Am I the only one

[Lilith]

I'm feeling very alone this morning. My husband's return to church last night was much harder than I imagined it would be. I had a minor emotional breakdown and was sobbing in front of him and everything. I was blithering on about how he doesn't understand me, doesn't want to understand me, is going to be turned against me by the members of the church......God, I'm a mess.

[Vigile]

I'm feeling very alone this morning.  My husband's return to church last night was much harder than I imagined it would be.  I had a minor emotional breakdown and was sobbing in front of him and everything.  I was blithering on about how he doesn't understand me, doesn't want to understand me, is going to be turned against me by the members of the church......God, I'm a mess.

 

 

I'm really sorry you have to go through this Appellation. It really sucks how religion can divide even those things and relationships that are most important to us. I wish I could help, I really do.

[Reach]

Appellation,

 

You are not the only one. Several of our members are really struggling in marriages to Christians, liberal or fundy.

 

You are not the only one. One of my friends finally managed to move out yesterday. His miserable marriage to a pentecostal fundy wife was killing him, inch by inch, cell by cell and after a couple years of effort he just couldn't fix the thing.

 

You are not the only one. My marriage, founded on nothing but Christianity, crumbled immediately the minute I departed from that sandy shore.

 

You are not the only one. While some of us struggle to rebuild our lives, others here have found ways of living with the spouses they still love and while it's not easy, it's possible.

 

Intimacy is impossible without being understood. Your heartbreak is reasonable, no matter how you expressed yourself. Your feelings are valid and the relationship is worth fighting for.

 

You are not the only one and you are not alone. I know you are hurting and I'm so sorry you are having to go through this struggle. I'm sorry I have nothing to say to encourage you, but I can sit with you and listen.

 

May your husband's eyes be opened up to his greater love for you.

 

-Reach

[Guest flood999]

Solitude of Self

by Elizabeth Cady Stanton

American Women's Rights Pioneer

 

Address To The U.S. Congressional Committee Of The Judiciary Hearing - January 18, 1892

 

Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee: We have been speaking before Committees of the Judiciary for the last twenty years, and we have gone over all the arguments in favor of a sixteenth amendment which are familiar to all you gentlemen; therefore, it will not be necessary that I should repeat them again.

 

The point I wish plainly to bring before you on this occasion is the individuality of each human soul; our Protestant idea, the right of individual conscience and judgment-our republican idea, individual citizenship. In discussing the rights of woman, we are to consider, first, what belongs to her as an individual, in a world of her own, the arbiter of her own destiny, an imaginary Robinson Crusoe with her woman Friday on a solitary island. Her rights under such circumstances are to use all her faculties for her own safety and happiness.

 

Secondly, if we consider her as a citizen, as a member of a great nation, she must have the same rights as all other members, according to the fundamental principles of our Government.

 

Thirdly, viewed as a woman, an equal factor in civilization, her rights and duties are still the same-individual happiness and development.

 

Fourthly, it is only the incidental relations of life, such as mother, wife, sister, daughter, that may involve some special duties and training. In the usual discussion in regard to woman's sphere, such men as Herbert Spencer, Frederic Harrison, and Grant Allen uniformity subordinate her rights and duties as an individual, as a citizen, as a woman, to the necessities of these incidental relations, some of which a large class of women may never assume. In discussing the sphere of man we do not decide his rights as an individual, as a citizen, as a man by his duties as a father, a husband, a brother, or a son, relations some of which he may never still. Moreover he would be better fitted for these very relations and whatever special work he might choose to do to earn his bread by the complete development of all his faculties as an individual.

 

Just so with woman. The education that will fit her to discharge the duties in the largest sphere of human usefulness will best fit her for whatever special work she may be compelled to do.

 

The isolation of every human soul and the necessity of self-dependence must give each individual the right to choose his own surroundings.

 

The strongest reason for giving women all the opportunities for higher education, for the full development of her faculties, forces of mind and body; for giving her the most enlarged freedom of thought and action; a complete emancipation from all forms of bondage, of custom, dependence, superstition; from all the crippling influences of fear, is the solitude and personal responsibility of her own individual life. The strongest reason why we ask for woman a voice in the government under which she lives; in the religion she is asked to believe; equality in social life, where she is the chief factor; a place in the trades and professions, where she may earn her bread, is because of her birthright to self-sovereignty; because, as an individual, she must rely on herself. No matter how much women prefer to lean, to be protected and supported, nor how much men desire to have them do so, they must make the voyage of life alone, and for safety in an emergency they must know something of the laws of navigation. To guide our own craft, we must be captain, pilot, engineer; with chart and compass to stand at the wheel; to watch the wind and waves and know when to take in the sail, and to read the signs in the firmament over all. In matters not whether the solitary voyager is man or woman. Nature having endowed them equally, leaves them to their own skill and judgment in the hour of danger, and, if not equal to the occasion, alike they perish.

