Is It Possible? An Unaccidental Life

[Ouroboros]

Did He ever say we wouldnt do bad? What I dont understand, I dont consider stupid. Just not understand fully.

The question wasn't about if he could do bad or not. You're missing my point. But it's not that important anyway.

 

Maybe I should take it from this angle instead. Can God change his mind about something?

 

Nu 23:19

God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

 

1Sa 15:29

He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind."

 

If God can't change his mind, then how come he changed his mind regarding creating man?

[Antlerman]

Honestly. I got four hard backs. NIV, KJV, NKJV, Message.; and software. I have read and compared all to each other, to make sense of different things. But the single most thing that helped me was realizing that the Ot was a different world than the gospels, the Gospels were a different world than the Acts to Revelation. Alot of Acts-revelation is taken way to serious in the church. Each letter points toward different problems in those churches. Though, I do look at Paul logic, I take with grain of salt and just focus on the Gospels.

You really should dig into how and when the Bible was written. It puts things into a new perspective. You are familiar with which Gospel was written first, and why they call them the synoptic Gospels, yes? What the communities were, what the traditions were, etc. All those things play a part in the flavor the story takes, the personality that's given to the Jesus of their gospels. If there is some truth to the events in them, it's a kernel, a grain that layers of story, traditions, personalities, politics, cultures of the story teller's world got added onto. It certainly isn't anything one can stand on and say it's God's direct communication, but as said before you can hear the aspirations of man in the stories. It's a message of people using the figure of Christ to tell their story. It's really that simple.

 

Again, that doesn't make it "crap". But it certainly removes absolute authority from it, as well it should.

[Ouroboros]

Vitamin C. Explain.

Most animals, all but a handful, produce C-Vitamins internally. The exceptions are some rodents, chimpanzees and humans. And the reason is because of a hereditary genetic defect in that particular gene that produce the proteins. So I'm curious, since half of Jesus' genes were made supernaturally by God, then potentially Jesus didn't have to eat fruit to supply his body with C-Vitamins. Just curious if you "knew" if he did or did not. Don't they say that the Bible got the answer for everything?

[Guest Acorn]

Vitamin C. Explain.

Most animals, all but a handful, produce C-Vitamins internally. The exceptions are some rodents, chimpanzees and humans. And the reason is because of a hereditary genetic defect in that particular gene that produce the proteins. So I'm curious, since half of Jesus' genes were made supernaturally by God, then potentially Jesus didn't have to eat fruit to supply his body with C-Vitamins. Just curious if you "knew" if he did or did not. Don't they say that the Bible got the answer for everything?

 

Cant help it Hans. I would imagine if God impregnated a woman with super dooper holy spirit baby, then He woulda included those neccesary vitamins.

[Guest Acorn]

Honestly. I got four hard backs. NIV, KJV, NKJV, Message.; and software. I have read and compared all to each other, to make sense of different things. But the single most thing that helped me was realizing that the Ot was a different world than the gospels, the Gospels were a different world than the Acts to Revelation. Alot of Acts-revelation is taken way to serious in the church. Each letter points toward different problems in those churches. Though, I do look at Paul logic, I take with grain of salt and just focus on the Gospels.

You really should dig into how and when the Bible was written. It puts things into a new perspective. You are familiar with which Gospel was written first, and why they call them the synoptic Gospels, yes? What the communities were, what the traditions were, etc. All those things play a part in the flavor the story takes, the personality that's given to the Jesus of their gospels. If there is some truth to the events in them, it's a kernel, a grain that layers of story, traditions, personalities, politics, cultures of the story teller's world got added onto. It certainly isn't anything one can stand on and say it's God's direct communication, but as said before you can hear the aspirations of man in the stories. It's a message of people using the figure of Christ to tell their story. It's really that simple.

 

Again, that doesn't make it "crap". But it certainly removes absolute authority from it, as well it should.

 

I have researched quite a bit. I dont withhold the authority of it, just the literalism is diluted.

[Guest Acorn]

Did He ever say we wouldnt do bad? What I dont understand, I dont consider stupid. Just not understand fully.

The question wasn't about if he could do bad or not. You're missing my point. But it's not that important anyway.

 

Maybe I should take it from this angle instead. Can God change his mind about something?

 

Nu 23:19

God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

 

1Sa 15:29

He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind."

 

If God can't change his mind, then how come he changed his mind regarding creating man?

 

Ya know. I think so. Biblically that is. I have to look into it, but I remeber a low key prophet, king, something; that God spoke to and the man repented and God spared his years, and said I will add this many years to your life. I just cant put my finger on that person. I remeber it was right before the exile, I think a King of Israel or Judah.

[Guest Acorn]

Maybe I should take it from this angle instead. Can God change his mind about something?

