Christianity Is Based On Astrology

[SWIM]

There were many pre-bible "gods" in the world at one time. They were centered around the "sun", as there was no science to tell the world "what" the sun is, so it, like "thunder" or "the stars" were all misunderstood, so they were considered "holy" or "gods".

 

This is the third part in a series of threads I started, inspired by the zeitgeist movie. I didn't *just* watch the movie and begin posting. I took the time to do some research on this. I am now going to talk about the astrology part, it holds the key to WHY the "sun god" myths are copies of one another.

 

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

 

There is the movie link fyi.

 

Now, the web is full of good xtians doing their thing with long-winded dribble debunking of these concepts, but none that I have seen logically *explain it away*.

 

 

Why does the story of Horus seem so similar to the jesus myth? And WHY do other *sun god* stories seem startlingly similar as well? Is it *just* a coincidence? You decide.

 

Sojorner, these are not pastes fyi (you asked if I wrote or pasted the articles in another thread). I pasted just the raw data, and added my commentaries. This one is pure no-paste.

 

Where to begin... OK let's start with the zodiac wheel:

 

The zodiac wheel, or "the Cross of Zodiac", shows the 12 constellations, 12 months of the year, 4 seasons, solstices and equinoxes. The calender was more important back then because there was no weather men, no way to predict nature, so it was thought to be the product of god's whims, and it was *very* important to them that GOD was worshiped "correctly", just like it seems, christians feel today that it is important for god to be worshiped correctly. (less you feel his wrath). The SUN was considered to be either GOD or a direct product of (son) god.

 

 

 

The "virgin Mary" is symbolic of the constellation virgo (the virgin). The ancient symbol for Virgo is the altered *M*. This is why Mary and other virgin mothers of "mythras",Horus's mother Isis-Mery, Adonis's mother Myra, and Budha's mother Maya begin with the letter M!

 

Virgo is also referred to as the House of Bread. Bethlehem literally translated means "House of Bread". Bethlehem is thus a reference to the constellation Virgo "A place in the Sky. Not On earth".

 

The 12 disciples are symbolic of the 12 signs on the zodiac. The bible is FULL of 12s:

 

12 tribes of israel

12 Brothers of Jospeh

12 Judges of Israel

12 Great Patriacrhs

 

12 Old Testament Prophets

12 Kings of Israel

12 Princess of Israel

Jesus in Temple at 12

 

Jesus ALSO was in born in the age (aeon) of "Pisces" (the fishes), and he references the coming age (aeon) all indicate the NEXT age, aquarius.

 

There is MUCH more, this should be enough to kick off the similarities. This also explains WHY anyone would want to copy a pagen myth and adopt it as a religion, it FIT the mindset at the time *very* well, and altering the story to match pagen beliefs was a GREAT way to convert "sun worshipers" to christ.

 

So now we know WHY the bible texts were written and/or altered back then.

 

They either totally fabricated the entire jesus story, or grossly altered it to satisfy the sun worshipers of the day. There is no WAY at all to "cherry pick" or, like Kratos says, "filter" the contents.

 

In conclusion to this OP, the bible CANNOT be considered either inspired by god, or authored by him, since it is clearly an adaptation of earlier works, and grounded SOLIDLY in astrology. If the book cannot be cherry picked or filtered due to too much crapola injected into it, it therefore must be discarded as a myth.

[SWIM]

For xtians who choose to challenge this concept, here is a thread you should read before responding:

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?show...c=21860&hl=

 

It contains a list of sun gods and the similarities to the jesus myth.

[sojourner]

Hi SWIM

 

Just so you know, I only asked about the pasting in case I want to reuse it anywhere, whom do I give credit or if someone asks where is that from, where would I say? that was all

 

As to this astrology, I have a great book by Bullinger as well on Witness of the Stars which ties the gospel story into the stars and he basically says, the stars have been telling the story since the beginning.

 

When I first started studying this it actually encouraged me rather than discouraged me to see that the same story was passed down thru the ages. At the time I wasnt considering whether or not Jesus story was also part of the myth telling. I rather felt they all led up to him.

 

Now, I am taking all this into consideration again. Either way I just want to say, I dont feel the need to 'discard myth' but rather to embrace what is so inspirational at the heart of myth. To me myth often is incredibly beautiful.