 

To appreciate the importance of fitting every human soul for independent action, think for a moment of the immeasurable solitude of self. We come into the world alone, unlike all who have gone before us; we leave it alone under circumstances peculiar to ourselves. No mortal ever has been, no mortal ever will be like the soul just launched on the sea of life. There can never again be just such a combination of prenatal influences; never again just such environments as make up the infancy, youth, and manhood of this one. Nature never repeats herself, and the possibilities of one human soul will never be found in another. No one has ever found two blades of ribbon grass alike, and no one will ever find two human beings alike. Seeing, then, what must be the infinite diversity in human character, we can in a measure appreciate the loss to a nation when any large class of the people is uneducated and unrepresented in the government. We ask for the complete development of every individual, first, for his own benefit and happiness. In fitting out an army we give each soldier his own knapsack, arms, powder, his blanket, cup, knife, fork and spoon. We provide alike for all their individual necessities, then each man bears his own burden.

 

Again we ask complete individual development for the general good; for the consensus of the competent on the whole round of human interests; on all questions of national life, and here each man must bear his share of the general burden. It is sad to see how soon friendless children are left to bear their own burdens before they can analyze their feelings; before they can even tell their joys and sorrows, they are thrown on their own resources. The great lesson that nature seems to teach us at all ages is self-dependence, self-protection, self-support. What a touching instance of a child's solitude; of that hunger of the heart for love and recognition, in the case of the little girl who helped to dress a Christmas tree for the children of the family in which she served. On finding there was no present for herself she slipped away in the darkness and spent the night in an open field sitting on a stone, and when found in the morning was weeping as if her heart would break. No mortal will ever know the thoughts that passed through the mind of that friendless child in the long hours of that cold nigh, with only the silent stars to keep her company. The mention of her case in the daily papers moved many generous hearts to send her presents, but in the hours of her keenest suffering she was thrown wholly on herself for consolation.

 

In youth our most bitter disappointments, our brightest hopes and ambitions are known only to ourselves; even our friendship and love we never fully share with another; there is something of every passion in every situation we conceal. Even so in our triumphs and our defeats. The successful candidate for the Presidency and his opponent each have a solitude peculiarly his own, and good form forbids either to speak to his pleasure or regret. The solitude of the king on his throne and the prisoner in his cell differs in character and degree, but it is solitude nevertheless.

 

We ask no sympathy from others in the anxiety and agony of a broken friendship or shattered love. When death sunders our nearest ties, alone we sit in the shadow of our affliction. Alike mid the greatest triumphs and darkest tragedies of life we walk alone. On the divine heights of human attainments, eulogized and worshipped as a hero or saint, we stand alone. In ignorance, poverty, and vice, as a pauper or criminal, alone we starve or steal; alone we suffer the sneers and rebuffs of our fellows; alone we are hunted and hounded through dark courts and alleys, in by-ways and highways; alone we stand in the judgment seat; alone in the prison cell we lament our crimes and misfortunes; alone we expiate them on the gallows. In hours like these we realize the awful solitude of individual life, its pains, its penalties, its responsibilities: hours in which the youngest and most helpless are thrown on their own resources for guidance and consolation. Seeing then that life must ever be a march and a battle, that each soldier must be equipped for his own protection, it is the height of cruelty to rob the individual of a single natural right.

 

To throw obstacles in the way of a complete education is like putting out the eyes; to deny the rights of property, like cutting off the hands. To deny political equality is to rob the ostracised of all self-respect; of credit in the market place; of recompense in the world of work; of a voice in those who make and administer the law; a choice in the jury before whom they are tried, and in the judge who decides their punishment. Shakespeare's play of Titus and Andronicus contains a terrible satire on woman's position in the nineteenth century-"Rude men" (the play tells us) "seized the king's daughter, cut out her tongue, cut off her hands, and then bade her go ca for water and wash her hands." What a picture of woman's position. Robbed of her natural rights, handicapped by law and custom at every turn, yet compelled to fight her own battles, and in the emergencies of life to fall back on herself for protection.