 

Nu 23:19

God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

 

1Sa 15:29

He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind."

 

If God can't change his mind, then how come he changed his mind regarding creating man?

 

 

Didnt see that part of your post.Samuel and Moses need to roll in their graves, cause if I recall He did, Solomon's Temple as well.

[Neon Genesis]

Did He ever say we wouldnt do bad? What I dont understand, I dont consider stupid. Just not understand fully.

James 1:13

 

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by Godâ€; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

 

No God. No conscience. So. Why those that dont believe in God just go buck wild. I conclude that I think its built inside of us, fear that is. Whether, to God, or jail. Fear of the unknown.

It's this little thing called common sense. Ever notice how when people commit crimes, they're usually not thinking sensibly when they commit them? And if we can do good things because our conscience comes from God, why do some people commit sins anyway? Are you saying God builds that conscience in some people but not in other people? Doesn't the fact that people still commit sins anyway in spite of our supposed God-given fear show that there must be some other reason than a God-given fear that drives people to do good? And since you say that we would have no conscience without God, are you saying that you would commit immoral acts if God didn't exist? Doesn't that say more about you than it does about our supposed "God-given conscience"?

[Ouroboros]

So Acorn, doesn't all this open up your eyes, so you see that the Bible was created by man that wrote about how they saw God, from their perspective, and not from a true, God-like, perspective? So how can you be sure that author A got the "truth" while author B does not? Shouldn't you treat all the books the same way, as human pondering about life, events and unexplainable phenomenon? For instance, how could anyone know the events that went on in Heaven in the book of Job? If Job, the main character, the most righteous of them all, have problems even to understand God's nature, how the heck could anyone - who was it - writing the book of Job and even record the events in the spiritual worlds? Can you tell me that? Do you understand my question here?

 

Let's make it simple:

 

Job: the super righteous man of the world - had issues with understanding even the character of God and what God do or do not do, and why he would do things to him. So Job, the most receptive and the most likely candidate to receive a revelation, didn't have a complete spiritual understanding of what happened to him.

 

Yet, there's a book written by someone (unknown author), the book of Job, that even writes about the verbal communication between God and Satan. Who was this person? Someone even more righteous and more spiritual aware than Job? Then why wasn't he attacked and tested instead?

 

There's an obvious contradiction there, but what it really does (if someone is honest enough to admit it) it points to that this is being a poetic work and not a literal or historical event.

[Guest Acorn]

 

So Acorn, doesn't all this open up your eyes, so you see that the Bible was created by man that wrote about how they saw God, from their perspective, and not from a true, God-like, perspective? So how can you be sure that author A got the "truth" while author B does not? Shouldn't you treat all the books the same way, as human pondering about life, events and unexplainable phenomenon? For instance, how could anyone know the events that went on in Heaven in the book of Job? If Job, the main character, the most righteous of them all, have problems even to understand God's nature, how the heck could anyone - who was it - writing the book of Job and even record the events in the spiritual worlds? Can you tell me that? Do you understand my question here?

 

My point exactly. With the whole Satan, freewill thing. Making sense of something that doesnt really make sense and then backing off of it and pondering on it. It is the oldest book in there. Maybe God wrote it. Hey. He wrote the commandments. Maybe Job wrote it, very possible, as to the detailed thoughts of Jobs action and words. If Job wrote it, I would more lean toward assuming that he added the story to set his mood of things. He was all righteous, God let Satan destroy his family, etc;

 

 

Let's make it simple:

 

Job: the super righteous man of the world - had issues with understanding even the character of God and what God do or do not do, and why he would do things to him. So Job, the most receptive and the most likely candidate to receive a revelation, didn't have a complete spiritual understanding of what happened to him.

 

Yet, there's a book written by someone (unknown author), the book of Job, that even writes about the verbal communication between God and Satan. Who was this person? Someone even more righteous and more spiritual aware than Job? Then why wasn't he attacked and tested instead?

 

There's an obvious contradiction there, but what it really does (if someone is honest enough to admit it) it points to that this is being a poetic work and not a literal or historical event.

 

Yeah. I think Job would be the most likely to have wrote, though that is unknown. If so, I dont think I was a failure of understanding, but a process of understanding in which when the light hit his way again, with good, it all came together as the book of Job. Possible.

[Guest Acorn]

Did He ever say we wouldnt do bad? What I dont understand, I dont consider stupid. Just not understand fully.

James 1:13

 

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by Godâ€; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

 

No God. No conscience. So. Why those that dont believe in God just go buck wild. I conclude that I think its built inside of us, fear that is. Whether, to God, or jail. Fear of the unknown.

