The-Captain Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 We've been down this road before, Neo... Yes, several times, save your breath Neo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Actually Lutherans are a lot like Texas... some of them are quite sophisiticated and educated and other seem to spend their time wallowing in their indigent feculence while inbreeding... TBH, it's down to the Lutherans that most of the Biblical Criticism we have is extant (although they started losing clergy hand over fist until they moved the goal posts) In many ways the Lutherans are the unwilling fathers of the Jesus Seminar, the Jesus Project and their later incarnations... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open_Minded Posted February 11, 2008 Author Share Posted February 11, 2008 Actually Lutherans are a lot like Texas... some of them are quite sophisiticated and educated and other seem to spend their time wallowing in their indigent feculence while inbreeding... TBH, it's down to the Lutherans that most of the Biblical Criticism we have is extant (although they started losing clergy hand over fist until they moved the goal posts) In many ways the Lutherans are the unwilling fathers of the Jesus Seminar, the Jesus Project and their later incarnations... Thank you Grandpa - I appreciate your recognition of the high standards of Biblical Criticism in the Lutheran tradition. And I fully acknowledge we're "a lot like Texas". I do know in the more rural areas things are not quite so liberal as where I hale from - but, I also know that the Lutheran's ability to house such diverse opinions is pushing people to change and to think. And - I'm not so sure all Lutherans would consider the denomination an "unwilling father" of the Jesus Seminar and such. Many of us would be very willing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 I don't think they like Bob 'Jesus Never Existed' Price's end of the table I have a lot of Mad Bob's 'Chrsitan' books... his pre-Nicene Gospels are a must for anyone who wants to see tales of the man even the Romans thought was a man-God - Simon of Gitta (of Acts fame) There again, RMP's Chaosium/Wizard's Attic published 'Book of Eibon' and 'The Necronomicon' are enlightening as to how one can construct a working mythology from the fiction of Clark Ashton Smith and H.P. Lovecraft... The Necronomicon particularly being an exercise in establsihing beyond all reasonable doubt the provenance, history and factual accuracy of content of a book that really never existed, and of a pantheon that was literally one man's imagination... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 There is a spirit in man and the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding. Some call it rhema from the Greek or an epiphany, but many have experienced receiving a "knowing" that they never arrived at throught the normal means of reasoning and thought. Paul prayed that the eyes of our understanding would be enlightened by the Holy Spirit. Jesus said that flesh and blood has not revealed it unto you, but His Father in Heaven revealed it to you. We unconsciously proclaim "I see it" when we receive a flesh of knowing beyond what came through our mental processes. True knowledge of God can only come this way. All other knowledge can be figured out by our flesh and blood minds, but God inspires our spirit with the knowledge of Him. We can reject that spiritual knowledge or talk ourselves out of believing that we ever heard or saw. We can even relegate the knowledge of God as childhood fantasy. That too is our free will choice. John Hi John, Long time. Been busy, but will jump in tonight to respond to this. There are parts of me that understand, and in a way agrees, although not exactly as you frame it. I believe there is a way of moving through the world that is more "intuitive", if you will, as some would put that. However, it is not entirely separate from rationality. It's learning to listen with the "heart", if you will, which is more a sense of being in tune with more of the subtleties of life than what we can always necessarily process rationally. Is this spiritual knowledge? I'd say one could call it that, but not in any supernatural sense, but more a natural sense of a harmony that goes beyond just reasoning consciously - but to qualify, if it is examined it actually is rational. A lot of Biblical language reflects this sort of thing, even though it also operates outside just Christianity. You're just using Christian language signs to describe this human thing. That's fine. Just be careful about taking the signs so literally you dismiss those outside your tribal language. It's just one language to describe a human thing. Humans created that language. Those that see others who use different language signs to talk about it as not being spiritual or "knowing God", are in fact not grasping what the signs are pointing to at all. It's the difference between being religious and being "spiritual". Being spiritual is hearing with the heart, and anyone who uses theology to put people into boxes, is in fact not listening with their heart, and is in fact equally as "overly rational" as those they claim aren't spiritually minded. To be religious, is to be carnally minded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open_Minded Posted February 12, 2008 Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 Just be careful about taking the signs so literally you dismiss those outside your tribal language. It's just one language to describe a human thing. Humans created that language. Those that see others