 

The girl of sixteen, thrown on the world to support herself, to make her own place in society, to resist the temptations that surround her and maintain a spotless integrity, must do all this by native force or superior education. She does not acquire this power by being trained to trust others and distrust herself. If she wearies of the struggle, finding it hard work to swim upstream, and allows herself to drift with the current, she will find plenty of company, but not one to share her misery in the hour of her deepest humiliation. If she tries to retrieve her position, to conceal the past, her life is hedged about with fears lest willing hands should tear the veil from what she fain would hide. Young and friendless, she knows the bitter solitude of self.

 

How the little courtesies of life on the surface of society, deemed so important from man towards woman, fade into utter insignificance in view of the deeper tragedies in which she must play her part alone, where no human aid is possible.

 

The young wife and mother, at the head of some establishment with a kind husband to shield her from the adverse winds of life, with wealth, fortune and position, has a certain harbor of safety, secure against the ordinary ills of life. But to manage a household, have a desirable influence in society, keep her friends and the affections of her husband, train her children and servants well, she must have rare common sense, wisdom, diplomacy, and a knowledge of human nature. To do all this she needs the cardinal virtues and the strong points of character that the most successful statesman possesses.

 

An uneducated woman, trained to dependence, with no resources in herself must make a failure of any position in life. But society says women do not need a knowledge of the world; the liberal training that experience in public life must give, all the advantages of collegiate education; but when for the lack of all this, the woman's happiness is wrecked, alone she bears her humiliation; and the solitude of the weak and the ignorant is indeed pitiable. In the wild chase for the prizes of life they are ground to powder.

 

In age, when the pleasures of youth are passed, children grown up, married and gone, the hurry and bustle of life in a measure over, when the hands are weary of active service, when the old armchair and the fireside are the chosen resorts, then men and women alike must fall back on their own resources. If they cannot find companionship in books, if they have no interest in the vital questions of the hour, no interest in watching the consummation of reforms, with which they might have been identified, they soon pass into their dotage. The more fully the faculties of the mind are developed and kept in use, the longer the period of vigor and active interest in all around us continues. If from a lifelong participation in public affairs a woman feels responsible for the laws regulating our system of education, the discipline of our jails and prisons, the sanitary condition of our private homes, public buildings, and thoroughfares, an interest in commerce, finance, our foreign relations, in any or all these questions, her solitude will at least be respectable, and she will not be driven to gossip or scandal for entertainment.

 

The chief reason for opening to every soul the doors to the whole round of human duties and pleasures is the individual development thus attained, the resources thus provided under all circumstances to mitigate the solitude that at times must come to everyone. I once asked Prince Krapotkin, a Russian nihilist, how he endured his long years in prison, deprived of books, pen, ink, and paper. "Ah," he said, "I thought out many questions in which I had a deep interest. In the pursuit of an idea I took no note of time. When tired of solving knotty problems I recited all the beautiful passages in prose or verse I had ever learned. I became acquainted with myself and my own resources. I had a world of my own, a vast empire, that no Russian jailer or Czar could invade." Such is the value of liberal thought and broad culture when shut off from all human companionship, bringing comfort and sunshine within even the four walls of a prison cell.

 

As women ofttimes share a similar fate, should they not have all the consolation that the most liberal education can give? Their suffering in the prisons of St. Petersburg; in the long, weary marches to Siberia, and in the mines, working side by side with men, surely call for all the self-support that the most exalted sentiments of heroism can give. When suddenly roused at midnight, with the startling cry of "fire! fire!" to find the house over their heads in flames, do women wait for men to point the way to safety? And are the men, equally bewildered and half suffocated with smoke, in a position to do more than try to save themselves?

 

At such times the most timid women have shown a courage and heroism in saving their husbands and children that has surprised everybody. Inasmuch, then, as woman shares equally the joys and sorrows of time and eternity, is it not the height of presumption in man to propose to represent her at the ballot box and the throne of grace, to do her voting in the state, her praying in the church, and to assume the position of high priest at the family altar?