 

thanks

 

sojourner

[sojourner]

Oh wanted to add,

I am currently reading Campbells book A Hero with a Thousand Faces, I believe its called, its in the other room lol

 

wow, I cannot tell you how wonderful I find that book. You mentioned it somewhere and I just wanted to agree! I will read it again Im sure as soon as Im through. What great insight this man had into the inner workings of man.

 

sojourner

[SWIM]

When I first started studying this it actually encouraged me rather than discouraged me to see that the same story was passed down thru the ages. At the time I wasnt considering whether or not Jesus story was also part of the myth telling. I rather felt they all led up to him.

 

Now, I am taking all this into consideration again. Either way I just want to say, I dont feel the need to 'discard myth' but rather to embrace what is so inspirational at the heart of myth. To me myth often is incredibly beautiful.

 

thanks

 

sojourner

 

Well, it boils down to the origins being of "sun god" worship, it takes quite a bit of imagination to be "encouraged" by this, it pretty much show that xtianity is only one of a long series of sun-god cults, this one was lucky enough to survive.

 

The human imagination is a wonderful thing. It makes it possible to see "mary" in a taco, and also makes one capable of being encouraged by evidence that the religion they hold dear is only a "spin" on older religions.

 

It didn't lead up to christ, it invented christ...

 

But, anyway, thanks for responding.

 

FYI when I make a post that is mostly pastes I quote the source. If I change it with my own commentary, or re-word it to make it more layman clear, you can use it. I will post a link or outright say in the OP it's a copy. So, I don't mind if you want to copy any of my posts, that's why I post, to share knowledge and ideas.

 

[sojourner]

The human imagination is a wonderful thing. It makes it possible to see "mary" in a taco, and also makes one capable of being encouraged by evidence that the religion they hold dear is only a "spin" on older religions.

 

It didn't lead up to christ, it invented christ...

 

But, anyway, thanks for responding.

 

Hi SWIM,

 

its not the religion that I hold dear. Its the inspiration I receive from certain parts of the stories that are a part of the religion.

 

Its the same thing one might feel when they watch an inspirational movie. One feels inspired by anothers struggle and triumph.

 

Myth is all about struggle and triumph and not just on behalf of oneself but for others as well. That inspires.

 

whether or not christianity is a new spin on older myth and ends up in the myth pile wont change how it affects me in my inner being is all I was saying.

 

Honestly my belief in God is not hinged on literal events in the bible being real or not. I actually didnt know that till they began being challanged.

 

 

 

sojourner

[SWIM]

its not the religion that I hold dear. Its the inspiration I receive from certain parts of the stories that are a part of the religion.

 

Its the same thing one might feel when they watch an inspirational movie. One feels inspired by anothers struggle and triumph.

 

This is actually a very healthy way of looking at it. But it's not a xtian position, thus the title CINO. But is CINO really a bad thing? No, not from a personal perspective, it surely isn't but...

 

It puts an endorsement on xtianity that it does not deserve, in reference to people seeing you as supporting xtianity, when in fact you really don't...

[bellsybop]

I was just going to start a thread about this movie. The whole thing is an eye opener and I hope that everyone will bookmark this and watch it when you've got about 2 hours to put aside for it.

Thanks for posting the info... it's a must see.

[Kratos]

Soj,

 

I have also read Bolinger's work on the subject. Marilyn Hickey wrote a book in the 70's that caused a lot of ruckus on this subject, also. This came mostly from superstitious fundie's that thought even mentioning astrology in the same framework as the Bible was blasphemy. Of course, these were people who were reacting emotionally and had never read the book. Her premise was that this was a fulfillment of the scriptures that says that the Heavens declare the glory of God and that God has revealed Himself to everyone who is made so they are without excuse.

 

Again, as universalists, we believe that God's intention has always been the salvation of all, it would make sense that He would preach the gospel in the stars so even the most primitive and isolated of indigenous people would have been given enough to believe or reject the Savior by their free will. I love the truth that even the stars have told the greatest story ever told.

 

John

[R. S. Martin]

Hi SWIM,

 

its not the religion that I hold dear. Its the inspiration I receive from certain parts of the stories that are a part of the religion.

