Kelli Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 This stemmed from a thought I had from another thread. Though we XC's agree that Christianity is quite fucked up, typically we think that Islam is even more fucked up. I believe this is due to an unfamiliarity with the Islamic culture. Both religions are based on books that condone and even call for various forms of torture and even death for those considered to be infidels. Both religions are based on books that can be interpreted to mean and say just about anything. Both religions have their share of loons who take these teachings seriously and literally. Both religions have had their share of bloodshed. So what do you think? Which religion is the more fucked up religion, and why? Do either of them have ANY redeeming qualities? Kells Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 "Do either of them have ANY redeeming qualities?" Easiest to answer... not really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 I admit I don't know too much about Islam, but I really don't have a desire to. It seems like a big misogynistic mess. I see no redeeming qualities in Islam or Xianity, unless you go to the mystics and fringe people in both religions. Some of the Sufi writings and people like Meister Eckart who were not considered to be orthodox. Organized religons are a waste, a drain and in many ways a curse on human life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 I don't account Sufis as Islamic anymore than I regard Hermetic Gnostics as Christians... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Islam is currently where Christianity was several hundred years ago... The only tolerated option in its host culture, and a major tool used by the leaders to control a profoundly ignorant population. Eventually Islam will die as Christianity is dying, until the numbers of Muslims and Christians are comparable to the current numbers of Zoroastrians or Jains. They may never die out completely, but the fate of all religions is to become a footnote in a journal of cultural studies. In terms of direct effects on the majority of believers, Islam is currently the more fucked-up of the two. In terms of actual stupidity of beliefs, they're both in pretty rough shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 I'm not sure one is better than the other, but I will say that I think Islam is currently a bigger danger. Though I would argue that Christianity is better as a result of influences from modern secular thought, more so than from it growing up under its own strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Islam seems a bit more actively violent in the modern world. Xtianity had it's days in the limelight, like the crusades, iquisition, etc, but TODAY's world is islam's whipping boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted February 16, 2008 Super Moderator Share Posted February 16, 2008 Islam currently has some people who are obviously dangerous. Some Christians are just as dangerous, but more subtle, and smarter. Maybe that makes them more dangerous. Muslim crazies bomb busses and airports, Christian crazies legislate against freedom and instigate illegal wars. Verdict: both FUBAR, big time. Religion will eventually destroy the world, thus fulfilling prophecy. Cheers! - Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 So what do you think? Which religion is the more fucked up religion, and why? Do either of them have ANY redeeming qualities? Kells All the points you made are more than valid. Astreja makes a great point. I concur with the remarks about today's Islam being yesterday's Christianity in terms of how the game is played. My son asked me one time, "Dad, what's more dangerous - a rifle or a shotgun?" I told him he'd be just as dead if he was stupid with either weapon. But, for my money, the award for Most Fucked Up Religionâ„¢ goes to Islam. I make that bold statement based solely on the fact that none of the Westboro Baptist Church folks have rigged themselves up with explosives and wreaked their god's vengeance on the general public... yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuaiDan Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 "Truth is a pathless land." - J. Krishnamurti I really get that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 I agree with what Astreja says about the phase Islam is in. Religions and their respective cultures tend to focus on different parts of their dogma based on the circumstances of their people. At its apex the Islamic empires espoused rather different values, perhaps even progressive for the day. Things havent gone their way for the past centuries so those conquest and cultural superiority parts start looking better. In response to the OP both are just as bad at their root. Regardless of what parts of the book are idealized past and present, both religions have rotten cores. And those parts will resurface as long as people believe in these things, only a matter of when, where, and how. My Two CentsTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 So what do you think? Which religion is the more fucked up religion, and why? Do either of them have ANY redeeming qualities? Regarding doctrine, both are steaming piles of fecal matter. How their doctrines are lived and interpreted... now that makes a difference. To be fair I'll state it here as clear as possible: In both cults there are moderate/liberal believers who are basically fine. They may believe in certain things I don't (and vice versa), but they accept that others disagree. There are also braindead pure-bred morontheists in both cults who are a danger to any civilized society. You know the jebus cult nutcases better than I do, and I hope we all have the same degree of personal familiarity with those of the mohamed cult - namely none. Is there a difference? Well, some details of the dogmas are not the same indeed. I remember having found in the koran rules for how to perform a divorce - nothing like that in da babble. Now if only this was the only thing in that book... However, the fundamental