 

Nothing strengthens the judgment and quickens the conscience like individual responsibility. Nothing adds such dignity to character as the recognition of one's self-sovereignty; the right to an equal place, everywhere conceded; a place earned by personal merit, not an artificial attainment, by inheritance, wealth, family, and position. Seeing, then, that the responsibilities of life rest equally on man and woman, that their destiny is the same, they need the same preparation for time and eternity. The talk of sheltering woman from the fierce storms of life is the sheerest mockery, for they beat on her from every point of the compass, just as they do on man, and with more fatal results, for he has been trained to protect himself, to resist, to conquer. Such are the facts in human experience, the responsibilities of individual sovereignty. Rich and poor, intelligent and ignorant, wise and foolish, virtuous and vicious, man and woman, it is ever the same, each soul must depend wholly on itself.

 

Whatever the theories may be of woman's dependence on man, in the supreme moments of her life he can not bear her burdens. Alone she goes to the gates of death to give life to every man that is born into the world. No one can share her fears, no one can mitigate her pangs; and if her sorrow is greater than she can bear, alone she passes beyond the gates into the vast unknown.

 

From the mountain tops of Judea, long ago, a heavenly voice bade His disciples "Bear ye one another's burdens," but humanity has not yet risen to that point of self-sacrifice, and if ever so willing, how few the burdens are that one soul can bear for another. In the highways of Palestine; in prayer and fasting on the solitary mountain top; in the Garden of Gethsemane; before the judgment seat of Pilate; betrayed by one of His trusted disciples at His last supper; in His agonies on the cross, even Jesus of Nazareth, in these last sad days on earth, felt the awful solitude of self. Deserted by man, in agony he cries, "My God! My God! why hast Thou forsaken me?" And so it ever must be in the conflicting scenes of life, in the long, weary march, each one walks alone. We may have many friends, love, kindness, sympathy, and charity to smoothe our pathway in everyday life, but in the tragedies and triumphs of human experience each mortal stands alone.

 

But when all artificial trammels are removed, and women are recognized as individuals, responsible for their own environments, thoroughly educated for all positions in life they may be called to fill; with all the resources in themselves that liberal thought and broad culture can give; guided by their own conscience and judgment; trained to self-protection by a healthy development of the muscular system and skill in the use of weapons of defense, and stimulated to self-support by a knowledge of the business world and the pleasure that pecuniary independence must ever give; when women are trained in this way they will, in a measure, be fitted for those hours of solitude that come alike to all, whether prepared or otherwise. As in our extremity we must depend on ourselves, the dictates of wisdom point to complete individual development.

 

In talking of education how shallow the argument, that each class must be educated for the special work it proposes to do, and all those faculties not needed in this special walk must lie dormant and utterly wither for want of use, when, perhaps, these will be very faculties needed in life's greatest emergencies. Some say, Where is the use of drilling girls in the languages, the sciences, in law, medicine, theology? As wives, mothers housekeepers, cooks, they need a different curriculum from boys who are to fill all positions. The chief cooks in our great hotels and ocean steamers are men. In our large cities men run the bakeries; they make our bread, cake and pies. They manage the laundries; they are now considered our best milliners and dressmakers. Because some men fill these departments of usefulness, shall we regulate the curriculum in Harvard and Yale to their present necessities? If not, why this talk in our best colleges of a curriculum for girls who are crowding into the trades and professions; teachers in all our public schools, rapidly filling many lucrative and honorable positions in life? They are showing, too, their calmness and courage in the most trying hours of human experience.

 

You have probably all read in the daily papers of the terrible storm in the Bay of Biscay when a tidal wave made such havoc on the shore, wrecking vessels, unroofing houses, and carrying destruction everywhere. Among other buildings the woman's prison was demolished. Those who escaped saw men struggling to reach the shore. They promptly by clasping hands made a chain of themselves and pushed out into the sea, again and again, at the risk of their lives, until they had brought six men to shore, carried them to a shelter, and did all in their power for their comfort and protection.

 

What special school training could have prepared these women for this sublime moment in their lives? In times like this humanity rises above all college curriculums and recognizes Nature as the greatest of all teachers in the hour of danger and death. Women are already the equals of men in the whole realm of thought, in art, science, literature, and government. With telescopic vision they explore the starry firmament and bring back the history of the planetary world. With chart and compass they pilot ships across the mighty deep, and with skillful finger send electric messages around the globe. In galleries of art the beauties of nature and the virtues of humanity are immortalized by them on canvas and by their inspired touch dull blocks of marble are transformed into angels of light.

