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The Origin Of Jesus


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I had a whole post typed up to respond with, but since this is Ex-Christian Theism or Spirituality and not the Lion's Den, I'll simply ask this instead...

 

rpMM, what do you believe to be the meaning of life?

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I think you're slightly confused. I think a more accurate description would be if morals were absolute, there wouldn't be a scale because all morals would be on the same number. After all, wasn't it Jesus who said that all sins are the same in the eyes of the Lord? Isn't that what people typically mean when they refer to moral absolutes, especially those that you claim are "true Christian values"?

I think some morals can be right or wrong, while some can be seen as better or worse. It depends on the context. But even when I say one moral action is "better" than another one, I can only claim that if there is a standard to compare to.

 

And please stop quoting from the Bible when I already said I don't adhere to it.

 

Like I said before, hardly anything can be proven. I have my reasons for believing what I do about morality, but I could never prove them.
Then, why are you demanding us to accept your opinion that morals without God are meaningless if you can't prove that they are?

I said I can't prove that morals are absolute. However, the fact that no God implies ultimate meaningless is pretty much common sense.

 

And stop trying to use the Euthryphro dilemma - God didn't create morality, and neither is it a separate entity. I can say that the moral law is "eternally bound" to God and avoid both those issues.
That makes no logical sense.

Please elaborate.

 

I'm not sure I understand. It sounds like you're saying I shouldn't believe that my own morals are true. And the difference between most Christians and I is that other Christians will try and justify or re-interpret parts of the Bible they don't like. I plain and simple just reject those parts.
I never said you shouldn't believe that your morals are true if they work for you. But you aren't just stating that you believe these are your morals. You're trying to enforce your moral worldview on us and demanding that we accept that our morals are meaningless if we don't accept your worldview. But if you want us to accept your worldview as the only acceptable one, you're going to have to do a lot better than coming up with pointless pseudo-philosophical word games to prove to us why your worldview is the only one with meaning. And if you can't prove anything like you say, then why are you demanding us to accept it?

Like I said, I can't prove that my world-view is true - but, if atheism is true, there are no real morals or values. And if there are no real morals or values, then there can be no real meaning. That much I know.

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I had a whole post typed up to respond with, but since this is Ex-Christian Theism or Spirituality and not the Lion's Den, I'll simply ask this instead...

 

rpMM, what do you believe to be the meaning of life?

Can't help you there, still trying to figure it out myself :grin: .

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I think some morals can be right or wrong, while some can be seen as better or worse. It depends on the context. But even when I say one moral action is "better" than another one, I can only claim that if there is a standard to compare to.
If you can only claim that if you have a standard to compare it to, then what standard are you using to compare moral absolutes to in order to claim that morality is absolute? What standard are you using to compare the meaning of morality to when you claim God is needed for morality?

 

 

 

I said I can't prove that morals are absolute. However, the fact that no God implies ultimate meaningless is pretty much common sense.
The word in bold is the key word there. Implied, not proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, but implied. If it's only implied to you that morality is meaningless without God, then how can it be common sense? If I say, "it's implied that if kids behave all year, that proves there is a Santa Claus because behaving would be meaningless without Santa Claus", does that suddenly mean it's common sense that everyone knows there is a Santa Claus? No matter if it's implied to you that morality is meaningless without God, it does not prove it necessarily is so. You yourself said you can't prove that morals are absolute. If you can't prove anything about morality, then why do you make baseless statements that are only implied, not factual truth, about the meaning of morality?

 

Please elaborate.
If God created the universe, then morality was created by God, since morality is apart of the universe, hence it is logically impossible for morality to exist without having been created by God. Either morality is a separate entity from God or God created morality. Unless you're implying that morality is God and that you worship morality rather than some sentient creator? Or if you're implying that morality is God, are you implying that morality is a sentient being or that the creator of the universe isn't sentient?

 

 

Like I said, I can't prove that my world-view is true - but, if atheism is true, there are no real morals or values. And if there are no real morals or values, then there can be no real meaning. That much I know.
That makes no sense. If you can't prove that your worldview is true, then you can't prove that morality is meaningless without God, since your claim that God is needed for morality IS part of your worldview. Hence, if you can't prove your worldview is true, then you can't prove that morality is meaningless for atheists because that is what you've stated your worldview is. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. And if morals must be given to us by a divine being in order to give morality meaning, do they really have meaning to us as people or do they only have meaning to the being that gave them to us, thus morality is meaningless if it's given to us by a divine being because it only serves the needs of the divine being and not us?
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Like I said, I can't prove that my world-view is true - but, if atheism is true, there are no real morals or values. And if there are no real morals or values, then there can be no real meaning. That much I know.

Damn. I feel so tempted to get into this debate again. I wrote a long rebuttal, but I just don't have time to argue this.

 

So after deleting my other response, since it was a bit too long, I will try to make a short one and see if it makes sense:

 

Absolute morals could exist, but a God isn't a requirement for them to exist. Just like math, it exists, because it just does; there's nothing that suggests that it has to be an innate nature of a superior divine being for math to be able to exist.