nonsense is the same in both cults (eternal hell, war against all unbelievers, we know the crap). Currently, the braindead is-lame-ists are much more openly violent and bloodthirsty than their jebus cult counterparts... but as I see it that's only because they are the underdogs in the struggle against their brothers-in-morontheism. Should is-lame ever gain the upper hand and the jebus death cult become the smaller coven, I see no reason why their idiots should not stoop just as low (suicide bombings et al). And one can argue indeed that in certain parts of Africa (and maybe elsewhere too) this is already the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Kelli, Rather ironic that this quote showed up on my home page today: Ask a deeply religious Christian if he’d rather live next to a bearded Muslim that may or may not be plotting a terror attack, or an atheist that may or may not show him how to set up a wireless network in his house. On the scale of prejudice, atheists don’t seem so bad lately. - Scott Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 "Truth is a pathless land." - J. Krishnamurti I really get that. The truth is a damned strange animal... ask any three men who claim to have seen and you get four versions and no two the same... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuaiDan Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 "Truth is a pathless land." - J. Krishnamurti I really get that. The truth is a damned strange animal... ask any three men who claim to have seen and you get four versions and no two the same... The evening before I saw that quote, I was taking a walk through the city backstreets, with a friend, discussing antiquated cultural notions, particularly Chinese, e.g., a woman must be a virgin on her wedding night, a man must own a home prior to marriage if he lives in the city, or livestock if he lives in the country, etc. Be they cultural norms like those above, or some mathematical equation to describe a curve , but is not the curve itself, I said, these "truths" are rigid frameworks that give our limited monkey thoughts structure and enable us to do things efficiently. In fact they are not truth at all but pathways to lead us safely through the wild, "the wild" in this sense being more like that strange animal... Then I came home and saw Deva's quote. It was magnificent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Then I came home and saw Deva's quote. It was magnificent "Truth is a pathless land" comes from a really great speech delivered in 1929. Here is a link to the rest of it, if you are interested: http://www.prahlad.org/gallery/ommen_speech.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuaiDan Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Thanks! I'll read it now...might take awhile, as I like to slowly digest profound thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuaiDan Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 No man from outside can make you free - J. Krishnamurti Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds - Bob Marley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 The warm and fuzzieness of the religions are written between the orders to kill whomever does not believe. Therefore, I don't believe any religion with a history of murder, rape, mutilation, human sacrifice, is worth any respect. The amount of trouble these two religions cause humanity should be considered acts against humanity. I don't see any qualities of the religions I want to see in my family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathGeek Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 I had a fun Saturday with the elder statesmen and stateswomen of my family. This group of people has an odd backstory in and of itself which I won't go into right now. Somehow, we got on the topic of Islam and all hell broke loose. I never expected my grandmothers to be so adamantly disenchanted with one group of radical fucknuts. We all agree on one tenets: the people who practice Islam are practicing a faith that worships violence. Beyond that, there was no agreeing with them. My step-grandfather from the Isles was the most levelheaded one of the group, since he really didn't say much to totally edify the position. My step-grandmother handed me this pile of dung from that told me everything I wanted to know about how jihad was going to be the great undermining factor for Western Civilization in its current form. My sister (a soon-to-be lawyer and far more eloquent debater) and I just smiled and tried to write it off. I don't know her deal with Islam, but I think Islam is a dangerous belief system when the words are put into action. Before she left for home, she had the pamphlet in her hand and I told her take it with a grain of salt. I am in favor of outright torture and murder of terrorists who threaten the safety of any nation, be it Western or otherwise. I don't deliniate between the types of terrorists they are, they deserve a CZ75 right in the fleshy part of the chin and have their brains sprayed across the ceiling. I am not afraid of terror since the federal government has the available services to deal with any undesirables. For my own information, I am reading some other tome about the violence and rhetoric of Islam and it is already edifying my beliefs about religion in general. When it falls into the wrong hands, it becomes a force that must not be reckoned, it must be destroyed with extreme prejudice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 I had a fun Saturday with the elder statesmen and stateswomen of my family. This group of people has an odd backstory in and of itself which I won't go into right now. Somehow, we got on the topic of Islam and all hell broke loose. I never expected my grandmothers to be so adamantly disenchanted with one group of radical fucknuts. We all agree on one tenets: the people who practice Islam are practicing a faith that worships violence. Beyond that, there was no agreeing with them. My step-grandfather from the Isles was the most levelheaded one of the group, since he really