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I don't think worship is for God's sake. I believe that He desires it for us because it gets our focus off ourselves and it is not healthy for people to be the ones who we look up to.

 

John

That's a new and interesting twist. Does this make mediations of other kinds also supported by God, or prayer to other Deities in the same fashion?

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So, going by this logic, we should not look up to Jesus since he was a human, and since Jesus was also God, we must also not look up to God since that means God was a human, too? Congratulations, you just defeated your own argument, Kratos!

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I don't think worship is for God's sake. I believe that He desires it for us because it gets our focus off ourselves and it is not healthy for people to be the ones who we look up to.

 

John

 

Maybe. But for that matter we could guess about any other attribute of god. If we are talking about the Christian god of the bible though, I think that idea clashes with the biblical representations.

 

Its a nice idea though. In practical terms I would liken it to idealizing a virtue or idea rather than the person who spoke it or the book that contained it.

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It's all a bit strange how I'm expected to just throw the Bible in the trashcan because you don't like it, and that it is some major big deal that I use it in debate.

 

Well, I'll be gone for a couple of days (I know, I know, try not to applaud too loud hehe). I will say that you have challenged my thinking, and that it has led me to think on these things. I appreciate that. Have a good weekend everyone.

Hi Walkthehalk, I wouldn't expect you to throw out the Bible. On the contrary. I would expect you to be so immersed in it, that you don't need to quote it. I would expect it to be so much a part of your person that you could speak to us as a human being who has it part of their life, and that the words you choose, and the words you hear from others are such that you have something to say from who you've become from embracing this as a philosophy for living.

 

You should try to undertand that so many of us here who were part of that system of religion, were left empty at the end of the day. We left, not because we didn't care for the ideals that we thought were espoused in the system, but that the hope we saw was in fact our own, of something that was in us all along and not in "scripture". This may sound a tad obtuse, but trust me, there's something there if you have an inclination to hear. Spend some time here before you return to discussion with us. I look forward to your thoughts at that time. Link starting at this post and following: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=325431

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I don't think worship is for God's sake. I believe that He desires it for us because it gets our focus off ourselves and it is not healthy for people to be the ones who we look up to.

 

John

That's a new and interesting twist. Does this make mediations of other kinds also supported by God, or prayer to other Deities in the same fashion?

 

The Bible teaches that we must be born again through Jesus to be able to worship in the spirit. God is a Spirit and seeks such worshippers. However, since embracing Universal Reconciliation of All to God, I am not so sure that these other methods are not helpful for at least getting people in other cultures on a spiritual path and gets them outside themselves.

 

I remember years ago attending a 12 step alcohol recovery program. These programs have a remarkable record of helping people get sober and stay that way. One step says that you must acknowledge that there is something greater than yourself that can help you when you are powerless over alcohol. I have heard people call it their "higher power" or even an inanimate object. Yet, it helps them get over themselves a little and seems to bring results. Results are hard to argue with even if these are just first steps to get over too much self consciouness and self pity and self regret.

 

It is very liberating to admit that God is bigger than the Christian box I was taught that He had to stay in.

 

John

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The Bible teaches that we must be born again through Jesus to be able to worship in the spirit.

 

It is very liberating to admit that God is bigger than the Christian box I was taught that He had to stay in.

 

Considering the latter, might the former ever be open to examination? :wicked:

 

Just kidding...sort of.

 

Quick question, you talk about looking outside yourself for something. A good thing by most people's estimation .Does that something have to be supernatural or outside this existence to qualify?

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For me, that One outside myself is God and He is a Spirit. He is certainly a part of this world so not sure if supernatural is the right word and He certainly is a part of this existence at least for me. But, like I said, I have seen others be helped by turning over their life to something more physical. Like all of us, I really am only sure about what is real to me.

 

John

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For me, that One outside myself is God and He is a Spirit. He is certainly a part of this world so not sure if supernatural is the right word and He certainly is a part of this existence at least for me. But, like I said, I have seen others be helped by turning over their life to something more physical. Like all of us, I really am only sure about what is real to me.

 

John

 

Fair enough, I wasn't sure what the best wording was.

 

This may be worth a thread if you're game. I'm not sure if its worth discussing or anything, but I wouldn't be opposed to going a bit further down this line of thought.

 

But the hell thread is hardly the place :HaHa:

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I remember years ago attending a 12 step alcohol recovery program. These programs have a remarkable record of helping people get sober and stay that way. One step says that you must acknowledge that there is something greater than yourself that can help you when you are powerless over alcohol. I have heard people call it their "higher power" or even an inanimate object. Yet, it helps them get over themselves a little and seems to bring results.

I have more to add later, and will. But for now.. these are first steps. To look to something higher than yourself is the first steps. The ultimate end is that we find "the Kingdom of God" is inside you. At that point you become "God". Isn't that really what the metaphor of the Bride is? Becoming one with God? And isn't become one with God, to have the divine essence in yourself and be part of you? More to explain on this later...