 

Morality enables a God to exist, but God isn't a requirement for morals to exist (even if they're some absolute ones).

 

Give the reason why morals must have a God? The only one I can think of is that God is the "creator" of morals. Basically, morals require a designer or intellect to be able to come into being. But if they exist as a part of God's nature from eternity, then why doesn't morals have to be a "nature" of someone/something to exist? Does the perfect circle have to exist in a parallel universe for Pi to be true?

 

I believe morality can be explained by game theory, where there are proof made, mathematical, that certain rules of the game are more beneficial for everyone. These rules are absolute, and can be said to be the absolute morals. Now, this means, God is math. Maybe Pi is his name? The holy trinity of Pi, e and i.

 

Basically, you say, the imaginary number can only exist if square root of -1 is represented by some form of embodiment somewhere. It must be corporeal for it to be true. Like morals, must have a body of some being that contains it, or it can't be true. Then how about "1"? Can you show me the absolute, and original, the embodiment of number 1? If you can't, then math can't exist! (bad argument, isn't it?)

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rpMM, what do you believe to be the meaning of life?

Can't help you there, still trying to figure it out myself :grin: .

I had to become an atheist to find it. ;)

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  • 1 month later...
A better summary is this:

 

There were several gods in the ancient world that were portrayed as dying and rising to life again - including Osiris, Attis, Adonis, Tammuz and Dionysus/Bacchus

 

The cults of these gods often took the form of 'mystery' religions, where the events of this death and resurrection were staged for the benefit of the believers and they felt that they participated in the death and resurrection of the god and so achieved a renewed spiritual life. These mystery religions also involved the partaking of a holy meal - often of bread and wine.

 

The gods died in many ways - Osiris was locked in a coffin by Set, Dionysus was ripped apart, Attis was 'hung on a tree'

 

But certain details are spookily similar to Christian stories about Jesus. Dionysus for example was portrayed in a purple robe and with a crown of leaves. Can this have anything to do with the gospel portrayal of Jesus being given a crown of thorns and the soldiers putting a purple robe on him to mock him?

 

the cult of Mithras is interesting because it doesn't seem to have a dying and resurrecting god as such. But Mithras was supposed to preside over the final judgement, when his worshippers would be resurrected from the dead to be judged by Mithras when he returned to earth at the end times.

 

Many of the miracles that Jesus was said to have performed are remarkably similar to miracles said to have been performed by pagan holymen in the Ancient Greek and Roman world.

 

All things considered - it seems that the Jesus story is a patchwork synthesis of various pagan myths, as if certain Jewish messianists of the time were trying to create their own Jewish mystery religion around an imaginary messiah figure.

 

:)

 

As a fundi beginning to ask questions, could you pehaps provide some sources where I could read about these other gods? Thanks.

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As a fundi beginning to ask questions, could you pehaps provide some sources where I could read about these other gods? Thanks.

 

I initially got a lot of information on that stuff from a book called 'Jesus Mysteries' by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy.

 

I've tried to check up on some of what they say though - and a lot of it is dubious.

 

But some of it (namely what I mentioned in my post) can be found out from studying a bit of mythology. I'm sure wikipedia could be useful. I'm not really sure - I find bits and pieces of information all over the place and then often forgot where I found it out from.

 

But I do try to be intelligent when I read - rather than just gullible ;)

 

Not very helpful of me. Sorry.

 

FWIW I have changed my views a little since I wrote that. I now believe that there was a real Jesus character behind the gospel accounts. But I still say that a large amount of Paul's theology and a fair amount of what's in the gospels comes from mystery religion sources.

 

Honestly when you strip away the mythology, Pauline theology and stuff from other sources (such as the Qumran community or similar sects) - there's not a lot of the real Jesus left. I think he's still there just about - a charismatic preacher/messiah with a way with words and a fondness of winding up the authorities and he probably was executed for his part in a zealot uprising. But most of what's in the gospels seems to come from other sources.

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  • 3 years later...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aW2N46vf4Q&feature=related

 

This vid seems to get banned quite a bit, but here it is. It explains "Mithras (named after Mithra)", these are people, prophets and saviours who throughout history, arrived on the "scene" in amazingly similar circumstances.

 

Now, to complement this vid, here is a list of gods that share the same story structure as the jesus tale:

 

Important note: ALL of these religious figures were around, with THEIR stories many years BEFORE jesus was even a gleam in daddies eye, most of them over 1000 years before jeebus!

