SWIM Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 You hit one of SWIM's nerves... he'll get over it, same as I do... Yeah I will get over it, no doubt, over it all ready actually. Been dealing with sheer *stupid* in my home life... Failure to understand simple, basic common sense things is one of my triggers lately I guess... It's like being with someone touring a nuclear facility, seeing a big red button, with a "do not push" sign on it, and the person you are with asks; "you think we should push it?"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 I am gathering that you believe that if the universe was created by a god, than any location that is not able to ever be photographed serves no purpose to mankind. Is this correct? If I'm understanding you wrong, please clarify. Understand this: there are places we could never even get close to, even if we lived for trillions of years. It seems like a lot of waste. The total biomass of the human species, tallied up from the last couple of thousand years, is not even a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction ... of the universe mass. There are 70 sixtillion stars (at least) in the Universe. That's 70,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. IN other words. Compare that to number of people now living, or try to total up the number of people that have ever lived. There are billions of stars per person. If you add up all human beings the last 5,000 years, you maybe get to a number of 10 billion people. Compare that to the number of galaxies, which is around 100 billion. That means we all have at least 10 galaxies each! Don't you think this is a bit overkill just to create a sinful human being that God can send to Hell because they don't believe in him or obey his commands? Think about it! Someone said that this is more than the number of words ever spoken by mankind. So maybe if God has just a couple of trillion of stars to spell his name out there, it would have impressed us more. I can understand the feeling some people have that there could be some divine creator, but how the heck these things would lead to a specific cult called Christianity is beyond reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 I can understand the feeling some people have that there could be some divine creator, but how the heck these things would lead to a specific cult called Christianity is beyond reason. Man, that was well said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 For a couple of perspective moments Spot the dot... the earth from beyond the orbit of Saturn. The Cosmic Year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Tears in the rain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Oh, oh, oh, I can see me in that picture! ... NOT... And that picture is just the from a very close planet to us: Saturn. To view our planet from the edge of the solar system, is a black spot on a black background. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyx Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 I find violin music beyond beautiful, it affects me in ways no other music can. I move involuntarily, I have wonderful feelings and an utopian dream of the new world but other people think violin music is like ten thousand kittens scratching on a huge blackboard. This alone disproves instrinic beauty. I admire the Universe more than humanity (Though there is beauty in humanity) because it rolls along without malice or animosity over different things and doesn't give a shit what we punies think of it but keeping on showing wonders, so jaw dropping it is more eternal than the Pyramids of Giza, richer than the richest man's treasures, more praiseworthy than religion and *gasp* God! (If I was forced to worship something, it would be the Universe. Doesn't preach or grandstand, it just is. I sincerely hope we can go into space a la Star Trek or Futurama's Planet Express. Man, I'm becoming a child again as I think what if I was in a spaceship in a galaxy far far far away... *excited squeal*) Anyway the point of this is that though I love Universe's beauty, there are many people who doesn't care about it and would rather tan in the sun reading a Le Carre novel. That's okay. Each to his or her own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 And that picture is just the from a very close planet to us: Saturn. A tiny 4 billion miles...44 times the mean distance from the earth to the sun, that's 358 light minutes... so the earth shown there was 6 hours old when it was taken... the data then took another 6 hours, at 186000 miles per second, to get 'home'... and this is our neighbourhood... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyx Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 And that picture is just the from a very close planet to us: Saturn. A tiny 4 billion miles...44 times the mean distance from the earth to the sun, that's 358 light minutes... so the earth shown there was 6 hours old when it was taken... the data then took another 6 hours, at 186000 miles per second, to get 'home'... and this is our neighbourhood... I wept when I saw that picture, seriously. It is so grand! I weep happily when I see things of immense beauty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 BTW the figures are my own close approximations, based on NASA's 4 billion approximation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 A tiny 4 billion miles...44 times the mean distance from the earth to the sun, that's 358 light minutes... so the earth shown there was 6 hours old when it was taken... the data then took another 6 hours, at 186000 miles per second, to get 'home'... and this is our neighbourhood... Yup. Next door neighbor. Voyager I just recently entered interstellar space, and hence exited our solar system. And it was launched like 30 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 It'll be itneresting to see if it speeds up after it passes the solarwind bowshock... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 It'll be itneresting to see if it speeds up after it passes the solarwind bowshock... Indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Now take this natural response that played part in our evolution as a social species, and inject it particularly into our culture of mass-media and market-driven capitalistic society. The natural programming social signals of what is beautiful has become more self-serving and confused, than beneficial to the whole as it has in nature from the begging of our awakening as species. To me it’s no wonder there are such disconnects from ourselves in this environment - and what I believe, is a certain growing angst, or a longing to find this experience of nature - the desire for peace and the subsequent model of God to hang those desires on as a symbol of that to relate those feels to. In our modern world, the symbol of God has different meaning, and I feel it hugely centers on this underlying disconnect and anxiety. This paragraph explains a lot about this phenomena... http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/tech/main205.shtml Click on the video link on the main page. not sure what video you're referring to. there are several little ones to choose from. Which? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooligan Posted February 9, 2008 Author Share Posted February 9, 2008 This is my initial reaction: even though there are parts of the universe that we are unable to see does not mean that they weren't created for us. The fact that you even let this thought cross your mind, or even go so far as saying it in a post, tells my you are far to void of common-sense for a thoughtful discussion. The sheer, utter, unrestrained stupidity of that sentence made you plummet to the bottom of my respect meter. That is the most egotistical thing I think I have heard all day. Why (duh, cough, sputter..) in your wildest LSD laden trips, would you EVER think things beyond the possibility of any telescope EVER seeing it, could even remotely be possible to be created by a "god" FOR US (let alone anyone else)? I want the name of that drug! Kinda sorry I sorta defended you for making the OP... Well, it WAS a good question, minus the psychotic reply to just one of many good answers... I think it's getting time for the yellow squiggle... I am very clear that you do not believe in a god. Let me rephrase. The above post indicated that I am "void of common-sense" because I believe that even though there are locations in this and possibly other universes that cannot possibly be photographed, they still impact humans. They still are there, for us. It seems like you are saying that since we cannot see the explosions on the surface of a distant star, then the star serves no purpose. Would you say that if I had more common sense then I would have to realize anything beyond human sight, god would not create? A waste of time for him, maybe? Is it important for my belief in a creator that everything about the universe needs to eventually be known? I have no problem thinking that a god made a sweet universe then put us in, whether we figure it all out or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Let me rephrase. The above post indicated that I am "void of common-sense" because I believe that even though there are locations in this and possibly other universes that cannot possibly be photographed, they still impact humans. They still are there, for us. Correct. Though worded like that it was more of a statement, then a question. Yes you are understanding me right. It seems like you are saying that since we cannot see the explosions on the surface of a distant star, then the star serves no purpose. Would you say that if I had more common sense then I would have to realize anything beyond human sight, god would not create? A waste of time for him, maybe? Is it important for my belief in a creator that everything about the universe needs to eventually be known? I have no problem thinking that a god made a sweet universe then put us in, whether we figure it all out or not. Yup I am sure you have no problem at all with *not knowing* this is the xtian's theme song. When it can't be explained, praise gawd, when we figure something out, hooray for god, yippiee! Problem with that is you make a conscious decision to be closed minded and, to trust as truth unproven fiction. But you come here using *nature* as your proof. Well, you just had your *nature* handed back to you on a sliver platter, and now your all like, "is it important for my blah blah blah"... Is anything about you for real? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 I thought Cooley High wasn't coming back, and this question had gone to waste, so I'll repost it. QUOTE (Grandpa Harley @ Feb 6 2008, 02:56 PM) *QUOTE (Cooligan @ Feb 6 2008, 06:51 PM) * QUOTE (Dhampir @ Feb 6 2008, 02:48 PM) * ...Must it have been created because you find it beautiful, or do you find it beautiful because it was created? No, it's not a stupid or trick question. Because it is beautiful, I think it must have been created. Good question. and it is intrinsically beautiful HOW? I think it is intrinsically beautiful because I would bet every human has found at least one part of nature to be beautiful. I didn't write this with the intent to be convincing or original, as I didn't know that was a requirement for this forum. I wanted to engage people in conversation. Feel free to not read anything more I have to say. So essentially your inference that nature is beautiful because god created it, and us to appreciate it, is only that, an inference? Not evidence at all, and certainly not proof of your claim. I have a better question then: If god created nature, and he created us, is nature even beautiful at all? Or do we say it is because we have been created (in part) to marvel at god's work? That is, were we created to think it is beautiful, rather than it was created to BE what we think it is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 . Yup I am sure you have no problem at all with *not knowing* this is the xtian's theme song. When it can't be explained, praise gawd, when we figure something out, hooray for god, yippiee! Problem with that is you make a conscious decision to be closed minded and, to trust as truth unproven fiction. But you come here using *nature* as your proof. Well, you just had your *nature* handed back to you on a sliver platter, and now your all like, "is it important for my blah blah blah"... Is anything about you for real? If you look at our history the Xtian theme song is 'not meant to know'... It's interesting to note that he ignores the scale issue of his god. The only 'god' that ever got the scale fully correct is Azathoth, and that is because 'he' was thought up AFTER relativity... In fact the whole Carl Sagan post went with nary a ripple.