 

(of course I'm speaking using the non-literal license of the myth to express my human ideals - which isn't that what it all is?)

 

 

Results are hard to argue with even if these are just first steps to get over too much self consciouness and self pity and self regret.

Indeed John. Which was my point of the debate, "What does Christianity offer humanity that no other religion or philosophy can't". You always somehow magically assume other religions aren't in the same fellowship of spirit as Christians are in their lives. Yet I see zero support for that anywhere. Even Kat22 conceded that point. It's purely theoretical on your part, and you cannot, IMO, look around you and make anything you see fit that "theology". "God" is bigger than your theology. In fact, God isn't even "God" per se. :grin:

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The Bible teaches that we must be born again through Jesus to be able to worship in the spirit. God is a Spirit and seeks such worshippers. However, since embracing Universal Reconciliation of All to God, I am not so sure that these other methods are not helpful for at least getting people in other cultures on a spiritual path and gets them outside themselves.

I see. (I wonder how this works in conjunction with the "You were never a True Christian™" argument?)

 

I remember years ago attending a 12 step alcohol recovery program. These programs have a remarkable record of helping people get sober and stay that way. One step says that you must acknowledge that there is something greater than yourself that can help you when you are powerless over alcohol. I have heard people call it their "higher power" or even an inanimate object. Yet, it helps them get over themselves a little and seems to bring results. Results are hard to argue with even if these are just first steps to get over too much self consciouness and self pity and self regret.

So other gods works too then. How certain are you that some other religious experience might be stronger and help more than Christian experience? Have you had any religious or transcendental experience outside your favorite religion?

 

It is very liberating to admit that God is bigger than the Christian box I was taught that He had to stay in.

That's good. If there is a God, I don't think there is a Holy Heavenly Patent and Registration Bureau that controls which religion is the "real" one.

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Wait, I'm confused, I thought Kratos said he was a "bible believer" Christian, but now he's saying God is more than outside the Christian box. But how can someone be both a "bible believer" Christian and believe God is bigger than the "Christian box" when the bible commands to have no other Gods than Yahweh? Isn't that clearly cherry picking which scriptures to follow and ignoring anything that's inconvenient, and isn't this dishonest to say you're a "bible believer" Christian but clearly don't obey everything in the bible?

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Wait, I'm confused, I thought Kratos said he was a "bible believer" Christian, but now he's saying God is more than outside the Christian box. But how can someone be both a "bible believer" Christian and believe God is bigger than the "Christian box" when the bible commands to have no other Gods than Yahweh? Isn't that clearly cherry picking which scriptures to follow and ignoring anything that's inconvenient, and isn't this dishonest to say you're a "bible believer" Christian but clearly don't obey everything in the bible?

 

Fair question Neon, I'm curious as well. A work in progress perhaps?

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I don't know any Christians who believe that the Bible contains all of the knowledge that God has or all that can be known of God. It is a book that helps those who can receive it to transition from Adam to Christ. That is all. Thus, knowing that the Christian box is not all there is of God is no surprise or contradiction. I do not believe that there is any other God, but God uses many ways to draw all men to Him. Remember Paul on Mars hill proclaiming that the unknown God the Greeks worshipped was now revealed through Jesus Christ.

 

Unlike AM, I do not think there are any doors to being one with God except through Jesus Christ, but I do believe that God provides many "first steps' to get people started down the road to spirituality. Accepting a "higher power" than yourself in a 12 step program is one such first step and many come to know their higher power as God through Jesus Christ.

 

The only thing that changed in my understanding after coming to the knowledge of the Ultimate Reconciliation of All is that God has no refuse heap for the rejects and has a plan to bring all together in Christ. This will not all happen in this current age which is all that the Bible deals with. There have been ages past and there are ages to come and the work of God through Christ continues. It reminds me a little of the opening paragraph in Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" fantasy novels which has its roots in Buddhism.

 

"The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose.... The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of time.

But it was a beginning."

 

John

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I don't know any Christians who believe that the Bible contains all of the knowledge that God has or all that can be known of God. It is a book that helps those who can receive it to transition from Adam to Christ. That is all. Thus, knowing that the Christian box is not all there is of God is no surprise or contradiction. I do not believe that there is any other God, but God uses many ways to draw all men to Him.
Men, not women? So, what do you do when you deal with religions that are in clear conflicts with each other, like Christianity and Islam both command their followers to kill people from their opposing beliefs? How can they both be right only not really if they both command to kill each other? Wouldn't that be counter-productive? Again, aren't you just cherry picking because other religions have verses that say that their opposing religions like Christianity are false yet Christianity says the other Gods are all false yet you're saying it's ok to follow the false Gods because they aren't false even though they all claim each other to be false? *is completely lost*

 

