Ouroboros Posted July 8, 2005 Share Posted July 8, 2005 It was sure a pleasure to read. My job is boring and I can read pretty fast....so all I see is that evolution is a given. The idea that god interferes directly with us and our world on a regular and constant basis seems a very minute possibility. Even small interference could have unwanted long term effects on the whole damn project. Reminds me of how careful Star Trek crews had to be when travelling back in time. Invictus sure at hell hasn't bothered to read it. I haven't seen his ass all day. Invisiblus goes in and out of coma, he writes quite a lot when he's out of it (or maybe when he's still in it?). There was one thing that got me thinking a bit more... they mentioned why Christians don't follow the other 600+ laws in the law, but only handpick a few, like work 6 days, rest one, don't kill etc. Some day I will try to get a list of all of the laws in a compact format, and each time a dementor pops his head up, I will throw that at him and ask if he follows the law that God demanded he should... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Invisiblus goes in and out of coma, he writes quite a lot when he's out of it (or maybe when he's still in it?). There was one thing that got me thinking a bit more... they mentioned why Christians don't follow the other 600+ laws in the law, but only handpick a few, like work 6 days, rest one, don't kill etc. Some day I will try to get a list of all of the laws in a compact format, and each time a dementor pops his head up, I will throw that at him and ask if he follows the law that God demanded he should... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm still trying to work out why it is that even though Jesus was the start of the new convenant, and therefore the old rules no longer apply, that we STILL have to obey the 10 commandments... To quote a Christian who was asked that question... Ah well, you see... The 10 commandments are God's law, so are applicable in both the old and new covenants, whereas the rest of the laws are God's laws and are only applicable to those who lived before Jesus... No, they didn't notice what they'd said... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 I'm still trying to work out why it is that even though Jesus was the start of the new convenant, and therefore the old rules no longer apply, that we STILL have to obey the 10 commandments... To quote a Christian who was asked that question... No, they didn't notice what they'd said... Actually this issue bugged me even as a Christian. I couldn't really find a good argument why certain laws were supposed to be obeyed while others were not. The only real good answer was that ALL laws in the OT was made undone, and the only law to follow was "love your neighbor". And actually I rarely see any Christians follow that single, most important, law that Jesus gave... It's like reading the instruction book to a car, and it says "here's the break pedal, and here's the gas pedal". And people will sit in the car and try to pedal the car like a bicycle gas/break/gas/break/gas/break... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Neil Posted July 9, 2005 Author Share Posted July 9, 2005 Invictus sure at hell hasn't bothered to read it. I haven't seen his ass all day.Even if he was here, he wouldn't read it. He still has yet to commit any time to the original resource I gave him, which was the 29 + Evidences For Macroevolution reference I provided. It's hard to pick a favorite part of Things Creationists Hate. The flood section is hilarious, of course. I've mined all sorts of arguments from there, such as varves, craters, flat-earthers, goosebumps, and all sorts of things that make creationists uncomfortable. I like the resolve it facetiously gives for goosebumps, in which Adam and Eve have fur! HAHHAHAHAHAHA!!!! But seriously though, there are a lot of slam-dunk arguments to get from that site alone, but my favorite has got to be the point about the Chixilub impact. To date, I have never had a creationist even attempt an explanation of that phenomenon. They always run away with their tails between their legs, and then they come back a few weeks later, hoping that I'd forgotten about it. Jesus Freak did it. Gerbil did it. Jason Gastrich did it when I asked him about it over on Tribulation Forces. There isn't a Christian alive who wants to defend his faith against Chixilub. And they avoid it because they know that it's proof positive that the Bible is not a history book, because the Bible records no such event. But the point is that it's such a dramatic event that the only reasonable explanation for the Bible's omission of it would be that the Bible is not a reliable record of history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 But seriously though, there are a lot of slam-dunk arguments to get from that site alone, but my favorite has got to be the point about the Chixilub impact. To date, I have never had a creationist even attempt an explanation of that phenomenon. They always run away with their tails between their legs, and then they come back a few weeks later, hoping that I'd forgotten about it. Jesus Freak did it. Gerbil did it. Jason Gastrich did it when I asked him about it over on Tribulation Forces. There isn't a Christian alive who wants to defend his faith against Chixilub. And they avoid it because they know that it's proof positive that the Bible is not a history book, because the Bible records no such event. But the point is that it's such a dramatic event that the only reasonable explanation for the Bible's omission of it would be that the Bible is not a reliable record of history. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Mr. Neil... I have been reading these posts... enjoying them... having no intention to remark. This happen to catch my eye. I hate to think of what I am getting into now. Actually, I have seen Chixilub in the Bible. Of course, they didn't have the same nomenclature identifying this ateroid that distroyed so much. It has long been theorized that between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 something devastating happened. The wording could easily be interpreted that the earth "became" void and without form. Many suggest that is when the morningstar fell and laid low the many nations, and the earth became void and without form and darkness covered the face of the earth. It is also referred to as the "dawn of man". It is said that there is material that came on this asteroid, Chixlub, that makes the DNA makeup for man possible. Without it, man could not exist. It also left irridium that made it possible to communicate via the heavens... I believe. Coincidence? I guess it depends on what side of the fence you decide to stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 But seriously though, there are a lot of slam-dunk arguments to get from that site alone, but my favorite has got to be the point about the Chixilub impact. To date, I have never had a creationist even attempt an explanation of that phenomenon. They always run away with their tails between their legs, and then they come back a few weeks later, hoping that I'd forgotten about it. Jesus Freak did it. Gerbil did it. Jason Gastrich did it when I asked him about it over on Tribulation Forces. There isn't a Christian alive who wants to defend his faith against Chixilub. And they avoid it because they know that it's proof positive that the Bible is not a history book, because the Bible records no such event. But the point is that it's such a dramatic event that the only reasonable explanation for the Bible's omission of it would be that the Bible is not a reliable record of history. I didn't see the chixilub? Was it at the site: http://members.aol.com/darrwin/things.htm ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Neil Posted July 9, 2005 Author Share Posted July 9, 2005 It's under "Craters", Han. The following link will take you right to it... http://members.aol.com/darrwin/things.htm#craters Actually, I have seen Chixilub in the Bible. Of course, they didn't have the same nomenclature identifying this ateroid that distroyed so much. It has long been theorized that between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 something devastating happened. The wording could easily be interpreted that the earth "became" void and without form. Many suggest that is when the morningstar fell and laid low the many nations, and the earth became void and without form and darkness covered the face of the earth. It is also referred to as the "dawn of man". It is said that there is material that came on this asteroid, Chixlub, that makes the DNA makeup for man possible. Without it, man could not exist. It also left irridium that made it possible to communicate via the heavens... I believe. Coincidence? I guess it depends on what side of the fence you decide to stand. Well, that doesn't really work, because the impact is more than just an a huge filled-in crater. It's a very specified event that is linked to very specific evidence which surrounds the crater itself. For example, there are fossilized trees blown over and stacked on top of each other. There are little glass droplets called tektites that are literally drops of molten rock that rained from the sky and solidified before hitting the ground, and they're all over the gulf. And all of these things are locked into the same time period as the impact. So it's not a matter of the impact being part of the creation event, because it clearly had an impact on pre-existing life. And the most important thing about the impact is the K-T boundary itself and where it appears in geology. The K-T boundary is inconveniently specified no matter where it's observed in the world, and the relation to the fossils are the same no matter where you go. Modern mammals are above the K-T; dinosaurs are below. Here's a neat little article that talks about the impact and briefly mentions the tektites... http://dsaing.uqac.uquebec.ca/~mhiggins/MIAC/chicxulub.