 

Its the same thing one might feel when they watch an inspirational movie. One feels inspired by anothers struggle and triumph.

 

Myth is all about struggle and triumph and not just on behalf of oneself but for others as well. That inspires.

 

whether or not christianity is a new spin on older myth and ends up in the myth pile wont change how it affects me in my inner being is all I was saying.

 

Honestly my belief in God is not hinged on literal events in the bible being real or not. I actually didnt know that till they began being challanged.

 

 

 

sojourner

 

Sojourner, I find this confusing. Are you in love with religion or with inspiration? In one place you say "It's not the religion I hold dear," but then you talk about "the stories that are part of the religion." Thus, it sounds like religion really is very important. In addition, you talk about your "belief in God" which is normally known as religion. And yet you say it's not religion that is important to you.

 

Also, you talk a lot about inspiration and you say it doesn't matter to you where this inspiration comes from--it can be from an inspirational movie, from watching (but not helping?) another struggle and truimph, or from any kind of myth, and truth doesn't play a major role, i.e. you say: Honestly my belief in God is not hinged on literal events in the bible being real or not. Elsewhere you mentioned beauty.

 

Thus, I understand that for you truth doesn't matter, and that you are saying that religion may or may not matter. God is important and so is your inner being. Other than that, nowhere in your posts do I see anything related to ethics or beliefs or value system. What am I missing?

[R. S. Martin]

I love the truth that even the stars have told the greatest story ever told.

 

Please provide the evidence that the stars ever proclaimed such "truth."

[The-Captain]

Soj,

 

I have also read Bolinger's work on the subject. Marilyn Hickey wrote a book in the 70's that caused a lot of ruckus on this subject, also. This came mostly from superstitious fundie's that thought even mentioning astrology in the same framework as the Bible was blasphemy. Of course, these were people who were reacting emotionally and had never read the book. Her premise was that this was a fulfillment of the scriptures that says that the Heavens declare the glory of God and that God has revealed Himself to everyone who is made so they are without excuse.

 

Again, as universalists, we believe that God's intention has always been the salvation of all, it would make sense that He would preach the gospel in the stars so even the most primitive and isolated of indigenous people would have been given enough to believe or reject the Savior by their free will. I love the truth that even the stars have told the greatest story ever told.

 

John

 

Kratos I think your definition of universalist deviates a great bit from the commonly accepted one.

[sojourner]

Hi Ruby,

 

I will try my best to answer you.

 

Sojourner, I find this confusing. Are you in love with religion or with inspiration? In one place you say "It's not the religion I hold dear," but then you talk about "the stories that are part of the religion." Thus, it sounds like religion really is very important. In addition, you talk about your "belief in God" which is normally known as religion. And yet you say it's not religion that is important to you.

 

Religion to me means the traditions and rituals that grew up into the machinary of Christianity. You must be a member of a church. You need a man to hear your prayers or at least confess them to each other. You owe God ten percent of your income. You must eat a cracker and drink a bit of grape juice. You must be dunked or at least sprinkled in water. You must speak in tongues. You must, you must you must. Those to me constitute 'religion'. But they really to me are symbolic and whether we do them literally means little to nothing to me. However, to me some of those things can symbolize other things and those can be inspirational.

 

Also, you talk a lot about inspiration and you say it doesn't matter to you where this inspiration comes from--it can be from an inspirational movie, from watching (but not helping?) another struggle and truimph, or from any kind of myth, and truth doesn't play a major role, i.e. you say: Honestly my belief in God is not hinged on literal events in the bible being real or not. Elsewhere you mentioned beauty.

 

Thats because its all symbols and I can find much in movies, other books that speak on the same level as the bible or the gita and many myths. I dont know why you assume I only watch and dont ever help others.

 

Thus, I understand that for you truth doesn't matter, and that you are saying that religion may or may not matter. God is important and so is your inner being. Other than that, nowhere in your posts do I see anything related to ethics or beliefs or value system. What am I missing?

 

What truth Ruby do you think doesnt matter to me that needs to matter? And No religion as defined above matters not one bit to me. My ethics, beliefs and value system is mine. If you want to know something about them ask specifics.