who use different language signs to talk about it as not being spiritual or "knowing God", are in fact not grasping what the signs are pointing to at all. It's the difference between being religious and being "spiritual". Being spiritual is hearing with the heart, and anyone who uses theology to put people into boxes, is in fact not listening with their heart, and is in fact equally as "overly rational" as those they claim aren't spiritually minded. To be religious, is to be carnally minded.Amen .... Antlerman ... Amen Which takes us back full circle to the OP: Religion is made up. Once you know this it is hard to be religious . You just can't justify all the rules and ruckus. I know because I keep trying. I keep telling myself religion matters. But it doesn't. You know what matters? Love matters. Compassion matters. Justice matters. Peace matters. Humility matters. Nature matters. Truth matters. Reality matters. You matter. So what do I do when I know religion is made up? First I remember that all philosophy and literature is made up as well. Second I remember that just because Plato invented the dialogues of Socrates, and Shakespeare invented Hamlet and Lear doesn't mean that Socrates, Hamlet, and Lear don't speak Truth. Fiction may preclude fact, but in no way does it obscure Truth. Religion is made up. At its best its stories have the potential to capture our imagination and feed our souls by revealing the best to which we humans can aspire. At its worst it can strip us of our humanity and invite us to make real the darkest fantasies we can conjure. Torah, Gospels, Qur'an, and Gita contain insights of such power, grandeur and wisdom that we say them come from God. They also contain the obscenely violent, misogynist, and xenophobic rants of fearful frightened men climbing to power over the dead bodies of their enemies. We can't free religion of either genius or madness, but we can free ourselves from mistaking them both for the Word of God. How? By realizing that religion is made up. No one goes to war over the meaning of Hamlet. No one kills another to decide whom Shakespeare loved best. If we admit that religion is made up we can enjoy it without being abused by it. If we admit that religion is made up we can honor myth without having to flatten it into fact. If we admit that religion is made up we can shake off the fear and violence it sanctions and address its one timeless message: do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Ok lets get on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kratos Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 AM, Hail and well met, my friend. I agree with most of what you say. In fact, many of us are on the same page of man "making-up" religion and I agree that religion is a product of the carnal mind. I stated earlier that religion is man's way of explaining their innate knowledge of God. I, also, agree with what you say about our spiritual mind being natural to man so in that sense, not supernatural. Here is where we probably disagree. Unlike most others here, my knowledge that religion is a product of man and the carnal mind does not negate my belief in God. If I knew God only through religious training as Kuro believes, then this would be a contradiction. But, as I have expressed, I do not believe that God can be known through the carnal mind or through religion. I met God experiencially and use the language of religion to help me to describe what happened to me after the fact. Second, if you describe being "natural" as that which is common to man, then I would agree and my belief that God has placed a spirit in every man and has given all men a way to know Him through this spirit bears this out. However, if you define "natural" as pertaining to the physical world than I would disagree. Our spiritual mind is not part of the natural world though it is a normal part of our make-up. Proverbs says that God "lights our candle" and John says that Jesus has "lightened every man who comes into the world". This "candle" to me is our spirit man and this light is the knowledge of God through Christ. We all have the candle so our spirit man is natural or normal to all of mankind, but most go through life oblivious of its existence as they have smothered His light through their over-exaltation of the carnal mind. I do think this is more so today than in generations past and will continue to increase as this darkness covers the earth and gross darkness its people. I have found in my missionary travels that most indigenous people intuitively are in touch with their spirit and that children of all lands start out life this way. However, there is a Kingdom of darkness that works hard to get men to "out grow" or to "evolve beyond" their primitive knowings of all kinds. Let me give a quick non-religious example of this tendancy that we see today. I was asked yesterday on another forum why I hunt. I explained that it is important to my humanity to stay in touch with the ancient predator in me so that I remain a part of nature and not some "supernatural" being above the animal kingdom. I explained the exhileration that I felt the first time after many years of bow hunting to realize that I usually saw or heard a deer before they did me and that I often smelled them before I either saw or heard them. This may be talking about "natural" instincts or skills, but they are from God and a part of who I am that I am not willing to loose. Go ahead and start the Neanderthal name calling. I just do not think that all evolution or change is in the right direction. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Here is where we probably disagree. Unlike most others here, my knowledge that religion is a product of man and the carnal mind does not negate my belief in God. If I knew God only through religious training as Kuro believes, then this would be a contradiction. But, as I have expressed, I do not believe that God can be known through the carnal mind or through religion. I met God experiencially and use the language of religion to help me to describe what happened to me after the fact. But Kratos, why then do you draw your knowledge about God from the Bible? These concepts of supernatrual spirits and innate knowledge of God are all derived from the Bible, a man made religous tool of the highest degree. You say that you met God through experience, what kind of experience? I enquired before about the nature of these experiences and spiritual knowings of yours in an earlier post. Again I'll assume that you are experiencing these things through natrual, physical, or mental processes right? What is your criteria for differentiating these from your natrual (i.e. carnal) thoughts? I cant argue with your belief, but have you seriously thought about these things in the most unbiased, open, "you could be wrong for once" part of your mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kratos Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 I shared my "testimony" before how I met Jesus when He came into my room and spoke to me. I had tried to find God through religion prior to this. In fact, I was surprised when I was speaking to a college counselor before graduation and was told that I could declare a double minor if I wanted to. I knew I would get my BS in chemistry and minor in mathematics, but he said that when he added up the electives I had chosen in my 4 years, I had earned a minor in comparative religion. This included classes in Zen Bhuddism, B'ahai, Hinduism, philosophy concerning God, as well as, the Bible as a historic and poetic book. I know that this is only my experience and how I define it, but what else do any of us have? There was a part of me that was always searching for God and did not find Him in religion. When He did reveal Himself to me, I searched for a way to explain what had happened to me and the Bible explained it best. We have all been around the mountains of "Why did He do this for you and not us" and "Why are you so special" etc. and I repeat that I do not know. Maybe I was just so dense spiritually that I needed such an intervention. But, I do believe that God is no respecter of persons and that He does reveal Himself to everyone that is made. The funny thing is that when I did come to "know Him" as He revealed himself to me spiritually, it never felt like a new revelation, but more of a remembering of what I had forgotten as a child or even in a pre-birth state. I feel that the development of the carnal mind develops a sort of amnesia of who God is and who we are in Him. We must overcome the carnal mind to remember what we have forgotten. I still do not find Him in religion, but know Him in the spirit. Sometimes religion helps me explain what He says and sometimes what I hear leads me to have to renounce some of what religion holds true. I think we all experience this process, but some loose their inner knowledge of God along the way and others just find new words to express what they have come to know about Him. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 But, I do believe that God is no respecter of persons and that He does reveal Himself to everyone that is made. Personally I believe that everyone's individual concept of god is an externalized version of their ideals and thoughts.... so please tell me that the "no" is a typo!!! Really though Kratos, I have no problem with you personally. In the limited view of you I see on these forums, I've seen you as a calm, well spoken and considerate man. I hope you dont view my questioning of your beliefs as an attack on you personally, frankly Im just curious about how your theology works on a personal level. I dont think we are that different really, we both are determined to live our lives as we see fit trusting that we either will or wont know in the end. Same idea, just different expectations and methods of deriving our respective values and ideas. I just worry that your beliefs (and their foundations) are leading you into a frustrating state of stagnation. From an outside perspective your idea of a spiritual mind that guides you look much like simple elitism and attaching supernatrual overtones to the workings of your mind, so as not to question them yourself. You use this to pick what truth there is in the bible and how you will live. Then when others question this you dismiss their objections on the grounds that they cannot understand your special revelation. That's all well and good (sorta) when you're picking out nice homilies that contribute to your benign version of xianity, but what about when your "spirit" leads you to believe something questionable (whats this I hear about the misogynist attitudes?). How far do you carry this belief in your own ideas, will you apply critical thinking to your own notions? Do your spiritual promptings ever change their stance? I havent read your personal testimony yet, where is it? I would like to better see where you're coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kratos Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Doc, I shared my testimony of how I met the Lord on one of my first threads to answer questions for others. I do not post outside the Colosseum and