Pensive

[zefferus]

Hello,

 

I'm getting tired of lurking, and I have a question that I feel begs to be addressed. Why, after accepting unbelief over fantasy, do I find it so hard to let go of this obsession with religion? Why can't I just carry on with my life in equanimity, and give up this obviously futile attempt to make sense of something that makes no sense? I mean it feels so negative and self-defeating to be stuck here trying to resolve past issues, when what I really want is to move on to a more positive and satisfying life. There must be a point where I can let go of resentment and find a way to live without emotional walls to guard against the risk of being rejected, or punished for my lack of belief in God. I do enough avoiding and guarding as it is, without this extra burden. I know this may sound like "Drama", and I don't mean to whine. I'm becoming exhausted and frustrated with this, and I'm ready to get over it.

 

gd

[Sophronia]

I think it is because religion can be a traumatic experience. And it takes a while, often a lifetime, to "get over" it. Sometimes there is no "getting over" it, and we will have to work with these issues for the rest of our lives.

 

Sorry if that sounds gloomy. It's just that your comments resonate with me, not in the religion field, but in terms of recovering from assault and abuse. It's a very similar situation and feeling.

[Knitterman]

Hello,

 

I'm getting tired of lurking, and I have a question that I feel begs to be addressed. Why, after accepting unbelief over fantasy, do I find it so hard to let go of this obsession with religion? Why can't I just carry on with my life in equanimity, and give up this obviously futile attempt to make sense of something that makes no sense? I mean it feels so negative and self-defeating to be stuck here trying to resolve past issues, when what I really want is to move on to a more positive and satisfying life. There must be a point where I can let go of resentment and find a way to live without emotional walls to guard against the risk of being rejected, or punished for my lack of belief in God. I do enough avoiding and guarding as it is, without this extra burden. I know this may sound like "Drama", and I don't mean to whine. I'm becoming exhausted and frustrated with this, and I'm ready to get over it.

 

gd

 

Wow. I came to post a new thread, and you've just provided a great opening for it.

 

I was in my shower, doing what I normally do in the shower (film at 11), and thinking about the vacillations that occur after deconverting. Now, as I've mentioned elsewhere, I left the funda-gelical area over 20 years ago, and in the ensuing years explored a variety of other paths until I finally realized it's all just crap.

 

And I was thinking about the "why doesn't God heal amputees?" question.

 

And then I was thinking about people who leave Christianity but still have twinges of "what if?" or "wow that feels familiar".

 

And it hit me: The Phantom Leg Syndrome!!! Many amputees have said that after losing a limb, they continue to "feel" sensation from the limb that use to be there. They KNOW it isn't there, they can SEE it isn't there, but they still have the occasional sensations as if it were still there.

 

So I'm thinking, okay I KNOW there's no God there, my belief if God has no ground or foundation, and I am functioning in my life without God just fine.... so why do I get these twinges now again as if God is still there?

 

I suppose it makes a difference how long a person was a Christian, or deeply involved they were, but I'm wondering if this has any correlation?

 

I'm probably not expressing it correctly, and it may not even be an adequate comparison, but it may have relevance here or somewhere.

 

I mean, after amputating a limb, you don't usually just get up and go on with life. Even though belief is not a tangible physical limb it is still a mental/emotional appendage, and its removal creates a void or absence, which I think is different from what never-been-a-Christian people might comprehend. So the life of a used-to-be-a-Christian person will always be pre-amputation, and post-amputation, and figuring out how to function in life without that appendage. And, I'd guess that just like a real-limb amputee, it's a process not a once-and-done event. At least that's how it was/is for me.

 

(Mind you, I'm not an amputee and I may be talking out of school, projecting my own perspective, but it makes sense in my mind.)

 

Anyway, I hope that makes sense to someone else. :-)

[PaleLady]

Hello,

 

I'm getting tired of lurking, and I have a question that I feel begs to be addressed. Why, after accepting unbelief over fantasy, do I find it so hard to let go of this obsession with religion? Why can't I just carry on with my life in equanimity, and give up this obviously futile attempt to make sense of something that makes no sense? I mean it feels so negative and self-defeating to be stuck here trying to resolve past issues, when what I really want is to move on to a more positive and satisfying life. There must be a point where I can let go of resentment and find a way to live without emotional walls to guard against the risk of being rejected, or punished for my lack of belief in God. I do enough avoiding and guarding as it is, without this extra burden. I know this may sound like "Drama", and I don't mean to whine. I'm becoming exhausted and frustrated with this, and I'm ready to get over it.

