"thou Shalt Not Lie"

[crazy-tiger]

We've all heard the Commandments... (well, one version of them anyway) and #9 keeps popping up all over the place.

 

#9 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. (KJV)

 

 

It's interesting to examine that commandment closely... It doesn't give a blanket "Lying is a sin" vibe. All it gives is a commandment to not falsely accuse your neighbour of a crime. (bear in mind the way things were back then in that area... no prosecutors, just an accuser and witness/es who were all too often the same person)

Why it had to be made into a Commandment is debatable, since they did have the custom (or maybe law, not sure about which) where someone who falsely accused/witnessed someone would undergo the same punishment the accused would be subjected to... and since way too many of those punishments entailed death by some quite nasty ways, did they really need it to be a Commandment?

 

But, even with it as a Commandment, it's rather specific... none of this "No lying, EVER!" stuff that it's commonly read as. Nor does it condemn people who lie as sinners, unless it's re the above. It's in no way the Commandment that Christians, and others, claim it is...

 

 

So what does that do to the claim that the anyone who's ever lied is a sinner? Well, it shows it to be nothing more than a lie... and anyone who attempts to use that kind of argument (Roy Comfort, I'm looking at you right now) is showing only that they believe something the Bible doesn't say... and lying to boot. It also means that all those fuckwits out there that come out with total bollocks to back up their inane claims about Christianity aren't doing anything wrong according to the Bible.

 

So Christians... you can lie your fucking heads of about what Evolution is, about what Darwin said, about what Atheists are like. Lie all you want... because God doesn't give a flying fuck if you do!

 

 

 

Anyone who's thought this through will have realised by now that this makes the Bible a lot less of a moral basis than Christians like to think it is... not that it's a surprise.

[ShackledNoMore]

It was Revelation 21:8 that was constantly cited at my house:

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

Covered it all: atheists/agnostics/non-xians, any sexual "impurity," anything that could be construed as occult, including the fortune cookies and the horoscope in the paper, as well as lying.

 

I agree that the Ninth doesn't spell it out as it is represented (and it is usually misquoted as "Thou shalt not lie") but there are several passages outside of the 10 commandments that more or less seem to condemn lying.

 

The thing is, lying is frequently represented as an absolute, and always totally sinful, as much so as murder. The popular misquote "thou shalt not lie" is frequently juxtaposed with someone saying "thou shalt not kill" in the same breath. Of course rigid law, inflexible decrees, black and white thinking, and absolutes are all cornerstones of this accursed religion.

 

And the WAY the edict against lying is fed to some of the sheep, lends itself to as much dysfunction and hypocrisy as the denial of sexuality. There's all sorts of rationalization about what is lying and what isn't and some brazen compartmentalization going on.

 

A lot of what it boils down to is that the bible is not a particularly well constructed document, there's lots of room to use it to fit your purpose (read how to cultivate your sheeple), and it's only a portion of what constitutes popular xian doctrine and thought. It's not its purpose to provide a strong moral basis: if it really did, then then it wouldn't make such a superb tool.

 

To this day, I'm inclined to give a deftly evasive answer to "does this dress make me look fat" type questions in favor of a brazen "no," yet some say an evasive answer is every bit as much lying. Then for the classic logical extreme example, what do you say when the Nazis come rounding up Jews to send to their death, and they ask you if you've seen any and you are hiding some? No wonder the xian psyche is such a mess.

[Piprus]

Lying can get pretty complex. There was a show on a couple of years back with John Stossel about this very topic, and the point was made that lying is something just about everyone does. There are the "evil lies", those meant to hurt or malign someone, there are "white lies" done to spare one's feelings. And then there's equivocation, lying by omission of some relevant information, etc. etc.

 

But I agree with C-T's original post. I think in the context of the Big 10, which in context describe basic no-no's that people in an orderly community should abide by, #9 involves being truthful as a witness on behalf of or against another person. To not bear "false witness", whether that person in question did good or bad. Just tell the truth, as we swear to do on a witness stand in the courtroom forum to this day. In the broader context, however, a liar is a person whose word just can't be trusted, because you can't discern when he/she is actually telling the truth. So if you want to be respected, be honest.