 

1. His mother was a virgin woman: Jesus, Attis, Buddha, Dionysus, Krishna, Mithra, Zoroaster

2. He was born on December 25: Jesus, Attis, Buddha, Dionysus, Horus, Krishna, Mithra

3. His earthly (adopted) father was a carpenter: Jesus, Krishna

4. His birth was signaled by a heavenly star: Jesus, Buddha, Horus, Krishna

5. At his birth, shepherds presented him with gifts: Jesus, Buddha, Horus, Krishna, Mithra

6. He was born in a manger or a cave: Jesus, Dionysus, Mithra

7. As a baby, he is declared a king. Wise men present him with gifts of gold: Jesus, Buddha, Krishna

8. Angels or other good divine spirits sang songs or danced at his birth: Jesus, Buddha, Krishna

9. He was threatened by a king or tyrant who tried to kill him as an infant: Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Moses

10. He was of royal lineage: Jesus, Buddha, Horus

11. He taught at the temple as a child and astounded all who heard him with his wisdom: Jesus, Buddha, Horus, Zoroaster

12. He was baptized at a river: Jesus, Buddha, Horus, Zoroaster

13. His hapless baptizer is later decapitated: Jesus, Horus

14. He was tempted in the wilderness by the devil: Jesus, Zoroaster

15. He was a traveling teacher of great wisdom: Jesus, Buddha, Dionysus, Mithra

16. His ministry preached a message of charity, peace and love. He lived in poverty and loved the poor: Jesus, Krishna

17. He taught of heaven and hell, revealed mysteries, resurrection, judgment, salvation and the apocalypse: Jesus, Zoroaster

18. He gave a famous sermon on a mountain: Jesus, Horus

19. He had 12 disciples: Jesus, Horus, Mithra

20. He gave his disciples the power to work miracles: Jesus, Krishna

21. He was transfigured in front of his disciples, sometimes described as shining as the sun: Jesus, Buddha, Horus, Krishna

22. He healed the sick and the injured: Jesus, Buddha, Horus, Krishna, Mithra, Serapis, Zoroaster

23. He cast out demons: Jesus, Horus, Zoroaster

24. He fed hundreds or thousands with magically generated food: Jesus, Buddha

25. He walked on water: Jesus, Buddha, Horus

26. He brought back the dead: Jesus, Horus

27. He turned water into wine: Jesus, Dionysus

28. His followers were admonished to take vows of poverty and renounce worldly desires: Jesus, Buddha

29. He was called such exalted titles as "Lord", "Master", "Light of the World", "Holy One", "Redeemer", "The Way", "The Truth", etc.: Jesus, Buddha, Dionysus, Horus, Krishna, Mithra

30. He is called "Logos" or "The Word": Jesus, Horus, Krishna, Mithra, Prometheus, Zoroaster

31. He was called "the anointed one" (how "Christ" translates): Jesus, Dionysus, Horus

32. He was known to his followers as a Shepherd of Humanity: Jesus, Buddha, Horus, Mithra, Serapis

33. He was known as a fisher, associated with the fish: Jesus, Horus

34. He's identified with the ram or lamb: Jesus, Dionysus, Horus, Mithra

35. He's identified with the lion: Jesus, Horus, Krishna, Mithra

36. He came not to destroy but to fulfill the law: Jesus, Buddha, Horus

37. He rode in a triumphal procession on a donkey: Jesus, Dionysus

38. He condemned the clergy for their ambition and hypocrisy. He would later fall victim to their scheming: Jesus, Krishna

39. He crushed a serpent's head: Jesus, Buddha, Krishna

40. Declared the savior of humanity, slain for our salvation: Jesus, Attis, Krishna, Mithra

41. He sometimes is known by a heart symbol: Jesus, Krishna

42. His body and/or blood is consumed through bread/wine in a symbolic ritual: Jesus, Attis, Dionysus, Mithra, Zoroaster

43. He had a sacred cup or grail: Jesus, Zoroaster

44. He died while hung from a cross or a tree: Jesus, Attis, Buddha, Dionysus, Horus, Krishna

45. His good friend, a fisherman named Peter/Petraeus, would desert him: Jesus, Prometheus

46. He was crucified between two thieves: Jesus, Horus, Krishna

47. He was around the age of 30 when he was crucified: Jesus, Krishna

48. At his death, the sun darkened or there were other grim supernatural signs: Jesus, Krishna

49. He went to the underworld for three days: Jesus, Attis, Mithra

50. He was resurrected: Jesus, Attis, Buddha, Dionysus, Horus, Krishna, Mithra

51. He was resurrected during the springtime, the date of which would become a day of celebration among his followers: Jesus, Attis, Dionysus, Mithra

52. His sacred day is Sunday: Jesus, Mithra

53. He is the second part of a divine trinity and/or considered to be one with his father god: Jesus, Attis, Krishna

54. He promises to return one day: Jesus, Buddha, Horus, Krishna, Zoroaster

55. When he comes again, he will ride on a white horse to do battle with the prince of evil: Jesus, Krishna

 

It would *appear* our old buddy jesus was just more of the same.

 

Horus strikes me as THE most similar, he was on the scene over 1000 years before jesus...

 

I think the reason this video keeps getting banned is because it's a plagerism of ZEITGEIST: THE MOVIE. And doesn't credit the movie. I'm guessing.

 

Vist ZEITGEIST THE MOVIE for the full 30 minute video!!!

 

Here is another:

 

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/sD9f0XU_S78" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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