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Goodbye Jesus

I Wish Someone Could Stay On The Point


ogilvy

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for a few months now i've been bothered by the cruelty of God, which i couldnt help noticing is brought out in the bible. hell, for one thing, although i'm not sure whether the bible really talks about a hell of eternal torment or not. anyway most of the churches seem to think so. and yet whenever i talk to someone who's trying to answer my question as to God's cruelty, nobody (Christians) will stay on the point. and none of them will admit that God does cruel things. they wont even agree that hell is cruel. to say that we cant understand God's mind, is not adressing the point, IMO. they will accept that we can know God's mind when we're talking about his kindness, expressed in the bible, thats no problem to them. but if i mention God's cruelty, then the answer is that our finite minds cant comprehend God. but our finite minds CAN comprehend that a hell of oeternal torment would be the ultimate cruelty. am i going mad or something? why dont they know what i'm talking about? itts not difficult.

 

and theres another option to trusting God that he has a good reason. the other option is to conclude that it doesnt make sense for God to be cruel as well as good, i.e. cruel is not good, so therefore the bible might not be a true book, inspired by God. thats another option isnt it? i think its perfectly reasonable to consider that option, but no christian will accept it. maybe they're afraid of where that line of reasoning will lead them, which is a fair enough worry.

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...m i going mad or something? why dont they know what i'm talking about? itts not difficult.

 

They do know, and it's not difficult. It's just forbidden. They cannot but evade your points, for the only other way for them would be that FUCK YEAH, jehoover is a monster.

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The cruelty and pointlessness of eternal damnation is the elephant in the room that Christians ignore or hang curtains on. The rationalization I like best is that those who reject Christ's salvation choose to go to Hell. Yeah, right; I'll take that eternal torment in exchange for a limited set of choices for the next couple dozen years. They can't accept that we really don't believe that crap. They have to portray us as stupid, stubborn, whatever.

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They don't like your questions, Pippa, and will do anything they can to get you back to the salvation story and "Jesus loves you" response.

 

Madame M...pretty insightful there...interesting concept.

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I think they do know, they just don't want to admit it to themselves. Either that or the ones you talked to are cherry pickers who only want to believe the fluffy things in Christianity. A lot of Christians are cherry pickers these days.

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The rationalization I like best is that those who reject Christ's salvation choose to go to Hell.

 

A further problem with this concept is they can only make this choice if they've had the gospel presented to them, so basically anybody who dies without having the gospel presented to them is going to hell, unless you invent something like limbo/purgatory.

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No, no, no...this is where Xians invented the concept that those who haven't heard and/or understood the gospel get into heaven by default. It's how they make certain little children who die will get to heaven (even though the kids were born in sin...?).

 

Of course, if this were true then it would be really fucking stupid to bother to preach the gospel at all. Let nobody hear it and then they get into heaven since they never heard nor understood the gospel.

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No, no, no...this is where Xians invented the concept that those who haven't heard and/or understood the gospel get into heaven by default. It's how they make certain little children who die will get to heaven (even though the kids were born in sin...?).

 

Of course, if this were true then it would be really fucking stupid to bother to preach the gospel at all. Let nobody hear it and then they get into heaven since they never heard nor understood the gospel.

 

Most Christians I know think that mentally challenged adults or children who have not reached the "age of accountability" will go to heaven, but as for those who haven't heard the gospel I think they feel it works a little differently. Personally, when I was still an orthodox Christian I believed that God could reach anyone, anywhere and then they could choose or reject him. If God exists it would make sense that he would be able to do that, and not need someone to go whap someone over the head with an old book. I know now that I thought that way partially as a rationalization of me not "witnessing" to others. I always felt ones actions spoke much louder than their words.

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Most Christians I know think that mentally challenged adults or children who have not reached the "age of accountability" will go to heaven,

That wasn't the view of the RCC as recently as 1980, and it's not the view of many protestant cults even today...

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Wasn't it Paul who said somewhere that no one had an excuse because God was revealed in the natural world (something like that)?

 

Makes you wonder though, just how much knowledge of Christ is really necessary for salvation.

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Most Christians I know think that mentally challenged adults or children who have not reached the "age of accountability" will go to heaven,

That wasn't the view of the RCC as recently as 1980, and it's not the view of many protestant cults even today...

 

Then they are even sicker than I thought. Hell, my reading of scripture would make me think they would be more in danger of hellfire for judging other's eternal salvation, than the innocents they judge.

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Until Albino Luciani made a stand when he was Prelate of Venice to gain equal rights for the disabled in the Church of Rome...

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[True. I'm not sure how one could glean the christ story from nature. Maybe I lack imagination.

 

I doubt its lack of imagination, Madame M. This is something in the Bible I have never understood:

 

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickednesss, since what may be known about God is plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qulaities---his eternal power and divine nature-- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. Romans 1:18 - and the whole rest of the chapter as well (which I am too lazy to type).

 

Yuck, MM you made me look it up, but I promise I won't hold it against you.

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The cruelty and pointlessness of eternal damnation is the elephant in the room that Christians ignore or hang curtains on. The rationalization I like best is that those who reject Christ's salvation choose to go to Hell.

yes that one drives me crazy because its so dishonest. they try to say God doesnt SEND anyone to hell. they put it like God is passive, the people do it to themselves. as if anyone would knowingly, willingly choose eternal torture, especially if they've never heard of it. and Jesus specifically says that God is the one with the power to THROW people into hell.

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Stockholm Syndrome[/url]:

What causes Stockholm Syndrome? Captives begin to identify with their captors initially as a defensive mechanism, out of fear of violence. Small acts of kindness by the captor are magnified, since finding perspective in a hostage situation is by definition impossible. Rescue attempts are also seen as a threat, since it's likely the captive would be injured during such attempts.

 

So to sum up, christians are in fact captive to a god they percieve as angry and wrathful. Like those who have been kidnapped, or put in concentration camps or in other severely abusive situations- they can't understand why god is wrathful like this or why hell exists. They just know they don't want to end up in hell or meet up with this wrath, so they don't really care about the why's, they are just trying their hardest to identify with their captor so they can be "saved" from a horrible fate. So you won't ever get a good answer from one of these Stockholm Syndrome survivors. To them, your question looks like a rescue attempt and they don't want to get hurt in the process.

yes i think you're right, Madame M, thanks for that

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[quote name='MonolithTMA' Most Christians I know think that mentally challenged adults or children who have not reached the "age of accountability" will go to heaven, but as for those who haven't heard the gospel I think they feel it works a little differently. .

i hope that is the case, if hell is a real place, because i might avoid it on the grounds of insanity, which trying to please God all my life has almost driven me to.

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It will tend to do that...been there myself...

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Madame.. you actually made some clarity for me. If the glove fits, wear it.. and that is how I see them behaving.

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The cruelty and pointlessness of eternal damnation is the elephant in the room that Christians ignore or hang curtains on. The rationalization I like best is that those who reject Christ's salvation choose to go to Hell.

yes that one drives me crazy because its so dishonest. they try to say God doesnt SEND anyone to hell. they put it like God is passive, the people do it to themselves. as if anyone would knowingly, willingly choose eternal torture, especially if they've never heard of it. and Jesus specifically says that God is the one with the power to THROW people into hell.

 

It's like someone claiming 'The bitch makes me beat her' in court... :repuke:

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