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparrow Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 But doesn't it seem strange that something so beautiful to you and your family happened out of sheer luck? P.S. By the way, for everyone, no need to disprove creationism here, I believe in evolution. Honestly, it's probably been said before, but the point is that while much of nature is beautiful and awe inspiring, much of it is also pretty horrid. The way animals hunt and rip apart others. Just remember predator animals don't have some inate respect for the young and sick - they deliberately single out the young and sick. They'll single out a juvenille antelope, zebra, etc and once they have it surrounded, eat it alive - not even hearing its' screams. Parasites regularly destroy their hosts, diseases (which are infact natural) kill, mame and weaken the afflicted. Sure nature is wonderful and beautiful, but do consider there is another "side to the coin". If all of nature was just beautiful and there was no "dark side" to it, then I'd agree the question of "sheer luck" to be a rather insipid argument, but since much of nature is "red in tooth and claw" and diseases are nearly too numerous to mention, I'd argue that this is all "natural" (what I suspect you mean by sheer luck) and that nothing was required to create it all. The "bambi" effect is what it is called when people see only the "beauty" in nature. It's when you only see the fuffy baby lambs, the beautiful flowers and nice clouds in blue, clean skies. It omits the scorpions, the vultures and tornados. The bambi effect is responsible for the question "There is so much beauty, how could there possibly have been no god?" Spatz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 It's interesting to note that he ignores the scale issue of his god. Yeah, now he seems fixated on just how "offended" he should feel, rather then look at all the scale/persepective posts by us, as a combined effort, the dialog and pictures, I though we gave him something to really chew over! Now it's duck an run I-cant-know-gawds-mind time. The OP and most of his following posts were just a way of trying to steer US toward his gawd with the "awe of nature" approach. Well, he got it, with lots of bonuses, but does he reply about that? No, now he's more concerned on my opinion of his common-sense... sigh... oh well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Yup I am sure you have no problem at all with *not knowing* this is the xtian's theme song. When it can't be explained, praise gawd, when we figure something out, hooray for god, yippiee! Problem with that is you make a conscious decision to be closed minded and, to trust as truth unproven fiction. But you come here using *nature* as your proof. Well, you just had your *nature* handed back to you on a sliver platter, and now your all like, "is it important for my blah blah blah"... Is anything about you for real? I would say another wishy-washy universalist. Flipping and flopping about with the self-delusion that he can thereby make the atheists happy by not contradicting them but also keeping his god out there front and center. The Jesus-God thing is the only consistent thing I see in him--everything else is up for grabs. He concedes everything else when he sees himself losing. He will cede his own Self, his own intelligence without so much as blinking an eye--just so long as his precious god remains out there front and center, his precious jesus. That's all he is--a projection of what he thinks he should be. Therefore he can twist his nose like it's made of soft wax. If only he knew how disgusting he makes himself. But sure, he can stay if he like. But real he is not. He's just somewhat intelligent at plying his trade and playing his tricks. I'm learning something from the discussion he stimulates. Mostly, I can't follow scientific debate but the conversation here about the universe is basic enough for me to understand. THERE IS NO ROOM FOR GOD! Thanks, Hans, for the simple analogies and comparisons. It may seem like Godboy doesn't get it but others do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 It's interesting to note that he ignores the scale issue of his god. Maybe he doesn't but note my previous post. Someone--*I*--is getting it. I considered it important enough to post a link to my forums (see Feb 9 post in that thread). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Well, long as some one is benefitting from the whole thing, I'm happy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Well, long as some one is benefitting from the whole thing, I'm happy... Ditto! At least all this we have been saying is not "dust in the wind". I too am glad this whole thing was not a waste of time. Han, you never said if any of the other two asian eyes pictures came closer to hitting your "beautiful" meter, I choose one of them that was mixed European... hmmm Need some more examples? The-Doctor seemed to be "benefitting" from that portion of the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Well, some examples that I don't have socks older than would be good... and for those who Cooligan is pissing off (atypically, I'm still for divining this one a chance... call me a soft hearted sentimental old fool if you must...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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