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Got it! It's funny. My home town in Sweden is located in a huge crater (that's what scientists believe anyway). The forests, cities and the farming land are surrounded by a fairly circular mountain. And the land is pretty flat within that circle. I will try to find out how big it was. At least it's know to have been "created" long time before stoneage, because we have archeological sites there from that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 It's under "Craters", Han. The following link will take you right to it... http://members.aol.com/darrwin/things.htm#craters Well, that doesn't really work, because the impact is more than just an a huge filled-in crater. It's a very specified event that is linked to very specific evidence which surrounds the crater itself. For example, there are fossilized trees blown over and stacked on top of each other. There are little glass droplets called tektites that are literally drops of molten rock that rained from the sky and solidified before hitting the ground, and they're all over the gulf. And all of these things are locked into the same time period as the impact. So it's not a matter of the impact being part of the creation event, because it clearly had an impact on pre-existing life. And the most important thing about the impact is the K-T boundary itself and where it appears in geology. The K-T boundary is inconveniently specified no matter where it's observed in the world, and the relation to the fossils are the same no matter where you go. Modern mammals are above the K-T; dinosaurs are below. Here's a neat little article that talks about the impact and briefly mentions the tektites... http://dsaing.uqac.uquebec.ca/~mhiggins/MIAC/chicxulub.htm <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Mr. Neil, what is the K-T? The site you referred basically was validating that the photo was representative of the Chixilub event. I know it had an impact on creation... and it basically wiped out much of it.... all dinosaurs and I'm sure much more. I would be interested to know how it did effect evolution. Other sites I've read claim that there was accompanying material that made DNA for man possible, and without it man would not have existed. The layer of irridium is important too... is that the tektites? Doesn't that allow us to use cell phones or something satellite oriented? An association was connected there also. I believe that event occurred about 650 million years ago, as I looked to validate that in the article you provided, yet did not notice it. The impact seems to have made the earth appear void and without form... all the trees blew over, clouds of darkness covered the earth, then the dawn of man. (I'm currently using a temporary computer system that does not allow me to do things in the manner I am accustomed. Not good.) Further, do you know anything about the supposed asteroid impact that collided with earth that combined with earth, deflected off and produced our moon? I know the theory exists, maybe disproven by now? As far as know, there is no name for that event, is there... so that I can research it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Neil Posted July 9, 2005 Author Share Posted July 9, 2005 Mr. Neil, what is the K-T?It's iridium layer left by the impact worldwide, basically. Since iridium is rare on Earth, and since there's this strange layer that encompasses the planet, this is indicative that the K-T boundary is the direct result of a catastrophic event, of which there is a known crater. The site you referred basically was validating that the photo was representative of the Chixilub event. I know it had an impact on creation... and it basically wiped out much of it.... all dinosaurs and I'm sure much more. I would be interested to know how it did effect evolution. Other sites I've read claim that there was accompanying material that made DNA for man possible, and without it man would not have existed.That's not exactly true. The impact didn't carry any material which aided the evolution of man. It's hard to say that the impact really did anything that a few more million years worth of environmental change would have done anyway, namely wiping out the dinosaurs, which were already on the brink of extinction. However, the indication is that the impact was enough to push the dinosaurs over the edge, wiping most of them out. ...and when I mean that most were wiped out, I'm counting birds as dinosaurs. What the impact basically wiped out all of the major competition for the mammals, but it didn't have any direct influence on how the mammals would evolve. The layer of irridium is important too... is that the tektites? Doesn't that allow us to use cell phones or something satellite oriented?WHAT!? The tektites are merely molten droplets from the impact that turned to glass as they rained down from the sky. An association was connected there also. I believe that event occurred about 650 million years ago, as I looked to validate that in the article you provided, yet did not notice it. The impact seems to have made the earth appear void and without form... all the trees blew over, clouds of darkness covered the earth, then the dawn of man. (I'm currently using a temporary computer system that does not allow me to do things in the manner I am accustomed. Not good.)Again, not quite. The dawn of man comes much, much later in the fossil record. It's been 65 million years since the impact, and mankind has barely