didn't say much to totally edify the position. My step-grandmother handed me this pile of dung from that told me everything I wanted to know about how jihad was going to be the great undermining factor for Western Civilization in its current form. My sister (a soon-to-be lawyer and far more eloquent debater) and I just smiled and tried to write it off. I don't know her deal with Islam, but I think Islam is a dangerous belief system when the words are put into action. Before she left for home, she had the pamphlet in her hand and I told her take it with a grain of salt. I am in favor of outright torture and murder of terrorists who threaten the safety of any nation, be it Western or otherwise. I don't deliniate between the types of terrorists they are, they deserve a CZ75 right in the fleshy part of the chin and have their brains sprayed across the ceiling. I am not afraid of terror since the federal government has the available services to deal with any undesirables. For my own information, I am reading some other tome about the violence and rhetoric of Islam and it is already edifying my beliefs about religion in general. When it falls into the wrong hands, it becomes a force that must not be reckoned, it must be destroyed with extreme prejudice. Dove talk time Torture? Is it ever justifiable? Sure it can be expedient, but to borrow from a tired cliche, do the ends justify the means? Killing, detaining, torturing, imprisoning indefinetly, these should not be the tools of a civilized or moral nation. Alot of the "terrorists" we lock up and dehumanize arent even terrorists at all but unfortunate men that our Afgahn warlord, Pakistani dictator, and Iraqi police allies hand over to us as "results" in return for aid. Sometimes the terrorist label is clear cut, the man with the bomb, the guy taking potshots with his AK (and in some cases they really are rebels rather than terrorists). Other times not so much, when as a nation we institute policies that allow for such brutal actions, alot of innocent people get hurt too. Put yourself in their shoes, imagine that the American government is corrupt and abusive (well more so ), and a foreign power comes in to "clean house" then sets up an occupation. Regardless of who's right or wrong, instinctively alot of people will want to resist the foreign powers. Are they terrorists if they are waging guerilla warfare on their own turf? Of course that leaves out the true terrorists that kill their own people to make a point, but they still get the same label and treatment. My point if I have one, is that responding to the inhumanity of others with more of the same isnt right, and in the long run potentially more damaging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathGeek Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Dove talk time Torture? Is it ever justifiable? Sure it can be expedient, but to borrow from a tired cliche, do the ends justify the means? Killing, detaining, torturing, imprisoning indefinetly, these should not be the tools of a civilized or moral nation. Alot of the "terrorists" we lock up and dehumanize arent even terrorists at all but unfortunate men that our Afgahn warlord, Pakistani dictator, and Iraqi police allies hand over to us as "results" in return for aid. Sometimes the terrorist label is clear cut, the man with the bomb, the guy taking potshots with his AK (and in some cases they really are rebels rather than terrorists). Other times not so much, when as a nation we institute policies that allow for such brutal actions, alot of innocent people get hurt too. Put yourself in their shoes, imagine that the American government is corrupt and abusive (well more so ), and a foreign power comes in to "clean house" then sets up an occupation. Regardless of who's right or wrong, instinctively alot of people will want to resist the foreign powers. Are they terrorists if they are waging guerilla warfare on their own turf? Of course that leaves out the true terrorists that kill their own people to make a point, but they still get the same label and treatment. My point if I have one, is that responding to the inhumanity of others with more of the same isnt right, and in the long run potentially more damaging. Yeah, I was blowing off steam there. I know what you mean, but it is really difficult to get through to people who have been galvanized into war because 3,000 died on 9/11 and over 6,000+ soldiers have died in the subsequent conflicts. This is why I don't believe in the mantra of "Shoot first, ask questions later" but a military person isn't trained to think way. They are trained to think that anything with a weapon that is firing at them is a hostile target, despite their connection to the actual attacks. I really believe we are living in a time of clashing civilizations and Islam is the new threat that the West is facing however manufactured or overblown it may be. I have received a lot of firsthand information from my father about his time in Iraq and Kurdistan and it will just stun the uninformed person. This topic disturbs me to no end because I am not afraid of Muslims while my grandparents are. They grew up in times when discrimination was the right way of thinking. To them, it was correct to stereotype American citizens of Japanese, Italian and German extraction as enemy symphathizers because fear ruled the day and it has happened again. In theory, treating the other side with kindness and respect is a given but in times of terror and war, how can you reason with somebody when their fear button has been pressed? I am not afraid of a Muslim or a Christian theocracy because I know the American people and American government will not allow it. If another terrorist attack makes this nation bend to Sharia law, I guarantee anybody that I won't roll over when the blades of Jihad come for my throat. I have more fear of a disenchanted student coming and shooting up my school than a terrorist blowing up a bomb within those walls. Pragmatic thought is one thing, living in fear is another. My mother told me to think to wear my grandparent's shoes and