 

gd

 

Wow. I came to post a new thread, and you've just provided a great opening for it.

 

I was in my shower, doing what I normally do in the shower (film at 11), and thinking about the vacillations that occur after deconverting. Now, as I've mentioned elsewhere, I left the funda-gelical area over 20 years ago, and in the ensuing years explored a variety of other paths until I finally realized it's all just crap.

 

And I was thinking about the "why doesn't God heal amputees?" question.

 

And then I was thinking about people who leave Christianity but still have twinges of "what if?" or "wow that feels familiar".

 

And it hit me: The Phantom Leg Syndrome!!! Many amputees have said that after losing a limb, they continue to "feel" sensation from the limb that use to be there. They KNOW it isn't there, they can SEE it isn't there, but they still have the occasional sensations as if it were still there.

 

So I'm thinking, okay I KNOW there's no God there, my belief if God has no ground or foundation, and I am functioning in my life without God just fine.... so why do I get these twinges now again as if God is still there?

 

I suppose it makes a difference how long a person was a Christian, or deeply involved they were, but I'm wondering if this has any correlation?

 

I'm probably not expressing it correctly, and it may not even be an adequate comparison, but it may have relevance here or somewhere.

 

I mean, after amputating a limb, you don't usually just get up and go on with life. Even though belief is not a tangible physical limb it is still a mental/emotional appendage, and its removal creates a void or absence, which I think is different from what never-been-a-Christian people might comprehend. So the life of a used-to-be-a-Christian person will always be pre-amputation, and post-amputation, and figuring out how to function in life without that appendage. And, I'd guess that just like a real-limb amputee, it's a process not a once-and-done event. At least that's how it was/is for me.

 

(Mind you, I'm not an amputee and I may be talking out of school, projecting my own perspective, but it makes sense in my mind.)

 

Anyway, I hope that makes sense to someone else. :-)

Hello, first post for me, as I just joined the other day,

The phantom leg syndrome idea is brilliant! It makes perfect sense to me and, as a new (and ongoing) deconvert, I just want to thank you for posting it.

[Kenny]

I mean it feels so negative and self-defeating to be stuck here trying to resolve past issues, when what I really want is to move on to a more positive and satisfying life. There must be a point where I can let go of resentment and find a way to live without emotional walls to guard against the risk of being rejected, or punished for my lack of belief in God.

 

I want to encourage you by letting you know that you're not alone. We're all, to some extent, wounded by religion. A wound will heal, but it generally leaves a scar. You're wounds appear to be fresh and, perhaps, you're picking at them. I say this only because I feel the need to pick at my own wounds now and again. But healing is what you need and time and care will bring it about. (Someone mentioned once that even the word "healing" made them wince. I understood that and you may, as well.)

 

I'm keying in on RESENTMENT. You've identified a major problem and for that fact alone, pat yourself on the back. You're bitter and resentful and it's okay to admit that. You could probably go on and on listing the ways you've been hurt and maybe doing that will be good for you. On a personal level, simply acknowledging the resentment allowed me to begin cutting my losses. By that, I mean to say that the damage was done and I could meditate and feed on that or I could vow to put it behind me. I became very hateful inside due to the wrongs that I felt had been dealt by Christianity and its followers and I was in the right to feel that way. I had every justification for my thoughts and feelings. This may be the case with you, too. But it must come to a point in time where you face the resentment and realize that it's historical data. You invested in something that looked good and right and now you've seen there was no return on your investment. It's natural to be upset and to feel cheated, so face that. Accept it. Choose not to allow that to happen to you again. But realize that you cannot recoup your original investment. It's gone.

 

You are still YOU, however. If you were fun-loving and carefree, you can return to that state again. You must want to. You may have to work toward a mindset that was once natural for you. You may have been a trusting and compassionate individual before the damage made you recoil, internalize, and suspect everyone's motives and intentions. You can find your way back to being that open and caring person again. Yes, you're a changed individual... but you have yet to reach a point of no return.

 

You're not alone, friend. You can find your way back. You need time and you need to be very easy on yourself. Again, you're not alone.

[par4dcourse]

You likely had religion pounded into you over years. It takes time and patience to "unlearn" the dogma. Patience.

[Mandatory Chaos]

You likely had religion pounded into you over years. It takes time and patience to "unlearn" the dogma. Patience.

 

Not to mention the constant bombardment of religion we get from others everyday. It's hard to forget about it when it's so ingrained in the public consciousness.