[Taphophilia]

Ray Comfort is just a dipshit idiot who claimed that a genetically altered banana was proof of the existence of a god. Which is the same thing as saying seedless grapes, oranges, and watermelon are proof of god.

 

I went on Ray Comfort's site, "The Way of The Master" a while ago and answered his pop-up questionaire. I answered that I had never broken any one of the ten commandments and according to them, I was still going to hell. It doesn't matter how you answer the questionaire, it's all the same response, "you are going to hell".

[SWIM]

If it was actually worded "thou shalt not lie" you would have idiots founding "Church Of The Ever Standing"...

 

 

[hereticzero]

christians lie through their teeth about false works and wonders of the spirit in order to further their cause for christianity. they disregard whatever suits them in order to gain members of the cult.

[Ouroboros]

If it was actually worded "thou shalt not lie" you would have idiots founding "Church Of The Ever Standing"...

CURSES!!! Damn u! I was about to make a joke about the same thing. (But yours were better. )

[R. S. Martin]

It was Revelation 21:8 that was constantly cited at my house:

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

Covered it all: atheists/agnostics/non-xians, any sexual "impurity," anything that could be construed as occult, including the fortune cookies and the horoscope in the paper, as well as lying.

 

 

I can't say that it was "constantly cited," but I do remember Dad finding it in the New Testament and reading it, then emphasizing the "all liars" part. I could never figure my father out when it came to truth-telling and lying and bearing false witness. He had no scrupples breaking the law when it came to quota on how many laying hens he could have. He just put some of the hens in the names of his children. I don't know how that worked because we never saw any of the money. He got the idea from the man who sold him the baby chicks. He seemed to see that guy as a man who could do no wrong. I could never reconcile that with being honest. To me, he was lying on his income tax and whatever else was involved. The NT says "render to Caeser the things that are Caeser's." Not that Dad had anything to render to Caeser but even so....he could have been honest and dealt with the problem honestly.

 

Then for the classic logical extreme example, what do you say when the Nazis come rounding up Jews to send to their death, and they ask you if you've seen any and you are hiding some?

 

Here's a story Dad told and he thought it was incredibly smart. It's an Anabaptist story, the religious heroes of the Mennonites. The man had a price on his head and his wife hid him behind a cupboard of some sort. She passed him food but didn't actually see him. When the police showed up at the door and asked for him she told them, "I haven't seen him in three days." Dad insisted she spoke truthfully because she hadn't actually seen him. He laughed at the joke on the authorities.

 

However, we kids were taught very strictly that if we saw one of our siblings disobey a rule at home or at school, we were responsible to report it to Mom and Dad. And if we dared lie about it, we could expect to be in HUGE TROUBLE.

 

Apparently it was okay to lie to the government any way you could get away with, regardless of what the Bible said. But lying to your parents or school or church authorities was anathema. Is this just what happens when people are forced into civil disobedience when their government asks them to violate their consciences? My parents grew up during World War 2. As Mennonites with a pacifist theology, their families did not support the war. Because of the draft, there was considerable hostility from neighbours who suffered casualties in the war, regardless of their personal feelings about the legitimacy of the war. Did this teach my father not to trust the government and to lie to the authorities?

 

The same applied to the Anabaptists. I understand that they were openly persecuted--imprisoned, tortured, and executed by various means. The incentive to lie about someone's whereabouts would have been huge if you thought you had half a chance to get away with it. Yet these same people would go to prison, torture, and death rather than take the oath. Not because they intended to be disloyal but because they believed it was wrong to swear an oath. Jesus said, "Let your yea be yea and your nay be nay. Anything more than that is of the devil" and "I tell you, swear not at all." So they refused to swear the oath.

 

Of course rigid law, inflexible decrees, black and white thinking, and absolutes are all cornerstones of this accursed religion.