It's this little thing called common sense. Ever notice how when people commit crimes, they're usually not thinking sensibly when they commit them? And if we can do good things because our conscience comes from God, why do some people commit sins anyway? Are you saying God builds that conscience in some people but not in other people? Doesn't the fact that people still commit sins anyway in spite of our supposed God-given fear show that there must be some other reason than a God-given fear that drives people to do good? And since you say that we would have no conscience without God, are you saying that you would commit immoral acts if God didn't exist? Doesn't that say more about you than it does about our supposed "God-given conscience"?

 

Well. Thats a whole other topic itself. I was saying how I felt in conjunction of what I thought, responding to a post. I will say though that half the crimes you see on tv, news, etc the people caught are the dumb ones. Alot crimes are commited and gotten away with. So. Crimes can be sensibily committed and gotten away with.

 

If God didnt exist, then there wouldnt be immoral. Sodom and Gommarah, Biblically, would still be, or for that matter Noah land.

[Antlerman]

I have researched quite a bit. I dont withhold the authority of it, just the literalism is diluted.

If it's not literal, aka, "factual", then how can it be authoritative? Again... Whose subjective interpretation is God's Word??

[The-Captain]

If God didnt exist, then there wouldnt be immoral. Sodom and Gommarah, Biblically, would still be, or for that matter Noah land.

 

Why would that be so?

[Grandpa Harley]

I still want to know which rebellion?

 

Rebellion of what?

 

On the originating thread... you stated that man rebelled from god... where... who voted on this?

[Grandpa Harley]

Wow!

 

It just looks to me like you're trying to add a caveat, e.g. free will, where none is justified.

 

Why is it that people can't accept the process of living as just that? Why is it that some have to insert a spiritual element into it?

I don't look at life in that way, a series of accidents, etc. I just live it. That's what I do. If I make good choices, then usually, things will do allright. If I make bad choices, then there is a crock of shit to deal with. Despite my choices, sometimes, there is still shit to deal with. Ergo, life is sometimes a crock of shit, despite my best efforts.

 

Does that bother you?

 

No. Thanks for the comment.

 

And so... Troll boy show his true colours...in the first few posts...too tough to answer, too idle or it was taking you down a rowyou didn't care to hoe? I can see from hear on in it's going to be like Wrestling an oiled Baptist Minister, on a hot day, when caught in a brothel.

[Grandpa Harley]

I'm sure by now that everyone has realized that this OP is troll, first class. Well spoken, literate, but working ever closer to the SOS of every xtian. He's thus far posted numerous times today, all of them a thinly veiled (if at all) apologist view.

And why don't these messengers of gawd provide any informaton. Everything in the profile is unknown. Hey, god guy, do you really exist?

 

Troll? Whats your comment about the topic? Just trolls, right, thats what I thought.

 

It's called a meta comment... sort of a warning to others who may think you have a point, but based on reading this far, (I'm part way down first page at time of writing... it's been a big thread), you're just a shit eating smug apologist... Here for 'fellowship' my entire, English, arse... you're here to ego polish... well as yet, the only point I've wanted addressing you've been deliberately evasive about, and continue to be evasive now... full of sound and fury and signifying nothing... I hope it improves down the line, but the feelin' in me waters says it's downhill from here... onward in to the pig midden!

[Grandpa Harley]

Not much free will in the garden of eden with the talking snake, man was setup by god to fail.

 

They had a choice though.

 

another single clause answer... yet another standard troll tactic. I'm not seeing much meat with the potatoes here, just more noise...

[Grandpa Harley]

What choice? They were ignorant toddlers in a magic garden and god killed them for making their first mistake--he did not warn them about the talking snake. god made the talking snake so why wouldn't someone trust a talking snake that basically said it was ok to eat of the forbidden tree? the kids were placed in the garden to fail. god knew they would fail and gave them no way out. or, god doesn't understand jack shit about his own creation and throws a tantrum everytime he doesn't get his way.

 

Ok. I agree in part Heretic. In part, thinking of also when God said He regreting creating us, and caused the flood, then calmed down and said He would never do that again. In part, as to, I moved on from that thought of insanity, still believed and looked for understanding. Got little, but some. Isaiah, God says who told you to give me these offerings. Weird, huh. Makes you think, or me, that maybe the whole Genesis story was fictional.

 

Then, I say wait. Christ said as to the question of marriage, it was written, He made them male and female. So, its like a big puzzle of words and sayings that need a deciphering code.

 

SO I ask again, who rebelled against whom?

 

As to a comment on the response, it's long on verbiage but really says nothing much.. what do you mean here?

[Grandpa Harley]

If a person is voting at the election and someone is standing next to him with a gun to the voters head. The gun-man demands that the voter picks one specific candidate. The voter have the free will to either disobey and die, or obey and live. Is that gun-man a good person? And does the voter have a free choice to vote for the other candidate?