[Amethyst]

Constant indoctrination, especially over a long period of time and if you are in a community that is very indoctrinated, makes it very hard to let go of that religion. Getting over it does happen with time but there's a process, similar to the grief process.

[white_raven23]

Here's another analogy to go along with that excellent phantom leg one.

 

Let's say someone close to you...dies. You go through all the stages of grief (and you go through the same stages when you leave religion) just the way you are supposed to. Think you are done?

 

What if someone thought it was appropriate to make fun of people who die and those who mourn them? What if a LOT of people thought this was okay? What if it was socially acceptable to pretend death was not real, and it were socially acceptable to insult the people who believed in death? What if these people went so far as to tell you...to your face....that your loved one isn't really dead, they just don't like you anymore so they are hiding from you?

 

What do you think would happen with your stages of grief then? You could expect to have some repeats of several stages...and if the culture is unsupportive, then you never really would be "done" with your grief.

 

Sounds crazy no? But the kind of fictional horrific treatment I mentioned in the Hypothetical Twisted-death anti-reality is EXACTLY how people who abandon faith are treated by the majority who still believe.

[XCCC]

I think I knew that I was finally over the resentment phase when I could turn on a christian program (radio/tv/whatever) and not get mad but really laugh. For awhile those programs or people would anger me because I was still defensive. I finally got to the point where I'm no longer mad about any of it and I actually turn it on once in awhile to marvel at the stupidity. I admit I'm still not out of the almost obsessive interest in all things post-christian. But for me it's a pleasant experience and an incredibly empowering one. Hang in there!

[zefferus]

Thanks, everyone for the thoughtful and supportive replies. I like the phantom limb analogy, it makes a lot of sense. As for resentments, I've got em, for sure, and I'll probably need to unload about them again at some point. I agree, this a process much like grieving over a loss, or a death. I want to take some time to absorb the information eveyone shared.

 

Again, thanks.

gd

[godlessgrrl]

Religious indoctrination is a major mindfuck. It takes over your brain, your feelings, your life, your way of looking at the world. Indoctrination of any kind is intended to eliminate your true self and replace it with a different person entirely; religious indoctrination is no exception. Why do you think they call it being Born Again? It's because the real you has to be eliminated - repressed, sublimated, excised, symbolically "killed", before being reborn as a newer, better, doctrinally sound someone. In other words, it all amounts to a rape and murder of your being, a violation and destruction (or deconstruction) of the unique individual that you are and always have been.

 

But once you figure out that it's all wrong and you leave, maybe you're out of the religion, sure - but everywhere you go, your rapist is there. It isn't like churches are hidden in people's basements, for instance - not at all. There are churches on every street, preachers on street corners, people wearing religious jewelry, injecting god and Jeebus into their conversations... religion is in the public eye, everywhere. You can't get away from it.

 

To add insult to injury, it isn't enough that religion fucks people's minds on a private level - religious asshats have to take their religion into the political arena as well. The political/religious lobby has held back science, tried to limit access to family planning, spent decades vilifying the GLBT community, blocked stem cell research, upheld blue laws... so even when you manage to get out, you're still getting salt rubbed in some very raw, deep wounds. Reminders of a system that damaged you are everywhere; not only that, they still impact your life, and what really sucks is that everybody thinks it's okay. Religion gets a free pass to foster all kinds of douchebaggery, because challenging it is unthinkable for most people.

 

So if you're angry and resentful, well - fuck, so am I! At least you know where you're at and where you want to be. The only thing I can say is, healing from mindfucks can take a long time. It'll just take as long as it takes. Don't heal on anybody else's timeline or to anyone else's demands, either - you'll get there when and as you're able to. And you'll probably cycle back into old, painful places for the rest of your life, they'll just be softer and less powerful each time. It doesn't help to beat yourself up for not being enlightened enough yet or forgiving enough yet or whatever. You'll get there when you get there.

[Kenny]

You may fire when ready, GD. We'll listen.

[GraphicsGuy]

What if someone thought it was appropriate to make fun of people who die and those who mourn them? What if a LOT of people thought this was okay? What if it was socially acceptable to pretend death was not real, and it were socially acceptable to insult the people who believed in death? What if these people went so far as to tell you...to your face....that your loved one isn't really dead, they just don't like you anymore so they are hiding from you?

 

Goddamn...it's posts like this one that make me admire you, Raven...well, well done!