been here a fraction of that time. There is a golden age of mammalian evolution that follows the end of the dinosaurs, and you don't see man appear at least for the next 60 million years. Further, do you know anything about the supposed asteroid impact that collided with earth that combined with earth, deflected off and produced our moon? I know the theory exists, maybe disproven by now? As far as know, there is no name for that event, is there... so that I can research it?Very little. Actually, I don't know if there is any direct evidence (other than the existence of the moon itself) that an object collided with Earth to produce the moon. What scientists have done is to create a simulation which shows how it could have happened. The most likely scenario that they've come up with is a double impact, in which an object from space barely nicked the planet and then got pulled by the planet to smack it again, and based on this simulation, this is how they think the moon formed. Whether or not that's been discredited, I don't know. You may have to ask someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 It's hard to say that the impact really did anything that a few more million years worth of environmental change would have done anyway, namely wiping out the dinosaurs, which were already on the brink of extinction. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Neil, thanks for correcting my memory and/or knowledge. How do you and HanSolo memorize all this! Amazing... living, breathing encyclopedias! I was interested in this many years ago and did not continued my curiosity of it till now... with your post. Researching it on the internet by yahoo, google, and alta vista search engines gave unsatifactory links to what I want to research. Is there another subject besides Chixilub that can offer more material? Perhaps another search engine you can recommend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Neil Posted July 9, 2005 Author Share Posted July 9, 2005 Well, most of my knowledge about Chicxulub is from watching the Science Channel. I don't know of many online articles about the impact, although I might suggest spelling it correctly. It's an easy word to misspell, and that can limit searches. It's Chicxulub. And I'm not knocking you. I misspell it all the time, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Neil, thanks for correcting my memory and/or knowledge. How do you and HanSolo memorize all this! Amazing... living, breathing encyclopedias! I was interested in this many years ago and did not continued my curiosity of it till now... with your post. Researching it on the internet by yahoo, google, and alta vista search engines gave unsatifactory links to what I want to research. Is there another subject besides Chixilub that can offer more material? Perhaps another search engine you can recommend? Memorizing! Hah! Nah! What I do is that I remember concepts and ideas rather than specific terms or details. Then when I need the details I usually kind of know where to look to freshen up on the specifics. It's a matter of letting the fingers do the searching, the eyes do the input, and the mind do the reasoning... For instance driving in a city, I'm not good in remember names of a street or place, but I can driver there from my spatial memory. I'm sure MrNeil and MrSpooky et.al. have much better memory of details than me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Helmet Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 The layer of irridium is important too... is that the tektites? Doesn't that allow us to use cell phones or something satellite oriented? You must be referring to a constellation of communication satellites called Iridium, it has nothing to do with the element. Further, do you know anything about the supposed asteroid impact that collided with earth that combined with earth, deflected off and produced our moon? I know the theory exists, maybe disproven by now? As far as know, there is no name for that event, is there... so that I can research it? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> As mr. neil pointed out we have been able to simulate the creation of the moon by having an protoplanetary object the size of mars hitting the earth at a obtus angle. The impact would have sent a big part of the mantle in orbit, and destroyed the protoplanet. The cloud of debris not ejected into interplanetary space would have accreted into the Moon. The moon is almost devoid of heavy metal compared to earth so this impact should have had to occur shortly after the formation of proto earth so metals would have sinked to the core leaving the mantle without much of them. Also the Appollo missions found proportions of an oxygene isotope quite common in earth's mantle to be the same on the moon, pointing to some relation between the two. For more info google about the Giant Impact theory, the simulation was done by Robin Canup and Erik Asphaug. Up to now the theory hasn't been disproven or totally proven but observations seem to point out that the theory is generally correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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