Deva Posted March 1, 2008 Author Share Posted March 1, 2008 It gets kind of crazy when you follow this idea for awhile, kind of like thinking that everything may be a dream, but the dream is God's. It just doesn't make sense, the ideas of the Bible when thought out and carried through don't make sense without serious rationalization. Either that or blithe acceptance of it as "the way things are" (some xians seem to think its a virtue), I don't see that there is much difference between that and being insane. I vote insanity. I agree, the ideas of the Bible don't make sense. They are inconsistent. Thoughts on the "free will" of God and the cognative dissonance between the idea of God being omnipotent and then at the same time wondering "is this the will of God?" To me, this is the stuff of insanity. There is just no way I could live my life with any sense of peace and trying to understand and reconcile all that. Actually I think "the blithe acceptance of it as the way things are" is much less difficult on the mental faculties than constantly wondering "am I in God's will" or "am I saved", etc. That will drive a person nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted March 1, 2008 Super Moderator Share Posted March 1, 2008 If we lived in a totally random universe, with no purpose, guiding force, or hocus pocus feel good woo-woo, it would appear exactly as it does now. Anyone who has dribbled his drink, spilled food, backed over his kid's bike, or misplaced his glasses knows that there are accidents. To assign meaning to every innocuous act and coincidence is a feel good philosophy with no evidence to indicate, much less prove, it's true. In other words, it is like any religion. If it makes you feel better that so-and-so died for a good reason rather than just being another accident statistic, you'll have to take that idea on faith and faith alone because there is no basis for it in observable fact or logic. - Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Acorn Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 If we lived in a totally random universe, with no purpose, guiding force, or hocus pocus feel good woo-woo, it would appear exactly as it does now. Anyone who has dribbled his drink, spilled food, backed over his kid's bike, or misplaced his glasses knows that there are accidents. To assign meaning to every innocuous act and coincidence is a feel good philosophy with no evidence to indicate, much less prove, it's true. In other words, it is like any religion. If it makes you feel better that so-and-so died for a good reason rather than just being another accident statistic, you'll have to take that idea on faith and faith alone because there is no basis for it in observable fact or logic. - Chris My insanity kickin in This should be fun!!!!!!!!!! Good topic starter Chris. You all give me a bit, I be back not now, ya hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 Freewill spiritually. Freewill as to God let man have freewill. Man started using their freewill, intially toward the rebellion of God, or distance of one from God. So. Man is freewilled from God. The rest is history. Man spiritually born of freewill, yet regulated by history and other humans. First of all, what is "frewill spiritually"? What's the difference between "spirit" and "soul" and "consciousness" and "awareness" etc? Is our "free will" guided by our spirit? Maybe quantum events are spiritual events? You see, how can accidents be predetermined, and yet free will to be nondeterministic? In that. This spiral of freewill evolved into something unimaginable to the human eye, kinda like the writting, programming of a computer to a person unapt to understand computer language. Though, anyone, given the time and effort of dedication toward computer dilect can eventually start to at least comprehend the basics, yet maybe not understand the entire process. Spiritually, I came to this thought when Christ said to Pilate that he could not have authority over Him unless it had been given from above. At first I was a little lost in this, but after time I began to wonder if that was a deeper comment than intially read. And now, I think it was. I'm not sure what you're getting at... Are you talking about the emergence theory of intelligence and consciousness? Well, we're heading (if we don't destroy our planet first), most likely, towards the technological singularity and our collective will become united in one mind... The beauty of the beast... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 Freewill spiritually. Freewill as to God let man have freewill. Man started using their freewill, intially toward the rebellion of God, or distance of one from God. So. Man is freewilled from God. The rest is history. Man spiritually born of freewill, yet regulated by history and other humans. Rebellion... which rebellion? When did this happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 Rebellion... which rebellion? When did this happen? Damn dude! You missed the greatest party of all!!! The big rebellion of ages. Free beer and eternal BBQ. We don't know if the dogs go to Heaven, but for sure the pigs, chickens and dead cows go to Hell, and all the micro-brewers too. Deviled eggs, standard issue on the menu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skiergirl24 Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 That was a major