 

sojourner

[Neon Genesis]

Again, as universalists, we believe that God's intention has always been the salvation of all,

How do you know this is what God wants? I thought Christians weren't supposed to understand the mind of God yet suddenly they know what his intention is? If this is what God really wants, why didn't he leave the message clearer for us to understand?

 

it would make sense that He would preach the gospel in the stars so even the most primitive and isolated of indigenous people would have been given enough to believe or reject the Savior by their free will. I love the truth that even the stars have told the greatest story ever told.

 

John

Why do you assume that the stars are speaking about the bible? And why do you assume that because the bible repeats these stories that the stars have "told", that it suddenly proves that these stories ever took place? The Harry Potter books contain similarities to previous fantasy books that were written years before Harry Potter (like the Earthsea novels and The Worst Witch books). Because the Harry Potter books contains themes in its stories that it borrows from previous fantasy books, does this suddenly prove that the stories in Harry Potter and its predecessors are suddenly true? If this logic doesn't apply to Harry Potter, why does it apply to the bible? Why can't these mythological stories be just that, stories?

[R. S. Martin]

Religion to me means the traditions and rituals that grew up into the machinary of Christianity. You must be a member of a church. You need a man to hear your prayers or at least confess them to each other. You owe God ten percent of your income. You must eat a cracker and drink a bit of grape juice. You must be dunked or at least sprinkled in water. You must speak in tongues. You must, you must you must. Those to me constitute 'religion'. But they really to me are symbolic and whether we do them literally means little to nothing to me. However, to me some of those things can symbolize other things and those can be inspirational.

 

Also, you talk a lot about inspiration and you say it doesn't matter to you where this inspiration comes from--it can be from an inspirational movie, from watching (but not helping?) another struggle and truimph, or from any kind of myth, and truth doesn't play a major role, i.e. you say: Honestly my belief in God is not hinged on literal events in the bible being real or not. Elsewhere you mentioned beauty.

 

Thats because its all symbols and I can find much in movies, other books that speak on the same level as the bible or the gita and many myths. I dont know why you assume I only watch and dont ever help others.

 

Thus, I understand that for you truth doesn't matter, and that you are saying that religion may or may not matter. God is important and so is your inner being. Other than that, nowhere in your posts do I see anything related to ethics or beliefs or value system. What am I missing?

 

What truth Ruby do you think doesnt matter to me that needs to matter? And No religion as defined above matters not one bit to me. My ethics, beliefs and value system is mine. If you want to know something about them ask specifics.

 

sojourner

 

What you say about religion clarifies a lot for me. You are the second person to tell me that. The other was on msn. It seems you separate ethics, beliefs and value system from religion. For me, the way I was raised, those ARE religion. Everything else we did was based on them. For example, we our dress code and everything else was guided by biblical passages. The NT says we should be prepared to explain what we believe and why. We were taught the biblical basis for all of it. There was no division between the things we did (rituals, etc.) and ethics, values, and beliefs. I don't think there is in the Catholic tradition, either, for people who understand it. From the bit I've read, I understand there is mystical or spiritual meaning attached to all of it. This being the case, why would you not rather seek to understand it than reject it?

 

You say to ask if I want to know something specific. That is something specific I would be interested to know about. It would tell me something about your values and beliefs about a specific item, while at the same time educating me about what it's like growing up RC.

 

About truth, I will repeat my quote and bold that part:

 

Ruby, Post 10, said:

 

Also, you talk a lot about inspiration and you say it doesn't matter to you where this inspiration comes from--it can be from an inspirational movie, from watching (but not helping?) another struggle and truimph, or from any kind of myth, and truth doesn't play a major role, i.e. you say: Honestly my belief in God is not hinged on literal events in the bible being real or not. Elsewhere you mentioned beauty.

 

If events don't have to be literal and they don't have to be real, but you believe them anyway, obviously they don't have to be true for you. But you accept them as true. I find that extremely confusing. It is simply not truthful! Truth=that which is consistent no matter which way you look at it. Obviously, for you this is not very important. That is what I am saying. You will believe God whether or not the evidence for his existence holds up. That comes across to me as a god that is not real. Yet God seems to be one of two things that is real to you. I find this very seriously confusing.