 

Grieving is how my counsellor stated it for me as well. Same emotions, reactions, sense of loss, etc. Loss of faith can very much be a raw, bleeding, open wound that is very tender for a long time. Nothing but time heals it and the scars may never leave...I'm hoping they will, but they get torn open an awful lot as well...

[zefferus]

Religious indoctrination is a major mindfuck. It takes over your brain, your feelings, your life, your way of looking at the world. Indoctrination of any kind is intended to eliminate your true self and replace it with a different person entirely; religious indoctrination is no exception. Why do you think they call it being Born Again? It's because the real you has to be eliminated - repressed, sublimated, excised, symbolically "killed", before being reborn as a newer, better, doctrinally sound someone. In other words, it all amounts to a rape and murder of your being, a violation and destruction (or deconstruction) of the unique individual that you are and always have been.

 

But once you figure out that it's all wrong and you leave, maybe you're out of the religion, sure - but everywhere you go, your rapist is there. It isn't like churches are hidden in people's basements, for instance - not at all. There are churches on every street, preachers on street corners, people wearing religious jewelry, injecting god and Jeebus into their conversations... religion is in the public eye, everywhere. You can't get away from it.

 

To add insult to injury, it isn't enough that religion fucks people's minds on a private level - religious asshats have to take their religion into the political arena as well. The political/religious lobby has held back science, tried to limit access to family planning, spent decades vilifying the GLBT community, blocked stem cell research, upheld blue laws... so even when you manage to get out, you're still getting salt rubbed in some very raw, deep wounds. Reminders of a system that damaged you are everywhere; not only that, they still impact your life, and what really sucks is that everybody thinks it's okay. Religion gets a free pass to foster all kinds of douchebaggery, because challenging it is unthinkable for most people.

 

So if you're angry and resentful, well - fuck, so am I! At least you know where you're at and where you want to be. The only thing I can say is, healing from mindfucks can take a long time. It'll just take as long as it takes. Don't heal on anybody else's timeline or to anyone else's demands, either - you'll get there when and as you're able to. And you'll probably cycle back into old, painful places for the rest of your life, they'll just be softer and less powerful each time. It doesn't help to beat yourself up for not being enlightened enough yet or forgiving enough yet or whatever. You'll get there when you get there.

 

 

What can I say?

 

After reading this I'm well and truly pissed!

 

Thanks, by the way, for expressing in a few concise paragraphs, a lot of what I've been thinking about and feeling since this whole clusterfuck got started. I knew someone had to understand, and I was right.

[Ouroboros]

I'm getting tired of lurking, and I have a question that I feel begs to be addressed. Why, after accepting unbelief over fantasy, do I find it so hard to let go of this obsession with religion? Why can't I just carry on with my life in equanimity, and give up this obviously futile attempt to make sense of something that makes no sense?

Part of it is that it's hard to admit to oneself that you have been had. It's just like the old ladies that are tricked to pay money to fake investments and stuff, and when they get to know it was all fraud, they still keep on defending the perpetrators, because they're ashamed and can't admit being fooled. Pride is probably one of the strongest emotions we have. And we hate to have our pride hurt (at least a lot of people are like that.) When you finally realize that you have been living a lie for so many years, and that you couldn't see it until now, it hurts. It's personal. And for many, it's hard to come to terms with one's own faults, and accepting that this is one of the "bugs in the system" of human nature, that we are gullible. That's why it takes courage and honesty to leave a religion, and allowing to heal from that hurt pride. And for some, it's easier to go back than to accept this.

[zefferus]

This Sucks!

[Kenny]

Good first step!!!

 

Keep going...

[Ouroboros]

This Sucks!

Sorry, it's just my opinion. Maybe I should have put in a bit more IMO...

[zefferus]

This Sucks!

Sorry, it's just my opinion. Maybe I should have put in a bit more IMO...

 

 

No fault of yours. I was just venting about how much I hate going through this process. What you say about pride is true, though I don't like to admit it. Also it's painful to look at how easily I can be persuaded, sometimes against my better judgement, just because I want to be accepted and feel like I belong. Religion is great at snaring people when they're weak and vulnerable. I think I had doubts most of the time I was active in the church. I didn't look too closely for fear of being rejected. I hope this makes some sense. My thoughts are a little scattered right now.

 

Thanks

gd

[bellsybop]

I do it too if that makes anyone feel better. It's like I want to change the world.. like I've just found a gold mine and want to share it with everyone and no one believes me. I can make them richer (knowledge) and they scoff at the prospect. I just keep telling myself that you can lead a horse to water, but can't make it drink. Nonetheless, it still irritates the hell out of me.