sometimes Lion's Den in respect to this being an X-Christian site and I am not an X. So I would not think it would be right for me to post my testimony here. Most of the "mysogyny" comments are just ad hominem attacks by those who can find no holes in what I have posted. I never mentioned anything in the area of male and female, but just introduced myself as a Christian. Then, right out of the blue, I was asked by some members what I thought about what the Bible says about women and homosexuals. I answered truthfully and now it is brought out to discredit whatever I say by those who cannot find it in them to just deal with the subject at hand whatever that may be. For example, just read back on this thread and you will see that some members throw the "mysogyny" or "homophobe" card whenever they cannot think of something to say on the subject about what I wrote. I am sure you know an ad hominem argument when you hear one. As far as my spiritual promptings ever changing my stance on things, I would have to say absolutely and every day. This is the whole point of growing up spiritually is to overcome the carnal mind with the mind of Christ. This means constantly changing your mind from darkness to light. For example, I was taught in Christianity that God was both a God of love and one who had created an eternal torture chamber for His own children to spend eternity. Knowing that religion comes from the carnal mind and must be challenged by the mind of the spirit, I asked God about it. He revealed that He never created such a place and will save all of His children from sin and the carnal mind. We were all with Him in the beginning and will be with Him in the end. This is just one example, but it is a big one. Of course, I had to leave the ministry over hearing this truth, but I am content to be a son of God and make my living acting as a real estate agent. This is far better than living of the gospel while avoiding the parts of the Bible that no longer bore witness with what I knew of God in my heart. This is what I mean by coming out of the carnal mind by the mind of the spirit. God revealed to me about Himself a truth so I had to relearn my religious language to line up with what I now knew experiencially about my God. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Most of the "mysogyny" comments are just ad hominem attacks by those who can find no holes in what I have posted. I never mentioned anything in the area of male and female, but just introduced myself as a Christian. Then, right out of the blue, I was asked by some members what I thought about what the Bible says about women and homosexuals. I answered truthfully and now it is brought out to discredit whatever I say by those who cannot find it in them to just deal with the subject at hand whatever that may be. This may seem out of the blue to you, but we do in fact have women and homosexuals, and transgendered people here who have been hurt by religion. Your opinions on these subjects does have an affect how we view you. I don't see why any of us should apologize for thinking your views on these subjects are stupid, ill supported, and just plain detrimental to society. For example, just read back on this thread and you will see that some members throw the "mysogyny" or "homophobe" card whenever they cannot think of something to say on the subject about what I wrote. I am sure you know an ad hominem argument when you hear one. It is a bit hypocritical of you to call others on ad hominem's when the entire substance of your position is built upon one large ad hominem. (namely, that we, meaning those who do not agree with you, are fundamentally flawed because of our inability to perceive this "spiritual reality" you are so certain is real) You can barely even speak two sentences without coming off as a smug elitist, who thinks everyone else here is a fool. It does nothing to help that (as I've pointed out on several occasions) most of your arguments are illogical, you say you have found a balance between the "spiritual" and the "carnal," but from what I can see, it seems that your beliefs are mostly based on emotion...it doesn't seem that the carnal (or rational) side of things plays into it much at all, at least judging by your ability to present rational arguments for your position. If there is a balance here I just don't see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kratos Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Kuro, I have stated my beliefs that a fool tries to explain God with intellectual arguments or explain science or mathematics through spirituals. This is the balance I have stated throughout. Thus, you again make my point by acknowledging that spirituals must be spiritually discerned and that the natural man cannot know the things of God. I never claimed there could be any baance of intellectually explaining the existence of God. It is oil and water. They do not mix. These are not ad hominem attacks because I have stated that we all have both a carnal and a spiritual mind. I am not elite or special because I have a spiritual as well as a carnal mind. You have both also or you could never be an ex-Christian since you had to have known Him once to be an X and you could not know Him except through the spirit. If you think this is not the truth that I speak, just look back to every time that a Christian wandered in here and stated that you all were never real Christians and never could have really known God in the first place or you never would have walked away. This is the fastest way to be jumped upon with both feet as many will call BS on this assumption and acknowledge that they did indeed once know Him. The fact that you all choose by your own free will to deny the spirit within you in favor or your intellectual pursuits is your life style choice. It has nothing to do with your inability to do otherwise. You all could go back to being spiritual whenever you wanted to. I just deny that you cannot still be intellectual while choosing to again be spiritual. How is this elitist or ad hominem? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 As a point of record... you introduced the whole Misogynist/ Homophobe thing by using Romans and Timothy... and you proved yourself to be just that with your opinions, opinions that are both primitive and barbaric all at the same time . As a personal note, it's not used when I can't address your arguments but simply because I enjoy watching you squirm... you have no 'good' reason for holding them and you know it so you get pissy. Some of your comments are not addressable, other than by either neurologist or a psychiatrist... for untrained sane people, it's like arguing with a schizophrenic that a purple cat is going to steal their car. In the end it's pointless and everyone just gets irritated... As to your continued presence here, it is an insult by implication... every damn post you make imples we didn't get the nature of the book when we damn well did... you're the poster boy of what it means to be a believer. If you pulled the same shit on any other board they'd pretty well ban you out of hand, since your version of 'Christianity' would result in a bigger cluster fuck, since you're basically claiming to be a new Paul ('Jesus walked into my room and spoke to me' BULL-SHIT... that effect is easily reproduced in a lab with infrasound and rotating magnetic fields...) Elitist - your claim Jesus chose you for special revelation - well this is the only Christianity related board you'd not be banned out of hand following a worst cluster fucking than you've had here. Pauline delusions are only accepted in old books... Insulting - Your continued espousal of beliefs that are yours alone as though they are the one Truth (although they may well be held by your demon haunted family... you not said, and since I regard it as terrible you've bred, I don't want to know... I spend too much time disliking humanity without having a NEW reason to think it's people like you who make me wish for the end of the species...) I'd say that you're right, your evolution is in the wrong direction... but it's more like Cromagnon than Neanderthal.... Neanderthals didn't use projectile weapons of that sort of penetration ability... The Fundie tag is earned, you wretched prosletyser. You are simply a walking offence to humanity. oh, and if this seems like a rough post for the Colosseum, it's because the level of Sermonising now, to me, places it in the Lion's Den, not the Colosseum... it's just syrupy nastiness now and I'm calling BULL SHIT on it being polite debate... AS A MODERATOR REQUEST... DO WE HAVE TO PUT UP WITH THIS ASS SERMONISING ON EVERY DAMNED POST HE MAKES> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 The fact that you all choose by your own free will to deny the spirit within you in favor or your intellectual pursuits is your life style choice. It has nothing to do with your inability to do otherwise. You all could go back to being spiritual whenever you wanted to. I just deny that you cannot still be intellectual while choosing to again be spiritual. How is this elitist or ad hominem? You have clearly not read my posts, leaving Christianity was not a choice, I simply could not believe in the unbelievable. I know you "deny" that once can not be intellectual and spiritual at the same time, but to me, actions speak louder than words. Your constant tendency to prop up your ideas with bad arguments, as well as some of the very poor beliefs you hold to be true (like on homosexuality) shows me where your loyalties lie, and it isn't with intellectual thought. I've stated on several occasions that you can't have it both ways, Even Jesus says that you can't serve two masters, when the spiritual and the intellectual contradict each other, one has to pick which to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Most of the "misogyny" comments are just ad hominem attacks by those who can find no holes in what I have posted. You see, this is TOTAL arrogance. Holes have been shot in your posts so much they look like swiss cheese, yet you claim "no holes" in what you have posted. This is why I *rarely* respond to you, not because you are so brilliant that you cannot be defeated, it's because you are so "deluded" you cannot be reached. In my honest opinion you have serious mental health issues. Since it is basically impossible for you to even acknowledge the holes shot into your logic, and your flamboyant claims of being visited by someone who does not even exist, makes you, at this point in time anyway, an exercise in futility. I, like gramps, think you belong in the lion's den, since your usefulness here is not knowledge, or spiritual truth, but rather a whipping post for those that *need* a whipping post to help them recover from the vile, godless, murderous, close-minded religion that IS christianity. But take heart, and I mean this in all sincerity, should you ever "wake up* from your delusion, you will be treated much better, perhaps even make friends with many of us. Not many of us hold grudges, if we did, we would all hate one another, since we all come from the same religion you are still ensnared by... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 The big thing I noticed here is that Kratos seems to want to have his cake and eat it too. He states that the spiritual and the carnal are separate spheres of thought and don't mix together (oil and water, as he put it), but has no problem saying things like "homosexuality is wrong" or "women should be submissive." He applies so called "spiritual knowledge" into real world issues, which according to his own argument should be treated as issues of "carnal knowledge" You can't have it both ways Kratos, either "spiritual knowledge" doesn't apply to the "carnal world" and thus you cannot use it to make any statements about others behavior, or it DOES apply to things in the "carnal world," in which case you can no longer claim that "spiritual knowledge" is outside the scope of intellectual inquiry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 If you think this is not the truth that I speak, just look back to every time that a Christian wandered in here and stated that you all were never real Christians and never could have really known God in the first place or you never would have walked away. This is the fastest way to be jumped upon with both feet as many will call BS on this assumption and acknowledge that they did indeed once know Him. None of us claim we knew Jesus, or God or whatever, we all believe the religion is false and we were misguided, what irritates us when people say this, is that they question our sincerity. You too, have done the exact same thing on occasion, in particular, you have suggested that all of us "really" know god exists, but are in denial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 The Fundie tag is earned, you wretched prosletyser. You are simply a walking offence to humanity. oh, and if this seems like a rough post for the Colosseum, it's because the level of Sermonising now, to me, places it in the Lion's Den, not the Colosseum... it's just syrupy nastiness now and I'm calling BULL SHIT on it being polite debate... AS A MODERATOR REQUEST... DO WE HAVE TO PUT UP WITH THIS ASS SERMONISNG ON EVERY DAMNED POST HE MAKES> And now as a moderator, I'll respond. The topic is one that Open_Minded started and is a good one that has continuing value. I don't see the need to toss it into the trash heap as a license for others to jump on one of the participants with full abandon. It's about the thread, not one participant. The fact that you all choose by your own free will to deny the spirit within you in favor or your intellectual pursuits is your life style choice. It has nothing to do with your inability to do otherwise. You all could go back to being spiritual whenever you wanted to. I just deny that you cannot still be intellectual while choosing to again be spiritual. How is this elitist or ad hominem? I want to offer a fuller response to your reply to my post later on as time permits, but for this post I just wanted to point out one thing. You should try to consider your word choice a little better above. It's really doubtful John that anyone of us has "denied the spirit with us" in favor of intellectual pursuits. The simplest way to understand this is what I believe, which is that it is precisely because we were not denying the spirit in us that we left. You need to understand our choice to leave was because something wasn't working. Does someone leave a love relationship for logic reasons, or for emotional ones, or perhaps a combination of both that includes the mind and the spirit? If you're not finding what you're looking for "spiritually", you're going to first try to make that relationship work, and if it fails you then you will move on to a new one. Haven't you yourself done this in parting ways with mainstream Christianity to become a Universalist? I say be careful in your word choice, because my journey from Christianity to where I am now has been a spiritual one at its heart - one where I've sought to be true to myself, satisfying both my mind and my spirit. To state that I, or any of us have shut ourselves off from our own spirit sounds as insulting as stating we were never sincere in our faith. It is a judgment of our sincerity. There is no way we are denying what's inside us. You should consider other ways to state what you're trying to say. I trust you don't mean to insult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 True... but there are the slice, splice and move functions available... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skankboy Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Spritual vs. Carnal = Excuse to believe in shit that don't exist. Please don't confuse the workings of your uncouncious mind with those of some unecessary external force. I know you think that epiphanies and such are somehow fundamentally different from those arrived at through logical progression, but if they don't jive with reality, they're still crap. Humans anthropomorphize. We're seem damned near hard-wired for it. How many people have a name and/or talk to their car? I really don't see in any difference in what you've done here. If I'm wrong, by all means let me know. IMOHO... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 OM I'm curious, what do you make of Kratos's beliefs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 and Antler, you didn't say whether we DO have to put up with this level of sermonising here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 OM I'm curious, what do you make of Kratos's beliefs? Indeed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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