Down With The Heathens True Christian Love Equals Identical Fantasies

[R. S. Martin]

From GraphisGuy's Quest for a Life, Post 50:

 

Heathen, to my knowledge, is not a religion but a general classification the good, god-fearing folks use for all of us. It is always used by them as a pejorative. Common usage defines the meaning.

 

- Chris

 

It's ironic, in my mind, in the context of these forums, anyway. Because when I was in the horse and buggy church context, any church people who were not identifiably Christian (read Mennonite) by their clothing, we called them heathens. Now I take it that a lot of these people that we called heathens would have been majorly offended because they saw themselves as fundamentalist Christians--the REAL Christians, whereas they saw us as an unenlightened dark-age backward culture trying to save ourselves by our works. I don't think anyone was any more stupid than anyone else. They're all one big batch of bickering religionists who can't make up their minds to co-exist peacefully with each other on the basis of their shared humanity. Only if they have identical fantasies can they tolerate each other. That, they think, is True Christian Love.

[Grandpa Harley]

I seem to remember that even when the Pagan Greeks used the term it was a pejorative, for savages who 'painted their arses blue and danced naked on heaths' (hence Heathens)

[R. S. Martin]

So that's why you keep referring to your lily white English arse.

[Grandpa Harley]

no, that's because it's one of my best features...

 

The Greeks were great satirists... the whole 'Chrisitian' thing is a title they gave the mish mash of nasty death cults as an insult... problem with dealing with a bunch to dumb to realise they've been shilled is they often think an insult is a complement...

[Sophronia]

I hate Wikipedia, but it is useful to determine what the "popular consensus" is on a certain topic.

 

Here's the disambiguation for Heathen:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heathen_%28disambiguation%29

 

Heathen or Heathenry may refer to:

 

A pagan

A modern adherent of Germanic neopaganism.

Other uses:

 

Heathen (band), a North American thrash metal band.

Heathen (album), by David Bowie.

 

Under this definition, Heathen is not a slur; it is an adherent of a religion.

 

That would be me.

 

I understand that not everyone is familiar with this, and may be more accustomed to hearing the word "Heathen" used to indicate any non-Christian. However, I think this Wikipedia entry is sufficient evidence to indicate an acceptable and, indeed, accepted usage of the word is in reference to a specific religious path.

 

A similar topic:

 

I was suprised a couple of years ago to hear that my friend's teenage children were using the word "Jew" as a slur.

 

They would call someone a "Jew" if they felt that person was somehow annoying or beneath them. The person in question might be of any religion. When I questioned the children on this matter, they indicated that the word "Jew" was very popular as an insult in their school.

 

There's also those people who use the word "gay" as a slur, not to indicate homosexuality, but to indicate something dumb or dorky. How does that make our gay brothers and sisters feel?

 

Ergo I would suggest that we should carefully examine the words that we use and consider how we might be using them in inappropriate or hurtful ways.

 

I realize that the purpose of this board is not to make everyone feel good, but to be ex-christians together. And I respect that. But I would also ask for respect in that this is not specifically an Atheist board. So though we might all have lost respect for the Christian path, perhaps we might try to have a little respect for other paths, considering that many ex-Christians do not become atheists but, rather, decide to explore alternative spiritual paths including Paganism and, yes, Heathenry.

 

I promise not to preach the gospel of Thor and Odin, and I will not force my spirituality upon others or tell others how to believe. But I am asking the other ex-Christians here to open their minds. Perhaps a certain word has other meanings than the ones you have previously learned. Perhaps the Christians have misrepresented the word "Heathen" just as they misrepresented so many other things to you.

[Grandpa Harley]

and Gay used to mean happy, to say someone was Black was a slur and to call the same man a 'negro' was a mark of respect.

[Sophronia]

and Gay used to mean happy, to say someone was Black was a slur and to call the same man a 'negro' was a mark of respect.

 

Yes, semantics are complicated given that language is almost constantly evolving.

 

I have Black friends who prefer to be called Black and others who prefer to be called African American. In general I try to find out what the individual's preference is.

[Grandpa Harley]

but where does it end... 'people of color' after a while it gets silly...

[R. S. Martin]

Sophrenia, I understand your point very well. However, you must admit that many words have more than one meaning. In that case, it helps to define which meaning is being used in a specific situation. I think in the OP I defined which meaning I meant to use in this thread. If it remains unclear, anyone is welcome to ask for clarification. I suggest you take your topic of Heathen religion to the Spirituality forum if you want to discuss it. That forum was set up specifically for this purpose last summer because some people felt there was no room on exC for their nonChristian spiritualities or religions.

 

In this thread I wanted to look at the irony of the various groups of xians calling other groups of xians heathens just because they didn't share their own fanstasies.

 

I guess I wasn't too clear about that. But wouldn't any parent think it ridiculous if their kids got into a fist fight just because they couldn't agree on the exact outcome a certain movie should have? Or even worse, if both were day-dreaming but each had a different day-dream and they got into a fight because they thought they should have the exact same day-dream?