 

In music they speak again the language of Mendelssohn, Beethoven, Chopin, Schumann, and are worthy interpreters of their great thoughts. The poetry and novels of the century are theirs, and they have touched the keynote of reform in religion, politics, and social life. They fill the editor's and professor's chair and plead at the bar of justice, walk the wards of the hospital, and speak from the pulpit and the platform; such is the type of womanhood that an enlightened public sentiment welcomes to-day, and such the triumph of the facts of life over the false theories of the past.

 

Is it, then, consistent to hold the developed woman of this day within the same narrow political limits as the dame with the spinning wheel and knitting needle occupied in the past? No! no! Machinery has taken the labors of woman as well as man on its tireless shoulders; the loom and the spinning wheel are but dreams of the past; the pen, the brush, the easel, the chisel, have taken their places, while the hopes and ambitions of women are essentially changed.

 

We see reason sufficient in the outer conditions of human beings for individual liberty and development, but when we consider the self dependence of every human soul we see the need of courage, judgment, and the exercise of every faculty of mind and body, strengthened and developed by use, in woman as well as man.

 

Whatever may be said of man's protecting power in ordinary conditions, mid all the terrible disasters by land and sea, in the supreme moments of danger, alone woman must ever meet the horrors of the situation; the Angel of Death even makes no royal pathway for her. Man's love and sympathy enter only into the sunshine of our lives. In that solemn solitude of self, that links us with the immeasurable and the eternal, each soul lives alone forever. A recent writer says:

 

I remember once, in crossing the Atlantic, to have gone upon the deck of the ship at midnight, when a dense black cloud enveloped the sky, and the great deep was roaring madly under the lashes of demoniac winds. My feeling was not of danger or fear (which is a base surrender of the immortal soul), but of utter desolation and loneliness; a little speck of life shut in by a tremendous darkness. Again I remember to have climbed the slopes of the Swiss Alps, up beyond the point where vegetation ceases, and the stunted conifers no longer struggle against the unfeeling blasts. Around me lay a huge confusion of rocks, out of which the gigantic toe peaks shot into the measureless blue of the heavens, and again my only feeling was the awful solitude.

 

And yet, there is a solitude, which each and every one of us has always carried with him more inaccessible than the ice-cold mountains, more profound than the midnight sea; the solitude of self. Our inner being, which we call ourself, no eye nor touch of man or angel has ever pierced. It is more hidden than the caves of the gnome; the sacred adytum of the oracle; the hidden chamber of eleusinian mystery, for to it only omniscience is permitted to enter.

 

Such is individual life. Who, I ask you, can take, dare take, on himself the rights, the duties, the responsibilities of another human soul?

[Lilith]

Appellation,

 

You are not the only one. Several of our members are really struggling in marriages to Christians, liberal or fundy.

 

You are not the only one. One of my friends finally managed to move out yesterday. His miserable marriage to a pentecostal fundy wife was killing him, inch by inch, cell by cell and after a couple years of effort he just couldn't fix the thing.

 

You are not the only one. My marriage, founded on nothing but Christianity, crumbled immediately the minute I departed from that sandy shore.

 

You are not the only one. While some of us struggle to rebuild our lives, others here have found ways of living with the spouses they still love and while it's not easy, it's possible.

 

Intimacy is impossible without being understood. Your heartbreak is reasonable, no matter how you expressed yourself. Your feelings are valid and the relationship is worth fighting for.

 

You are not the only one and you are not alone. I know you are hurting and I'm so sorry you are having to go through this struggle. I'm sorry I have nothing to say to encourage you, but I can sit with you and listen.

 

May your husband's eyes be opened up to his greater love for you.

 

-Reach

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If this isn't encouragement, I don't know what is. Thank you for your kind words. You made me cry all over again (lol).

 

To flood999, I hope your post is relevant. I just skimmed it a moment ago, but plan to read it now. I assume you are trying to give me a message that I am equal to my husband?? I'm not sure. I'll try to read this and see if I can figure out if you are trying to tell me something or not.

[Guest flood999]

If this isn't encouragement, I don't know what is.  Thank you for your kind words.  You made me cry all over again (lol).

 

To flood999, I hope your post is relevant.  I just skimmed it a moment ago, but plan to read it now.  I assume you are trying to give me a message that I am equal to my husband??  I'm not sure.  I'll try to read this and see if I can figure out if you are trying to tell me something or not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, to remember that we each must find our own way in life. That is the real world the only person who we can truly count on is ourselves.