 

In Post 6 you also say:

 

whether or not christianity is a new spin on older myth and ends up in the myth pile wont change how it affects me in my inner being is all I was saying.

 

So the other thing that is important or real to you is your inner being.

 

According to that post, it seems there are two things that are important to you: God and your inner being. Lots of liberal Christians equate "God" and "inner being" to mean the same thing--self.

 

The logical conclusion would be that you know you exist and you have some pleasant experiences with yourself. Is that what you're saying? There's absolutely nothing wrong with that just so long as we know that we're talking about ourselves and not some magic being in the sky when we really mean ourselves. Otherwise, we're just deceiving ourselves. I guess that's my point. Maybe you don't want to go there at this point.

[Ouroboros]

The "virgin Mary" is symbolic of the constellation virgo (the virgin). The ancient symbol for Virgo is the altered *M*. This is why Mary and other virgin mothers of "mythras",Horus's mother Isis-Mery, Adonis's mother Myra, and Budha's mother Maya begin with the letter M!

Lots of good stuff you have there... buuuut... Wasn't Horus, Isis-Mery and Buddha, Maya etc, used in languages long before the Roman empire and hence didn't use the Roman/Latin letters??? It sounds like an impossible stretch. I don't know how the character for "M" looks in the old pictographic egyptian, is there any reference to this?

[Kratos]

Soj,

 

I have also read Bolinger's work on the subject. Marilyn Hickey wrote a book in the 70's that caused a lot of ruckus on this subject, also. This came mostly from superstitious fundie's that thought even mentioning astrology in the same framework as the Bible was blasphemy. Of course, these were people who were reacting emotionally and had never read the book. Her premise was that this was a fulfillment of the scriptures that says that the Heavens declare the glory of God and that God has revealed Himself to everyone who is made so they are without excuse.

 

Again, as universalists, we believe that God's intention has always been the salvation of all, it would make sense that He would preach the gospel in the stars so even the most primitive and isolated of indigenous people would have been given enough to believe or reject the Savior by their free will. I love the truth that even the stars have told the greatest story ever told.

 

John

 

Kratos I think your definition of universalist deviates a great bit from the commonly accepted one.

 

Doc,

 

A Christian Universalist is someone who still believes that all salvation is in Jesus Christ, but believes He is the Savior of the whole world so we do not hold to the existense of an eternal hell. We see the scriptures that speak of eternal torment in hell as mistranslations brought on by a mixture of Greek and Roman mythology with early Christianity.

 

What definition have you heard?

 

John

[Kratos]

I love the truth that even the stars have told the greatest story ever told.

 

Please provide the evidence that the stars ever proclaimed such "truth."

 

Ruby,

 

I was referring to the OP and to the books by Bolinger and Hickey on the subject of the origin of the zodiac and astrology. I personally never have been able to see any pictures in the stars. I do see the vastness and beauty of the creation which as a believer causes me to rejoice, but other than the big and little dippers or the southern cross, I never can make out the puctures in the constalations.

 

John

[Grandpa Harley]

Soj,

 

I have also read Bolinger's work on the subject. Marilyn Hickey wrote a book in the 70's that caused a lot of ruckus on this subject, also. This came mostly from superstitious fundie's that thought even mentioning astrology in the same framework as the Bible was blasphemy. Of course, these were people who were reacting emotionally and had never read the book. Her premise was that this was a fulfillment of the scriptures that says that the Heavens declare the glory of God and that God has revealed Himself to everyone who is made so they are without excuse.

 

Again, as universalists, we believe that God's intention has always been the salvation of all, it would make sense that He would preach the gospel in the stars so even the most primitive and isolated of indigenous people would have been given enough to believe or reject the Savior by their free will. I love the truth that even the stars have told the greatest story ever told.

 

John

 

Kratos I think your definition of universalist deviates a great bit from the commonly accepted one.

 

Doc,

 

A Christian Universalist is someone who still believes that all salvation is in Jesus Christ, but believes He is the Savior of the whole world so we do not hold to the existense of an eternal hell. We see the scriptures that speak of eternal torment in hell as mistranslations brought on by a mixture of Greek and Roman mythology with early Christianity.