 

Well. Spiritually, greater is the one who caused the gun man to sin, right?. And no, the man voting had no choice in the manner, in my thoughts; because of the freewilled choice of another man in charge of the gunman

So if God threatens with Hell for not choosing to believe or turn to him, isn't that the same as putting a gun to someone's head and demand they do something? In my thought experiment, the gun-man was God, and the voter is the human.

 

No. God layed out two places Bbilically, based on our choices. No gunman.

 

Why is the threat of eternal damnation any more of a choice than having your brain blown out if you don't comply? Semantic nonsense relying on a book no one here regards as more valid than the Aesop... you'll have to do better than 'The God said it, I believe it' commentary... it's like teaching a wild boar to sing... it achieves nothing and the boar gets irritated and eats you...

[Grandpa Harley]

Ok, now I see. You're not sure what to make of it. If I may make a suggestion? You're seeing it can't be literal, yet you still are trying to make it fit an overall literal belief about it. You need to step way above it and look at it apart from any literal thinking at all. It's no hidden message, it's just people who wrote it with the understandings they had at the time. No magic creation. Doesn't necessarily make it *crap*, anymore than any other work of antiquity is *crap*. What's crap, is literalist thinking.

 

P.S. I don't call mythology fictional. Mythology is symbolic expression, and whether the characters and events were real, is beside the point.

 

Agreed. I still believe in God, and the Bible though. So. I guess, insanity is all thats left.

 

So really, you have no place here, other than to try and cause trouble... Fellowship... my arse...

[Grandpa Harley]

What choice? They were ignorant toddlers in a magic garden and god killed them for making their first mistake--he did not warn them about the talking snake. god made the talking snake so why wouldn't someone trust a talking snake that basically said it was ok to eat of the forbidden tree? the kids were placed in the garden to fail. god knew they would fail and gave them no way out. or, god doesn't understand jack shit about his own creation and throws a tantrum everytime he doesn't get his way.

These were exactly my thoughts just now. God created everything good, so they *beleived* anything from God should be taken at face value. No sin there, in fact it was an act of faith!

 

This whole literal interpretation of the Gensis story is nonsence. Acorn, I thought you said you weren't a literalist? What the story?

 

Hey. Dont lose hope in my thought yet. Maybe God made people. Flat out. Then knew He couldnt be here right beside us because of how he made people. So. Let events happen, and let people write about it, and tryed to straighten the peoples way, with Christ.

 

Oh you arrogant little man... there was never 'hope' for your view, just that you'd keep the shit meter levels low... atm you're saying nothing new, and managing to be a prick about it...

 

and if you're going to post this damned much Get a spelling checker for you browser of choice... Firefox has it built in and there are more IE ones than there are Fundies in Georgia...

[Grandpa Harley]

Well. He might have felt that way since Adam/Eve. Intervined, saw some good. Then it turned bad again, by their choices.

The problem is how he could regret something at all. If he knew beforehand, from eternity, because he was omniscient, that these events would go about, then how can he regret it after it happens? He knew it would already!

 

 

I dont think He did in that context. For that matter, if He regretted it why wouldnt He have just ended it.

 

and so a pretty lie is born to bolster faith in something insane...

[Grandpa Harley]

Hey. Dont lose hope in my thought yet. Maybe God made people. Flat out. Then knew He couldnt be here right beside us because of how he made people. So. Let events happen, and let people write about it, and tryed to straighten the peoples way, with Christ.

Or maybe we are the shards of God, and the "holy" writings is our interpretations of how we understand ourself?

 

Maybe. I think that the one thing that is absolute is this. Christ was a stumbling block.

 

Finally, something vaugely worth taking note of... how is that an 'absolute'?

[Grandpa Harley]

Meta Comment

 

Well at the end of four pages of evasive drivel by our 'Fellowship' seeker, I'm just short of some time I'll never get back and none the wiser why gobshite is here...

[florduh]

I would like to believe that an omnipotent supernatural spirit watched over me, and that every bad thing that happens does so for a good reason. It's a comforting thought. However, that scenario is obviously not the case. If you can force yourself to believe such things, fine. If your rational mind and powers of observation and knowledge of history preclude such belief then you have no choice but to accept reality as it's presented to us.

 

Acorn, I'll accept that what you've been saying are your true thoughts on the subject. That being the case, I must say that you are creating your own personal feel-good philosophy from a book that has been interpreted to mean many different, opposing concepts. Like all Bible believers, you believe what you would like to be true and ignore or twist the remainder to fit your preconception.

 

Have a nice, free, yet preordained life.

 

- Chris