[Lilith]

Yes, to remember that we each must find our own way in life. That is the real world the only person who we can truly count on is ourselves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, I know these things (it's a beautiful speech, btw). This doesn't make what I'm going through presently any easier to go through. In my husband's defense, he was supportive and loving last night while I had my little episode. He said he knew and understood more than I realized, to which I felt only dispair, because I don't believe him. He's never spoken to me about the deep reasoning behind my deconversion. I've tried and he couldn't deal with facing it, so out of love and respect for him, I avoided the subject. I know he loves me, and I him. I don't know if we can overcome this or not. Most days I think we can. Days like yesterday, doubt and fear creep in.

 

Yes, I am a strong woman. Yes, if things fall apart, I will be fine. But I do love him and care for him and I know he feels the same way. It would be a great tragedy for both of us to lose the one great love of our lives.

[Checkmate]

I'm feeling very alone this morning.  My husband's return to church last night was much harder than I imagined it would be.  I had a minor emotional breakdown and was sobbing in front of him and everything.  I was blithering on about how he doesn't understand me, doesn't want to understand me, is going to be turned against me by the members of the church......God, I'm a mess.

 

I HATE this situation! And I HATE this religion that tears families apart! I wish there was more that we could do than send posts to one another. But until that happy day...(*cyber hug!*)

 

Appellation, know that we out here in cyberspace are in YOUR corner! I know something of what you're feeling about being alone. It fairly reeks being married to someone whom you can no longer share ALL your thoughts and feelings.

 

I'm married to a CINO (Christian In Name Only), but she absolutely REFUSES to discuss my unbelief/apostasy/atheism. Oh sure, I'm free to pursue my unbelief to my heart's content, but I'm forbidden to discuss it openly with her OR my own children! (Her rule, NOT mine.)

 

Sometimes I just want to smash something. I'm being pummeled daily by theistic beliefs and yet I'm forbidden to cry out against them.

 

Grrr!

 

Anyway, you hang in there child of reason. And know that you are not alone.

[Lilith]

TK421 and thankful....thank you both.

 

thankful, he found a church "with the gifts of the Spirit".....tongue-talking, miracle working and I'm sure tithe-pushing style. If it was a more liberal church, I'm sure I'd be more able to deal with this better, but there is no chance of that. I hate the fact he got "one up" on me by going there first. I don't feel like we are going there on equal ground any longer. He's already spoken to the pastor (not sure what he's said). I doubt he's said anything of my apostacy, as he sees it as a huge failing on his part.

 

I thought I had this all worked out in my head (how to handle his going back to church). I knew it was coming, but I'm all out of sorts.

[Kryten]

. . .

I'm married to a CINO (Christian In Name Only), but she absolutely REFUSES to discuss my unbelief/apostasy/atheism.  Oh sure, I'm free to pursue my unbelief to my heart's content, but I'm forbidden to discuss it openly with her OR my own children!  (Her rule, NOT mine.)

. . .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm in the exact same relationship with the exception that we aren't married yet. I sympathize and hope eventually she wises up. My signature line is about her type.

 

Appellation-- hang in there! Based on what little I do know about you two, I don't think there is much of a danger of your relationship going sour. He obviously loves you but is probably torn by his indoctrinated fear of hell and other results of rejecting his invisible best friend. Maybe you should show him the If Hell Is Real site. It MAY remove a bit of his bondage and free him up enough to start thinking for himself.

 

Just a thought. I could be waaay off.

[Guest flood999]

Yes, I know these things (it's a beautiful speech, btw).  This doesn't make what I'm going through presently any easier to go through.  In my husband's defense, he was supportive and loving last night while I had my little episode.  He said he knew and understood more than I realized, to which I felt only dispair, because I don't believe him.  He's never spoken to me about the deep reasoning behind my deconversion.  I've tried and he couldn't deal with facing it, so out of love and respect for him, I avoided the subject.  I know he loves me, and I him.  I don't know if we can overcome this or not.  Most days I think we can.  Days like yesterday, doubt and fear creep in.

 

Yes, I am a strong woman.  Yes, if things fall apart, I will be fine.  But I do love him and care for him and I know he feels the same way.  It would be a great tragedy for both of us to lose the one great love of our lives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Perhaps you could come to a common ground. The Unitarian Church is a very good compromise. They welcome people of all beliefs and non-beliefs. It may be a way to find the common ground that you both seek.