 

That's exactly what the different xian groups do. Each thinks the other is bound for hell because they have a slightly different day-dream than themselves. They fantasize slightly different from themselves. So they correct each other out of LOVE. If it takes excommunication to express this love, so be it. Lots better to excommunicate a person and save the soul from hell (and bring on a mental illness or anxiety disorder due to the social pressure) than to let them go on in their folly and end up in everlasting torment.

 

(What I don't get is how a spirit can feel physical pain. In the story about the Thee Men in the Furnace they didn't feel the pain of the flames. I guess they were spirit. And I understand it's the spirit or soul element of the human that is supposed to survive death. In that case, there is nothing left to feel the pain of the flames of hell.)

 

So anyway, we've got all these denominations calling each other heathens because they don't agree on the exact same fantasies and they think christian love=identical fantasies. If the fantasies are not identical--by golly we'll MAKE them identical. We'll punish people UNTILL they conform. Such seem to be the thoughts of the bishops and people in power.

 

And they call it LOVE.

[Sophronia]

I apologize for hijacking your thread, Ruby. I did not understand what it was about. I was under the mistaken impression that you wished to discuss the meaning of the word "heathen".

[Aqua Kitty]

It's ironic, in my mind, in the context of these forums, anyway. Because when I was in the horse and buggy church context, any church people who were not identifiably Christian (read Mennonite) by their clothing, we called them heathens.

 

I'm curious about something. How do Mennonites feel about the Amish? Do they think they're "heathens?" They've got the horse & buggy thing going for them, and wear readily identifiable clothing. We have quite a few Amish & Mennonites around here, but I really don't know any well enough to ask. I've always thought of Mennonites as "Amish Lite," but I guess that just shows how little I know about the subject!

[R. S. Martin]

I apologize for hijacking your thread, Ruby. I did not understand what it was about. I was under the mistaken impression that you wished to discuss the meaning of the word "heathen".

 

Apology accepted. Sorry I wasn't clear.

[R. S. Martin]

It's ironic, in my mind, in the context of these forums, anyway. Because when I was in the horse and buggy church context, any church people who were not identifiably Christian (read Mennonite) by their clothing, we called them heathens.

 

I'm curious about something. How do Mennonites feel about the Amish? Do they think they're "heathens?" They've got the horse & buggy thing going for them, and wear readily identifiable clothing. We have quite a few Amish & Mennonites around here, but I really don't know any well enough to ask. I've always thought of Mennonites as "Amish Lite," but I guess that just shows how little I know about the subject!

 

No, definitely not. The Amish are seen a "people like us" because their dress and lifestyle is so similar. In Aylmer, Ontario they have a large publishing house where they publish three monthy magazines that are read around the world. They also have a bookstory in LaGrange, Indiana. I grew up on their literature, or literature they sold, though it was published by others. The differences beteen the horse and buddy Mennonites and horse and buddy Amish are many, though there are important differences, known mainly only to us. But we would NEVER call them heathen. That term was reserved for people who did not show by plain dress that they were Christians.

[Aqua Kitty]

One more question if you don't mind. Years ago I knew a Mennonite couple. They didn't have electricity at their farm, heated with wood burning stoves, etc., but they drove a truck and wore "ordinary" clothes - including shorts pants for the woman in the summer. So are there different sects/denominations of Mennonites - with some being less "observant"? (if that is the right word) And if so, would these people be seen as more "heathen"-ish to the "orthodox"?

[R. S. Martin]

Kitty, there are very many different sects or denominations of Mennonites. I haven't a clue how many. I see you are in Indiana. I have no idea what stand-alone sects exist in Indiana. What you describe does not sound like anything I would expect to fellowship with the group I come from, because you say they wear mainstream clothing, including short pants.

 

About "less observant." To determine degrees of observance we first have to determine a standard of "true Mennonite." The vast majority of Mennonites in the world are mainstream society--you can meet them on the street and not know they are Christian. Take a look at this website. Those college kids may or may not be Mennonite--there is no way to know without asking them.

 

The horse and buggy people would call them heathen, but they could be Mennonite all the same.

[Aqua Kitty]

I suppose Mennonites are like every other Christian denomination in that there is a lot of variation from congregation to congregation. Thank you!

[R. S. Martin]

I suppose Mennonites are like every other Christian denomination in that there is a lot of variation from congregation to congregation. Thank you!

 

Right! I think Mennonites are defined more by three specific articles of faith than anything else. These articles are: believer's baptism, pacifism, and non-swearing of the oath.

 

So far as I know, the Mennonite Church are the only mainline denomination that holds to all three of these articles of faith.

 

I think there are a few other smaller denominations that also hold to those articles of faith, namely the Amish and Hutterites.

 

There may be others, such as Bruderhof, but I don't know their beliefs so well.