 

What definition have you heard?

 

John

 

Generally, Paul is taken with a pinch of salt by most 'Universalist' Christians... who are usually a lot less (get ready.... it's nearly here...) a lot less misogynist and homophobe than your view... you do try to keep that covered up, but really, the key to lie you spin is just that... you take Paul, Deuteronical and Levitican style laws as 'God inspired'... when most universalists regard it as Paul's personal distastes and prejudices, bolstered by his Jewish background (in a Classical judean sense, since there is no evidence that Paul is a Palestinian, and every eveidence he's a Helenic/Latiate Jew (which makes him as Jewish as me) His Tarsean lineage doesn't mean much other than that's where he lived (otherwise it would be JEsus of Bethlehem, not Nazareth...)

 

You're more Chrisitan than Universalist, and a heretic one at that... you have the nerve to relegate women to a lower rank and homosexuals to 'sinner' but don't quite have the stone for the whole 'damnation' thing... and getting a straight answer that you stick to is like wrestling a moray eel in warm jello....

[Deva]

Again, as universalists, we believe that God's intention has always been the salvation of all, it would make sense that He would preach the gospel in the stars so even the most primitive and isolated of indigenous people would have been given enough to believe or reject the Savior by their free will. I love the truth that even the stars have told the greatest story ever told.

 

I have heard this idea of God being revealed in the stars but not in connection with Universalism. In the Bible (Paul, I believe) says the unbelievers are without excuse because God has revealed himself in the natural world.

 

Setting aside the question of "free will", I have never understood how viewing the stars could be "enough to believe or reject the Savior." There is no way that a person outside Christianity viewing the stars would conclude the existance of Jesus Christ as savior. Kratos, you admit you can't even see the patterns. So how can you maintain this idea of the gospel preached in the stars? As far as I know the Hindus, who had astrology for 5,000 years, and developed a complex system of astrology, never came to that conclusion. On the contrary, in Hindu astrology the planets represent individual gods to be placated and worshiped. They didn't see anything specifically pertaining to the christian savior at all.

 

I agree with Gramps, you don't sound like a universalist, but a heretical Christian.

[sojourner]

What you say about religion clarifies a lot for me. You are the second person to tell me that. The other was on msn. It seems you separate ethics, beliefs and value system from religion. For me, the way I was raised, those ARE religion. Everything else we did was based on them. For example, we our dress code and everything else was guided by biblical passages. The NT says we should be prepared to explain what we believe and why. We were taught the biblical basis for all of it. There was no division between the things we did (rituals, etc.) and ethics, values, and beliefs. I don't think there is in the Catholic tradition, either, for people who understand it. From the bit I've read, I understand there is mystical or spiritual meaning attached to all of it. This being the case, why would you not rather seek to understand it than reject it?

 

Hi Ruby, I wasnt raised RC or even christian, I was just giving examples of rituals and traditions that are based on the bible. I was raised by a mother that felt she couldnt go back to a church having been divorced. I think I went to a couple of church events, one a wedding, the other easter before I was 25. Thats my background growing up. So that would be another reason you probably find my thinking so foreign. Heck I even find my thinking foreign at times lol Here is the answer to your question. I dont seek to reject them. I simply dont place a lot of value on things to do with spiritual unless I see beyond the symbols and literal things to the inner understandings behind them. For instance, I look back on many of the rituals I used to do and see in and of themselves they are empty but what they represent is still a part of me. Being baptized means little to me that I was dunked in a souther baptist church at the age of 25, but the fact that I was on a new path having left behind my old life of drugs still means something to me. The symbol is a notation in a journal, the change in me is alive in me to this day.

 

 

 

 

 

If events don't have to be literal and they don't have to be real, but you believe them anyway, obviously they don't have to be true for you. But you accept them as true. I find that extremely confusing. It is simply not truthful! Truth=that which is consistent no matter which way you look at it. Obviously, for you this is not very important. That is what I am saying. You will believe God whether or not the evidence for his existence holds up. That comes across to me as a god that is not real. Yet God seems to be one of two things that is real to you. I find this very seriously confusing.