[Lilith]

I'm in the exact same relationship with the exception that we aren't married yet.  I sympathize and hope eventually she wises up.  My signature line is about her type.

 

Appellation-- hang in there!  Based on what little I do know about you two, I don't think there is much of a danger of your relationship going sour.  He obviously loves you but is probably torn by his indoctrinated fear of hell and other results of rejecting his invisible best friend. Maybe you should show him the If Hell Is Real site.  It MAY remove a bit of his bondage and free him up enough to start thinking for himself.

 

Just a thought.  I could be waaay off.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a good link. Thank you. I doubt he'll ever read it, though it may come in handy for discussion with his pastor, if I ever get to that point.

[Lilith]

Perhaps you could come to a common ground.  The Unitarian Church is a very good compromise. They welcome people of all beliefs and non-beliefs. It may be a way to find the common ground that you both seek.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He will never go to any church but a fundamentalist type. Ever. I would love to find that common ground/compromise, but I know him.

[LloydDobler]

Show him this, appellation...

 

  12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

 

It might give him some peace till he comes around to the dark side.

[Guest flood999]

He will never go to any church but a fundamentalist type.  Ever.  I would love to find that common ground/compromise, but I know him.

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I understand what you are going through. Although not with a spouse. My parents are fundies. When I was 19 they told me that if I didn't reject my godless lifestyle and embrace their version of Christianity that they would not speak to me again until I returned to the righteous life. They had an "intervention" where they gathered a number of their fundie family members an attempted to convince me that I was evil and that I was going to go to hell. Everytime I would try to tell them that I didn't share their beliefs they would tell me that Satan was "making" me say that. I wasn't a bad kid. I didn't do drugs or anything like that I just didn't believe in Christianity anymore. Everytime I would question their beliefs they would belittle me and make me feel like I was a bad person. Eventually I told them that they would be able to convince me of that I was wrong. After 3 years of this back and forth we parted ways. I tried to call them once but they told me that they didn't want to talk unless I was ready to apologize.

I still find it difficult to understand how they could do this. Why they couldn't accept me for who I am? It is very difficult when someone you love rejects what you believe. It makes you feel rejected as a person. I guess it helps to have someplace to vent your frustations. To have someone to listen to you. This place seems a pretty good place for that.

[Lilith]

Show him this, appellation...

It might give him some peace till he comes around to the dark side.

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"Till he comes to the dark side..."

 

LOL

 

Yes, I don't have any fear of him divorcing me on grounds I am no longer a xian. That really isn't the issue. My heart breaks over our lack of common ground, our inability to communicate and for him to see why I've deconverted. My heart breaks for the loss of a love that I once had in *Jesus* and Christianity. My heart breaks over the fact that even if I do go to church, it will never be the same for me again. My heart breaks because I know he feels like all of this is his fault, even though we all know it isn't. It also breaks because I know he feels a huge burden to pray for me now....and to see me come back to the fold. And it breaks for him because I know that will never happen.

[Lilith]

I understand what you are going through.   Although not with a spouse.   My parents are fundies.   When I was 19 they told me that if I didn't reject my godless lifestyle and embrace their version of Christianity that they would not speak to me again until I returned to the righteous life.  They had an "intervention"  where they gathered a number of their fundie family members an attempted to convince me that I was evil and that I was going to go to hell.  Everytime I would try to tell them that I didn't share their beliefs they would tell me that Satan was "making" me say that.  I wasn't a bad kid.  I didn't do drugs or anything like that I just didn't believe in Christianity anymore.   Everytime I would question their beliefs they would belittle me and make me feel like I was a bad person.   Eventually I told them that they would be able to convince me of that I was wrong.   After 3 years of this back and forth we parted ways.  I tried to call them once but they told me that they didn't want to talk unless I was ready to apologize.  

I still find it difficult to understand how they could do this.   Why they couldn't accept me for who I am?  It is very difficult when someone you love rejects what you believe.   It makes you feel rejected as a person.  I guess it helps to have someplace to vent your frustations.  To have someone to listen to you.  This place seems a pretty good place for that.

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How horrifying, to have parents say that to you. But yes, that is pretty much the fundy mind-set. Fortunately he hasn't (yet) said any of this to me. I think because I know the potential is there, that's what bothers me.

 

And yes, coming here helps a lot. It's good to talk to people that at least can empathize.