And if it's ok to follow other false Gods because there is no false God, and all those "false" Gods are just different interpretations of the "true" God, then why would the bible warn against listening to false preachers? Wouldn't that make such a warning be redundant? If there is no "false" preachers but they're merely interpreting the truth differently, then how do you define what a "false" preacher is? Also, since you claim to be a "bible believer" Christian yet think that other gods and religions are different versions of the same truth about God or whatever, then would a religion that teaches that it's ok to be gay or that women don't have to obey men be just as true as your religion that claims that it isn't? Thus, contradicting your claim that God says homosexuality is wrong and that women must be submissive and your claims that this is the best way for everyone to live because not all other religions think that those things are wrong because these other religions are also right only not really? In other words, are you basically saying it's ok to believe whatever you want as long as you believe in God, only not really since you clearly believe somethings are wrong to believe in even with a belief in God, yet it's not ok to believe whatever you want if you don't believe in God, even though you really do believe somethings are wrong to believe in?

 

 

Remember Paul on Mars hill proclaiming that the unknown God the Greeks worshipped was now revealed through Jesus Christ.
Yet aren't you contradicting Paul by saying that Jesus is also found in known Gods that existed before he preached the unknown God? And if God is "bigger than the Christian box" and that Jesus' will was being revealed through other Gods, then what was the point of Jesus when they already had other gods before Christianity since according to you, they're all teaching the same truth only not really anyway? Doesn't that just make Jesus' existence redundant?
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It is a book that helps those who can receive it to transition from Adam to Christ. That is all.

 

Can they do it without the book?

 

Remember Paul on Mars hill proclaiming that the unknown God the Greeks worshipped was now revealed through Jesus Christ.

Yeah, that's what Paul said. What makes him right that he could presume to identify the unknown god?

 

Unlike AM, I do not think there are any doors to being one with God except through Jesus Christ, but I do believe that God provides many "first steps' to get people started down the road to spirituality.

 

But if religion is all "made up" as you have stated in earlier posts, how is it that there is now only one door, Christ?

 

The only thing that changed in my understanding after coming to the knowledge of the Ultimate Reconciliation of All is that God has no refuse heap for the rejects and has a plan to bring all together in Christ.

 

This will never happen. Prove to us that it is anything other than sheer fantasy.

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Unlike AM, I do not think there are any doors to being one with God except through Jesus Christ, but I do believe that God provides many "first steps' to get people started down the road to spirituality. Accepting a "higher power" than yourself in a 12 step program is one such first step and many come to know their higher power as God through Jesus Christ.

 

I don't get this Kratos, why Christ? What part does he play in all this, what makes him necessary and why do you think so?

 

That seems a random sticking point when taken in context of your ideas of an inevitable path to God.

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It reminds me a little of the opening paragraph in Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" fantasy novels which has its roots in Buddhism.

 

"The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose.... The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of time.

But it was a beginning."

 

John

 

Thanks for this quote John, I have stood holding those books in the book store wondering if I would like them as I had never read any of his books but I love fantasy very much. Now I know I would so will keep an eye out for them at the discount book store.

 

sojourner

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lol 'uppity', what does that mean in your neck of the woods Grandpa?

 

so I be sure and get ya, thought to ask, in mine it would mean I was getting nervous, but surely Im missing your meaning?

 

sojourner

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lol 'uppity', what does that mean in your neck of the woods Grandpa?

 

so I be sure and get ya, thought to ask, in mine it would mean I was getting nervous, but surely Im missing your meaning?

 

sojourner

 

Assertive, out of line, speaking out of ones place, like "uppity wench", or " one of my plantation slaves got uppity" (In an aristocratic British accent). Usual carries connotations like that.

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Now I know I would so will keep an eye out for them at the discount book store.

Gracious Sojourner, I have to warn you that Jorden died before he could complete the Wheel of Time series. So we fans are all left hanging I'm afraid.

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I don't get this Kratos, why Christ? What part does he play in all this, what makes him necessary and why do you think so?

 

That seems a random sticking point when taken in context of your ideas of an inevitable path to God.

Thank you for posting this, Doctor. You explained what I was trying to say better than I could. I don't get this either, that God is merely providing other religions with a "first step" yet for some reason Jesus is more than a "first step", as if it's impossible for the opposite to happen and for Jesus to be a "first step" to other religions and ways of life, or making the assumption that there is even something to make a "first step" towards. And he claims God is providing other religions with many "first steps", but for some reason stops short of the possibility that the bible's teachings regarding homosexuality and women not being submissive are not out-dated "first steps" to a later modern realization that there is nothing wrong with either outside of that out-dated "first step" just because Kratos says so.
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For me, that One outside myself is God and He is a Spirit. He is certainly a part of this world so not sure if supernatural is the right word and He certainly is a part of this existence at least for me. But, like I said, I have seen others be helped by turning over their life to something more physical. Like all of us, I really am only sure about what is real to me.

 

John

John I have felt the enduring mystery. I just no longer feel compelled to personify it and call it God.

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