Lightbearer Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Because I got into a heated debate with some friends about this tonight, I wanted to ask everyones thoughts and opinions on "Freedom" what is absolute freedom, what does it imply, is it only an ideal, or something we should work for? [Answers must be 12 point font, double spaced, must have a title, a body and a conclusion and at least 5 sources..... Nah I'm just kidding! ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Because I got into a heated debate with some friends about this tonight, I wanted to ask everyones thoughts and opinions on "Freedom" what is absolute freedom, what does it imply, is it only an ideal, or something we should work for? [Answers must be 12 point font, double spaced, must have a title, a body and a conclusion and at least 5 sources..... Nah I'm just kidding! ] It's one of those things that means different things to different people. Some will argue til their blue in the face that Freedom is Slavery. Some will advocate government control and believe the government gives us our freedom, when the truth is the Constitution is there as a restraint upon government. It was purposely designed to limit government. People like myself believe the less government the better. I can pursue my own happiness and don't need government permission to exercise my own happiness. As long as one understands and recognizes that freedom stops at the end of your nose the better we'll all be for it. Some support Freedom of speech only when that speech agrees with them. Some also support free speech zones, and will claim this is a freedom. Some support Freedom of Religion only when that Religion agrees with them, they also would love to outlaw some religions or non-believers. Some support a free press so long as it doesn't make their pet elected officials look to awfully bad Some only support the second amendment for the Law enforcement or believe it exists just for hunting rabbits. Some believe the 4th Amendment is only there if you have nothing to hide, and believes it should be over looked for the better of country. Some no longer believe in the right of a fair trial, and believe that anyone with the label of terrorist should be tortured and sentenced to life in prison, or death, IF they are accused they must be guilty. Some believe I'm obligated to pay for pork programs of which I personally disagree with by force of the IRS, because those people believe they have entitlements to pick my pockets for their own good. I could go on and on with the "Freedom" issues, Freedom to me is not being in Chains, freedom to others is big brother government nanny staters who want a free ride. That's my $0.02 anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Because I got into a heated debate with some friends about this tonight, I wanted to ask everyones thoughts and opinions on "Freedom" what is absolute freedom, what does it imply, is it only an ideal, or something we should work for? [Answers must be 12 point font, double spaced, must have a title, a body and a conclusion and at least 5 sources..... Nah I'm just kidding! ] Nobody anywhere is absolutely free. We all must stay within certain parameters, for example, you are not free to kill or steal in any society (just to name 2). All freedom has a cost. Nothing is truely free. so imo absolute freedom does not exisit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Nobody anywhere is absolutely free. We all must stay within certain parameters, for example, you are not free to kill or steal in any society (just to name 2). All freedom has a cost. Nothing is truely free. so imo absolute freedom does not exisit. As I say, Freedom ends at the tip of your nose. Once you pass your own nose you start infringing on others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Because I got into a heated debate with some friends about this tonight, I wanted to ask everyones thoughts and opinions on "Freedom" what is absolute freedom, what does it imply, is it only an ideal, or something we should work for? True freedom can't exist along with a society. If you were truly free to do whatever you liked then you could kill people (and they you) but a society would fail to thrive in such an environment. So society puts limits on freedoms in order for the society to be able to function. The trick is finding a balance between freedom and society that most can live with. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 I think there are at least two sides to this question of freedom. There is the question of how free a society can we have and then there is the quality of an inner, subjective freedom. Outer freedom and inner freedom, if you will. Inner freedom example - we freed our minds of Christian dogma. Freedom to not be affected and enslaved by the changing fortunes and happenings of life. Inner freedom is related to an ability to see the true nature of things as they are and not let thoughts enslave your mind. I don't think there is such a thing as absolute freedom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest debtor2grace Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 “Between stimulus and response, man has the freedom to choose.†– Victor Frankl, Holocaust survivor The wide vernacular and conceptual capacity of the English language, the mental stability to be assured of the accuracy of one’s perceptions, the opportunity (and capability) to make much of the resources available in America’s schools and libraries… these represent some of what I understand to be personal freedoms. The degree to which the government exercises control doesn't concern me much - perhaps it ought - because it can do very little to interfere with intellectual freedom. Imagination as well, though that tends toward escapism. At this point in my life, singleness also represents a degree of freedom that I’m grateful for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 This essay is interesting: "Freedom" and "Liberty" Are Not the Same ThingPaul V. Hartman Freedom is the exemption from control by some other person, or from arbitrary restriction of specific defined rights like Worship, or Speech. Liberty is the sum of the rights possessed in common by the people of a community/state/nation as they apply to its government, and/or the expectation that a nation's people have of exemption from control by a foreign power. Freedoms are things that people EXTRACT from their government; Liberty is less derivative, more formative; a thing GRANTED by the people to the people in common. The ability to Assemble, for instance, while commonly thought of as a freedom, is really an aspect of liberty. Freedoms end when they encounter a contrary freedom of another person. You are free to smoke, until you encounter my freedom not to inhale your smoke. Liberty lacks that distinction: my liberty never contradicts or limits yours. Conservatives traditionally support Liberty, but they may tend to be pliant about certain freedoms, aware as they are to the potentional dissonance. Rousseau argued that people are forced to be free. He meant that we in society have a social contract with one another. If a member of society gets out of line by say stealing his neighbor's chickens, he is forced to give restitution and is hence punished for