realize their intentions are good, but their aim was far from accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Dove talk time Torture? Is it ever justifiable? Sure it can be expedient, but to borrow from a tired cliche, do the ends justify the means? Killing, detaining, torturing, imprisoning indefinetly, these should not be the tools of a civilized or moral nation. Alot of the "terrorists" we lock up and dehumanize arent even terrorists at all but unfortunate men that our Afgahn warlord, Pakistani dictator, and Iraqi police allies hand over to us as "results" in return for aid. Sometimes the terrorist label is clear cut, the man with the bomb, the guy taking potshots with his AK (and in some cases they really are rebels rather than terrorists). Other times not so much, when as a nation we institute policies that allow for such brutal actions, alot of innocent people get hurt too. Put yourself in their shoes, imagine that the American government is corrupt and abusive (well more so ), and a foreign power comes in to "clean house" then sets up an occupation. Regardless of who's right or wrong, instinctively alot of people will want to resist the foreign powers. Are they terrorists if they are waging guerilla warfare on their own turf? Of course that leaves out the true terrorists that kill their own people to make a point, but they still get the same label and treatment. My point if I have one, is that responding to the inhumanity of others with more of the same isnt right, and in the long run potentially more damaging. Yeah, I was blowing off steam there. I know what you mean, but it is really difficult to get through to people who have been galvanized into war because 3,000 died on 9/11 and over 6,000+ soldiers have died in the subsequent conflicts. This is why I don't believe in the mantra of "Shoot first, ask questions later" but a military person isn't trained to think way. They are trained to think that anything with a weapon that is firing at them is a hostile target, despite their connection to the actual attacks. I really believe we are living in a time of clashing civilizations and Islam is the new threat that the West is facing however manufactured or overblown it may be. I have received a lot of firsthand information from my father about his time in Iraq and Kurdistan and it will just stun the uninformed person. This topic disturbs me to no end because I am not afraid of Muslims while my grandparents are. They grew up in times when discrimination was the right way of thinking. To them, it was correct to stereotype American citizens of Japanese, Italian and German extraction as enemy symphathizers because fear ruled the day and it has happened again. In theory, treating the other side with kindness and respect is a given but in times of terror and war, how can you reason with somebody when their fear button has been pressed? I am not afraid of a Muslim or a Christian theocracy because I know the American people and American government will not allow it. If another terrorist attack makes this nation bend to Sharia law, I guarantee anybody that I won't roll over when the blades of Jihad come for my throat. I have more fear of a disenchanted student coming and shooting up my school than a terrorist blowing up a bomb within those walls. Pragmatic thought is one thing, living in fear is another. My mother told me to think to wear my grandparent's shoes and realize their intentions are good, but their aim was far from accurate. These are troubled times, its hard to know what to do. You're right about the fear though, I find that the most troubling aspect. Gramps if you happen to be reading this, would you mind linking that BBC documentary about the neocon movement? I forgot the exact name and site it was on, but I think it would be relevant to whats being discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamal Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 ='Kelli' date='Feb 15 2008, 05:25 PM' post='350269'Both religions are based on books that condone and even call for various forms of torture and even death for those considered to be infidels. These four verses of Quran, which I quoted without any explanation and interpretation, are about killing unbelievers. How do you regard them? "They (unbelievers) would love for you to disbelieve just as they disbelieve, so you will be exactly like them. Do not adopt sponsors from among them until they migrate along God's way. If they should ever turn against you, then seize them and kill them wherever you may find them. Do not adopt any sponsor nor supporter from among them, 4:89 except those who join a folk with whom you have a treaty or who come to you because their breasts shrink from fighting you or fighting with their own people. If God so wished, He would have given them authority over you so that they would have fought you. Yet if they keep aloof from you and do not fight you, and they propose peace to you, God does not grant you any way against them. 4:90 You will find others who want to feel safe from you as well as safe from their own people, yet every time they come upon another chance for dissension, they plunge into it. If they neither keep aloof from you nor yet propose peace to you and hold back their hands, then take them and slay them wherever you may run across them. Over such persons We have given you clear authority". 4:91 "The number of months with God is twelve: [they were] in God's book on the day He created Heaven and Earth. Out of them, four are sacred; such is the established religion. Do not harm yourselves during them, yet fight associators to a finish, just as they fight you to a finish. Know that God stands by the heedful". 9:36 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 These four verses of Quran, which I quoted without any explanation and interpretation, are about killing unbelievers. How do you regard them? Since you asked -- sounds like a bunch of crap to me. How do you regard them? And why are you here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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