 

Except when it serves their purpose. The powerful get to make the rules. If you're a kid you better live by those rules whether or not they make any sense or fit the Bible. If you've got a conscience about hell and your dad lies about you on his income tax then you've simply got a problem and that's all there's to it. You don't want god to smite your father and you don't want god to smite you. But there's not much you can do to get your father not to list a couple hundred laying hens in your name because if you try he will threaten not to get you any winter boots this year and you know your feet would freeze without them. You also know that money is so tight that he really doesn't have too many options. Or so he says and as a kid you don't really know all the details of the adult world.

 

What you do know is that when it's you who is being untruthful and bearing false witness, you don't get off making jokes and bragging about it.

 

To this day I'm confused around the morality of right and wrong when it comes to truthfulness. I learned what qualifies as truth with my own people. But mainstream society in this area uses different standards. My people just put it bluntly and say they're lying.

 

Yet some of the things you list, SNM, would be considered by my people as "not lying."

[Taphophilia]

I always thought there was a difference between truth and honesty. Truth is concrete facts such as, what time it is, where you grew up, your bank balance, etc. etc. Honesty is more subjective and easier to misrepresent. It's who a person is and how they feel. You can be truthful without being honest. At least for me, honesty is so much more important than truth.

 

Here's a line from my favorite poem:

 

It doesn't interest me if the story you are telling me is true. I want to know if you can disappoint another to be true to yourself; if you can bear the accusation of betrayal and not betray your own soul; if you can be faithless and therefore trustworthy.

[Onyx]

Lies can be a bad or complex or insignificant or good thing.

 

The bad lies are when you are trying to hide a crime or a betrayal of a good person. When a politician lies, it's a bad thing to do. Conning also fall into this category.

Complex lies are when you have to dodge taxes and other boring monetary stuff or civil disobedience- it depends on your true motives here.

Insignificant lies are when you lie to your wife about how fat she is or lie about a birthday party you will hold for that person in order to surprise him.

Good lies are when you are lying to save your own and others' lives in immense danger of the holocausts, misrules, dictatorships or gangs.

 

So the only bad lies are the first ones and the truly bad lies everybody must avoid is the first listed though complex lies can be allowed providing that you have a noble motive for but otherwise if you don't then you should not be lying.

Insignificiant lies are that, insignificant.

Good lies are vital in times of crises or danger. I won't hold that against anyone who has to lie to save innocent people's lives.

 

This is one of my complaints about The Bible is that it doesn't accomodate real life. It is rather black and white in its ways. Yes many people can twist it to fit their agendas but in the end, it's a rather black and white book if taken literally.

And it even lies!

[ShackledNoMore]

Ruby, the sorts of gymnastics you describe in your Menonite community and for the Anabaptists have a ring of familiarity about them. The not having seen the man in three days is EXACTLY the sort of style I used to employ to avoid telling anyone any unreasonable thing they asked of me, and I was very good at it. It's like Taph's distinction between truth and honesty, except it relies on various misdirection techniques without technically saying anything that is untrue.

 

For me, instead of baby chicks, it was my mother lying about our address to get me a library card. No technicalities there, it was brazen, and very uncomfortable, since I piped up in front of the librarian to correct her, drawing upon the absolute that had been so well ingrained that we NEVER lie (she gave a previous address--I was able to interpret it as an oversight at first). After being soundly put in my place I weaseled out and withdrew my correction, trying to make it seem as though I was just confused without technically uttering any untruth. The librarian gave me a card. When you first notice stuff like that, it haunts you for a long time.

 

Of course, there's this to consider: how is it reasonable to have to disclose certain things that we should never have been called upon to disclose (or subjectively, that we think we should never have been called upon to disclose). One way that many people handle this is by lying, either outright or by employing some form of deceit. Indeed, there are instances where it's justified (e.g., protecting somebody), where it is wrong (or nefarious), and all sorts of gray areas in between. It IS complex.

 

In your father's case, perhaps he felt that his chickens and the quotas the government placed on them were not really the government's business. He would have had to compartmentalize or something to deal with the dissonance, given that pesky "render to Caeser" clause and that he was supposed to shun lying, but he wouldn't have been the first xian to somehow get past all that.