dishonoring the social contract. This is just a long way of saying that he is forced to behave in public. Thus, forced to be free insomuch as a workable society is designed to keep its members free from chaos and self interested pain inflicted by outlier members. Liberty, in contrast, would be the opposite. Pure anarchy where the strongest enjoys the largest amounts of liberty and the weakest suffer the largest lack of freedom. Pure forced freedom = fascism. Pure liberty = anarchy and chaos. Modern society seeks a balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Freedom is the right to enjoy life without having to meet impossible expectations. Five Sources: 1. Me 2. Myself 3. I 4. Personal Experience 5. My Own Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Freedom to decide for myself what is right, and to live with the consequences of my actions. IMO we are all free no matter what for we all have the ability to choose. Its just a question of how tolerant of freedom a society will be. Heres a Heinlen quote that I find relevant, someone on this site uses it as a sig but I cant remember who. "I am a free man, regardless of what set of rules surround me. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." -Robert Heinlen A strange guy but he had some good ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonolithTMA Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 What a great discussion! As we can see, freedom is one of those words in the English language that sounds great, but is tough to nail down. I can't be truly, completely free. I can't fly like superman or teleport to other universes in the blink of an eye. I guess we live our lives as freely as we can within the constraints we've chosen or those that are forced upon us by society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Vig, Anarchy isn't a "Lack of Rules" ... Moreso a "Lack of Rulers". All, I'd sure prefer a world where friends and family were a bazillion miles away, no neighbors, no neighbors noisy cars, stereos and kids, and no one pounding on my door selling shit. Problem with that world is, well, simply, it is g o ne gone.. i can choose to move to an even more rural part of Oregon, Idaho, or Montana if I so choose, but even there places where once can "get away from it all" are bought up by folks with lot of coinage, looking, well.. to "Get Away From It All". Thing too manufacturing and medical miracles keep me alive and in hobbies, work and fun. Kinda hard to make left handed doddliesquat thingamatwirls and have no place to peddle them without shipping to a disinterested in your profit middleman. Computers, vehicles, dogs and shooting take a lot of the cream of manufacturing to continue going. walking away from a world sans supply lines for those events just isn't desired. Now.. Then.. what pisses me off is the long line and littany of shitty punkassed lardheads who just seem not to be able to keep their fuckin' lives out of mine. Noise, harrasment, theft, and bullshit of all kids are received here at haciendaFatman by folks who just *hafta* go about being stupid. System provides them the Right to Legal Representation no matter how small or large their assholianess provides. I have to pay geld, coinage for my legal help, they get theirs, contra me and mine, at taxpayers expense. hard to win, even when the cretins admit or confess to "messin' with the mean_old_man". Simply want to be lef the fuck alone, save for those invited into my life or residence. Those invites, real.whirrled or electronic aren't given out easily. I prefer that. What you see here at ExC is about what you get anywhere else. I'll leave you alone. Prefer you extend same courtesy. If not, you were warned with several signs on periphery of property. See my .sig if so inclined to scroll past this bullshit. kFL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Oh that was Skip's signature I was quoting. Good sig that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Define Freedom Freedom is a state of mind. One can be free anywhere, under any circumstance, from the open prairie to the vilest South American dungeon on earth. Should not be confused with 'liberty' which is handed out by the caprice and largesse of elected officials and governments, and can be rescinded at any moment with little or no notice... Leastwise, that's my take upon the matter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Agreed Gramps, except that long-term confinement can do bad things to a person's psyche so that freedom ceases to exist. I've read of people going raving mad and eventually dying from too many years confinement in dark dungeons. I have seen too many serious mental health cases among women trapped in oppressive religion. In theory it works. For short terms it works. The human body and psyche have upper limits of endurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oddmanout Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 I heard an old adage that went something like this: You have the freedom to swing your arms, up to the point where it touches me", or "You have the freedom to play your stereo as loud as you want up to the point where I can hear it", etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oddmanout Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Agreed Gramps, except that long-term confinement can do bad things to a person's psyche so that freedom ceases to exist. I've read of people going raving mad and eventually dying from too many years confinement in dark dungeons. I have seen too many serious mental health cases among women trapped in oppressive religion. In theory it works. For short terms it works. The human body and psyche have upper limits of endurance. Even in a 'closed community', freedom can exist, choices can be made, friendships and attachments can be created, hope can flower and grow. But religion is so much more oppressive than any jail. In prison, I authored a monthly political editorial called "Views Through the Razorwire"; I could see an end, a ray of sunlight, the freedom to at least THINK; religion denies even that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 'Can' is a mighty big word... I'd disagree with the statement of fact that "The human [...] psyche [has] upper limits of endurance" since the only fact one can state with certainty is that it varies from person to person. Some people their freedom ends before the echoes of the door slamming shut have died, others can't live as long as their freedom lasts... You can break a body only so far as it dies... that doesn't mean you've taken their freedom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Freedom is the right to act for yourself. We all have the right to choose, even badly. Freedom we have today is a political concept that regulates what we have the freedom to do. I wish we had the freedom to do what we want to do between consenting people. We do not need a nation of nannys regulating our behaviours with antiquated laws and prohibitions based on religious beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 "Freedom we have today is a political concept that regulates what we have the freedom to do." That's Liberty, not Freedom... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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