 

I dont understand and so not sure how to answer. God to me is real but my belief in him is not based on absolutes that I accept from a book but on subjective inner experience. So I cant say I KNOW God is real, but I believe He is real based on blah blah blah that has no meaning whatsoever to anyone else but me. I dont know if that answers your question or not. Im confused lol maybe that is why I confuse you. Right now Im really struggling with much in christianity as well and am very much in the air about things.

 

 

 

According to that post, it seems there are two things that are important to you: God and your inner being. Lots of liberal Christians equate "God" and "inner being" to mean the same thing--self.

 

The logical conclusion would be that you know you exist and you have some pleasant experiences with yourself. Is that what you're saying? There's absolutely nothing wrong with that just so long as we know that we're talking about ourselves and not some magic being in the sky when we really mean ourselves. Otherwise, we're just deceiving ourselves. I guess that's my point. Maybe you don't want to go there at this point.

 

I do see what you are saying and let me tell ya that I do very much have a panentheistic view. God is in all things and all things are in God but all things are not God. As in a fish is in the water and the water is in the fish but the fish is not God.

Does that help?

 

thanks Ruby, I feel as if I have no real system to define myself with at this time. No title that says it all, no tradition religion that can define my beliefs at this time because they are expanding. That has to be hard for me to be understood and I apologize for that lack of clarity.

 

hopefully this cleared it a little

 

sojourner

[sojourner]

Soj,

I have also read Bolinger's work on the subject. Marilyn Hickey wrote a book in the 70's that caused a lot of ruckus on this subject, also. This came mostly from superstitious fundie's that thought even mentioning astrology in the same framework as the Bible was blasphemy. Of course, these were people who were reacting emotionally and had never read the book. Her premise was that this was a fulfillment of the scriptures that says that the Heavens declare the glory of God and that God has revealed Himself to everyone who is made so they are without excuse.

 

 

Again, as universalists, we believe that God's intention has always been the salvation of all, it would make sense that He would preach the gospel in the stars so even the most primitive and isolated of indigenous people would have been given enough to believe or reject the Savior by their free will. I love the truth that even the stars have told the greatest story ever told.

 

John

 

John in case you havent noticed as you dont read all my posts, I dont limit universalism to christianity and yes I can see universalsim in the story of the stars that has been passed down. I can find the same inspirational and very spiritual teaching of universalism in buddhism and other myths. So dont lump me into your WE in your posts as I dont see anyone getting rejected as all are on equal level with God in my beliefs.

 

You are no more 'saved' than anyone on this forum in my eyes. Right now. And I dont really want to get into some discussion on these things here. Unlike you I can go without preaching my beliefs on this forum.

 

Im still pissed off at how my post to you on the other forum over your views on homosexuals was removed so if you detect a tone there it is, I dont even want to be lumped in with you as if your views are mine because in many many places they are not.

 

sojourner

[SWIM]

The "virgin Mary" is symbolic of the constellation virgo (the virgin). The ancient symbol for Virgo is the altered *M*. This is why Mary and other virgin mothers of "mythras",Horus's mother Isis-Mery, Adonis's mother Myra, and Budha's mother Maya begin with the letter M!

Lots of good stuff you have there... buuuut... Wasn't Horus, Isis-Mery and Buddha, Maya etc, used in languages long before the Roman empire and hence didn't use the Roman/Latin letters??? It sounds like an impossible stretch. I don't know how the character for "M" looks in the old pictographic egyptian, is there any reference to this?

 

The point is that people used astrological symbols in in their stories religion. It is an explaination as to WHY the mythras stories all hold the same basic features.

 

And kratos its NOT the the bible is "written in the stars" any entry level astronomer could tell you that.

 

Alll this was is an explaination as to WHY the saviour stories are similar, its not "Lets get kratos to believe in astrology"...

 

DOH

[Grandpa Harley]

Im still pissed off at how my post to you on the other forum over your views on homosexuals was removed so if you detect a tone there it is, I dont even want to be lumped in with you as if your views are mine because in many many places they are not

 

Could you expand on this?

[sojourner]

Hey Grandpa

 

I shouldnt have brought my rant over here. I just got really ticked off and I feel Im parting ways with much that is so tribal to me in christian universalism not to mention the very antiquated views on sexuality and women.

 

sojourner