[Guest flood999]

How horrifying, to have parents say that to you.  But yes, that is pretty much the fundy mind-set.  Fortunately he hasn't (yet) said any of this to me.  I think because I know the potential is there, that's what bothers me.

 

And yes, coming here helps a lot.  It's good to talk to people that at least can empathize.

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I guess the most important thing to remember is to be true to yourself.

[Lilith]

I guess the most important thing to remember is to be true to yourself.

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To the best of my ability, always. Of course, I have to preface that with "I am willing to suspend my own truth for the moment, if it means peace/happiness in the long run." But it's not something I intend to suspend indefinitely.

[Disco Stu]

I am in a similar situation. Over a year ago my wife became a christian and it broke my heart. However, I set some ground rules like no xtian stuff in the house, no xtian events in the house and she will not talk to me about any xtian stuff at all. She goes to church every sunday and sing in the choir. It makes her happy so I bear with it. I use to ask her questions about her faith that she could not anser but it was irratating her. She knows where I stand and eventually she will realize the erros in her ways after she gets burned a few more times. She takes our kids to church but they are too young to understand my views. As soon as they are teenagers I will start discussing with them about my beliefs on atheism.

 

I know it is hard to deal with a religious spouse but just show him that you are a wonderful person and occassionally ask him to clarify his beliefs on why god caused something to happen. (e.g. the london bombings today, tsunami in december etc.) I passively ask my wife those questions to get her thinking about her beliefs.

 

I hope this helps

[Lilith]

I am in a similar situation.  Over a year ago my wife became a christian and it broke my heart.  However, I set some ground rules like no xtian stuff in the house, no xtian events in the house and she will not talk to me about any xtian stuff at all.  She goes to church every sunday and sing in the choir.  It makes her happy so I bear with it.  I use to ask her questions about her faith that she could not anser but it was irratating her.  She knows where I stand and eventually she will realize the erros in her ways after she gets burned a few more times.  She takes our kids to church but they are too young to understand my views.  As soon as they are teenagers I will start discussing with them about my beliefs on atheism. 

 

I know it is hard to deal with a religious spouse but just show him that you are a wonderful person and occassionally ask him to clarify his beliefs on why god caused something to happen.  (e.g. the london bombings today, tsunami in december etc.)  I passively ask my wife those questions to get her thinking about  her beliefs.

 

I hope this helps

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It helps to hear about others going through similar circumstances. Thank you.

[Guest flood999]

To the best of my ability, always.  Of course, I have to preface that with "I am willing to suspend my own truth for the moment, if it means peace/happiness in the long run."  But it's not something I intend to suspend indefinitely.

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Good!!! I do hope that everything works out for the best. Don't forget that many of the people on this board have been through what you are going through and you are not alone.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Libby...

 

Nothing specific for your situation.

 

Will remind you that there are more than a few of we who know you and respect the lady and person behind the keyboard and scripts left on the boards..

 

Quite a few folks here with the gentle hands and advises that will help the immediate.

 

My PM is always open and anytime you need a sage sented shoulder to lean on, you know where to drop that line.

 

kL

[Lilith]

Libby...

 

Nothing specific for your situation.

 

Will remind you that there are more than a few of we who know you and respect the lady and person behind the keyboard and scripts left on the boards..

 

Quite a few folks here with the gentle hands and advises that will help the immediate.

 

My PM is always open and anytime you need a sage sented shoulder to lean on, you know where to drop that line.

 

kL

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Thanks nivek....

 

::hug::

[BigToe]

*hug* Sorry you had the melt down. And I hope it doesn't happen often, because I know that's no fun to deal with

 

I also know he loves you a lot, he follows you around like a little puppy for goodness sakes. Even just when we had lunch I could tell how much he loves you. And I really don't think him going to church will change that. At least, judging from what I saw. His eyes literally sparkled when he was looking at you. And hun, if that happens at that mexican food place, I can only imagine it in um nicer situation

 

As far as the two of you not really talking in detail about your elephant in the corner... I don't really know what to say. Perhaps he doesn't want to say anything that might come out in a way that hurts you? Or maybe he is scared that you'll say you can't be with him?

 

And you know that if you ever need to take a weekend away (a girls weekend out!) you can come stay with me and we'll have some fun. My treat. You're an amazing person and deserve nothing more than to be treated well and to be happy. You've been an incredible friend to me (especially with my own melt down haha) so I just hope I can be even a fraction as good a friend to you.

 

Now, go snuggle your doggie and stay cool, it's hot there!