influence in my deconversion. I read Harold Kushner's book "When Bad Things HAppen to Good PEople." In his book Kushner talksa bout how God could be omnipotent or all good but not both (given the state of the world.) Essentially, Kushner's God is imperfect. The first entry under GOD in Websters Dictionary states : "A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions." Of course there are other God constructs. The main problem I had with Kushner's logic was that I failed to see how God could create the universe, cellular mitosis, laws of physics etc. but NOT be able to create the human body in such a way that it would easily become overrun with cancerous cells. More than half a million Americans die from cancer each year. God must have made a major error in his chemical formula for the human body! So, he was able to create the moon, the stars, the laws of thermodynamics, recessive genes etc. but can't cure cancer? Doesn't add up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Skier, What's even more strange about cancer and humans, is that there are animals that don't get cancer. So God obviously had the power and knowledge to do it, but decided to award some animals long lives without sickness, while humans and other animals had to suffer it. God got his favorites, and we ain't it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShackledNoMore Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 DevaLight, was this the column you were looking for: http://www.tmsfeatures.com/tmsfeatures/sub....jsp?catid=1709 (Sorry for being so late on noticing this thread, I'm afraid I'm WAAAAAAAAAAY behind on my ex-c!) Anyhoo, I don't see where this was an obstacle to faith, per se, at least for me. In my fundy mind, I would have figured that the instant another xian or I got randomly hit by a bus we'd materialize in heaven. Accidental death? No sweat in the grand scheme of things. On the other hand, there are some things that we would expect to observe that would be at least consistent with our faith, if the account of the xian god were true, even if they didn't prove anything. I would expect faith to be consistent with geology, cosmology, biology, etc., just like I'd expect to hear French spoken in Quebec if we studied Canada in class and I considered my teacher a credible source. If things like that didn't bear out, I'd start questioning my teacher's (or my church's) credibility. Here's where my take on the topic comes in, and where I can agree with some of the comments that have been made: the bible DOES make claims about the efficacy of prayer. If the bible/xian myth were true, then one would expect to see that borne out, correct? Now from that angle, it IS an obstacle to faith! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted March 4, 2008 Author Share Posted March 4, 2008 Thanks for providing that link, Shackled. To me, it is just another excuse for Biblegod. This one is he can't intervene because he isn't powerful enough. Not so much that he won't, but that he can't. I also read Kushner's book and it is the same excuse. This is an imperfect God. He isn't strong enough. This is not the one depicted in the Bible. In the Bible God intervenes all the time for "his people." The excuse doesn't wash. In my local area there was a terrible restaurant shooting where a man was killed simply because he had gone back to the restaurant to get his 4 year old son a different toy to go with his meal. Goes back into the reastaurant and is shot dead on the spot. Several others shot also. Just random shooting where the killer then turned the gun on himself. How do you explain this to the child? Yet God loves us. Perhaps all this could be more explainable if Christianity had a positive view of death, but that isn't the case either. It is part of the "curse", something unnatural. Christians seem to be just as afraid of death as the rest of us, possibly more so. There are too many contradictions in Christianity to make sense out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Even if one accepts the possibility that God can't save us all because he isn't powerful enough, I don't see why such a God deserves worship. If God isn't powerful enough to hold up his end of the bargain, then God is just as immoral and weak as we mere mortals are and I fail to see how he's done anything to deserve special treatment if that is the case. It's like someone who claims to be your best friend and says that they'll always be there for you, but the moment you need their help for something, they say they can't help because they're too busy, but it's always the same excuse every time, and then they turn around and will hang out with you if you want to go shopping or something they want to do. Kind of like that story about the little red hen who wants to make bread and asks her friends to help her, but nobody can because they can't for some other reason, so she just makes the bread herself, but then when she finishes making it, all her friends suddenly want her to give them a piece of it even though they didn't do anything to help. To me God is exactly like the friends of that little red hen. If even children can figure out from a picture book that such behavior is immoral, I don't see why God suddenly deserves special treatment for doing the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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