I Need Help

[Guest Zenislev]

Hi, first off I'd like to say thanks in advance for reading my post. I'm in a very confused point in my life and need help, so thanks for spending the time to help.

 

What I'm dealing with is probably typical of what many of you have dealt with (hence my coming to this website). I'm a Christian, and grew up in a (somewhat) Christian home, and have attended church regularly. I've always wanted to be a Christian, but have also always been a skeptic. Throughout high school I had to make my first confrontation with whether or not I really believed Christianity, and began reading much about evolution, creation, Biblical inerrancy, etc. What evidence I found was sufficient for me at the time, and I continued to develop my faith. The end of my high school years brought me to a very dark point in my life, from which my faith happened to bring me through. As such, I felt that I should not just get a job and work the rest of my life, but rather that I should serve God with my life.

 

That brings me to where I am now, in a Bible college. I'm training to be a pastor or some type of church worker. However, my skepticism has since kicked into high gear, and I now going through a very dreadful time in my life. It all started with questioning the little things, like, "When that preacher says that we need God's power, maybe God's power is just a sort of delusion that we ourselves set up? What if 'God's power' is just in your head?". It progressed to every aspect of one's spiritual life--prayer, faith, soulwinning, preaching; everything. I just couldn't shake it. I've tried and tried to just believe, just to have faith, just to stop questioning things, but to me that seems so intellectually dishonest. If my faith cannot stand up to simple questioning, then what is the worth of such a thing? Either way, for at least 2 years now I've been going through this, and have been constantly praying for God to show me the answer, to show me what I'm supposed to do, or how I'm supposed to believe, or to give me faith, but all to no avail.

 

I've also come to the point where I'm not looking at Christianity apologetically; I'm trying to decide whether or not it's true once and for all. And for once, I'm not so afraid to accept that it isn't. That used to be such a scary concept for me, but I don't care anymore. I think the reason that I can't shake the doubts that arise is that I need to know the truth, and will settle for nothing less. I don't know why, but it is what drives me. I just can't settle for what seems like the best life; because honestly, living a life of faith and serving God is what I want to do. But something in me won't let me do that without KNOWING that it's true.

 

Really, this dark time in my life has really been a rather good experience. I wonder how many people simply live their lives subduing their doubts and never really come to terms with what is real. For me it is such a big thing... Anyway, that is why I have come here. I need to know--What is it that was the straw that broke the camel's back for you? I just can't find that point, or that one piece of evidence that I can't explain away. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Most of people's objections to the Bible can be explained away, it's what I've gotten used to doing. I just need something that truly shows that Christianity is not the truth. I just want this whole ordeal to be over with, so I can live my life. I've been in this transitional phase for so long, I just want out. I've been to the brink of suicide and back for this stupid problem, and I'm now determined to settle it and start living my life. For that reason I thank you all again for any help you may offer me, it is more than welcome. I may not be able to respond to this for a while (since I'm still attending the Bible College), but may perhaps get a chance to read it, so please feel free to respond even if I don't respond back. That's funny too, because I've been afraid of posting this, thinking it would be a sin or something. That's what is so illogical and paradoxical about this whole thing-- all of the mechanisms of Christianity are dead set on keeping you in it. It just seems so... unfair. Anyway, thanks again, and I'm looking forward to hearing from you all.

[Guest Zenislev]

Oh and by the way, I should probably have specified my beliefs a bit more. I'm an Independent Fundamental Baptist, if that makes sense to any of you all. I believe the Bible is to be taken literally and therefore have come to be a Young Earth Creationist (probably fighting words around here..). Anyway, that is what I firmly believe, that the Bible is to be taken literally. I guess that might help in what advice you all give. Anyway, thanks again.

[Vigile]

I just can't find that point, or that one piece of evidence that I can't explain away

 

Perhaps you are looking at it backwards. What peice of evidence gives you a compelling reason to believe in the first place? I'm betting you believe now not based on reasoned examination of the evidence, but based on the fact that you were raised to believe and/or you accepted evidence offered you based on emotional appeal.

 

Step back and reexamine the reasons you believe. Do they hold water from an objective point of view? Are there other valid, perhaps better explanations for what you view as phenomena?

 

One minor example: Does prayer work? How many times has your congregation prayed for the recovery of the ill? How many of those times did the ill die anyway? Did the congregation not give god credit for those times when the ill recovered and also explain away those times the ill died by saying "it was god's will?"

 

See the problem with this test? There is no way god can fail this test. It's not a valid test and as such is a poor example of evidence. Do you base your faith upon this type of evidence? Is that rational? Is it a good idea to protect your faith with irrational evidence to the point that you would be self deluding yourself from finding other valid answers?

 

By that I mean, if your test for the eficacy of prayer is such that god is reveiled no matter the outcome, and assuming for a moment that prayer is as effective as say crossing one's fingers and hoping, isn't the danger high that you are deluding yourself and keeping yourself from seeing reality because stop looking for answers after an invalid test gives you the answer you believed true before you started looking for answers?

[Deva]

I think the reason that I can't shake the doubts that arise is that I need to know the truth, and will settle for nothing less.

 

I am quoting the above sentence because it really jumped out at me. The attitude expressed in it is absolutely necessary. If you need to know the truth, then you must get very serious - pardon me for being so blunt. I also come from an Independent Baptist background.

 

You have been trained to view the Bible in a particular way read the Bible in a particular way. That is- its the word of God and literally true. There are many other ways of understanding it. As evidence of this fact, look at all the divisions in the Church. They all have their different interepretations. There is a lot of symbolism and metaphor in the Bible. I think you honestly have to come to see this literal approach is a misreading of the text. Maybe you will realize it while you are in the Bible College. Also see for a fact it was written by human beings. I know you can come back with "they were inspired by God" but if so, exactly how, and how is the Bible superior to other religious texts? You really need to ask yourself many questions, if I may be blunt.

 

You are asking what was the straw that broke the camel's back - the one item that "truly shows that Christianity is not the truth."

 

The way fundamentalist Baptist Christians view creation is opposed to the findings of modern science. They cannot be reconciled. Evolution has a mountain of evidence - not just the fossil record although that is also persuasive. You might want to take up a study of "the other side of the question" in this area. Try to be as honest and non-biased as possible. Even try to forget the Bible exists and just look at the evidence. In fact fundamentalism arose as a reaction to modernity in the 19th century. This was the first issue that really troubled me in the Baptist church. It was one of the things I could not come to terms with, but there were also others.

 

The whole idea of God being soverign and ominipotent and yet it also being possible for things to happen outside his will- the whole free will issue as the Baptists present it really bothered me. I almost became a Calvinist at one time because of this issue.

 

I would say the last major thing was the whole notion of prayer. It never worked for me. I never saw any difference between talking to myself, thinking out a problem, and addressing the issue to God. I always did all the work.

 

I wish you well in your struggle to find truth.

[MonolithTMA]

"What is it that was the straw that broke the camel's back for you? "

 

Thanks for posting, and welcome!

 

I will tell you what the straw was by responding to what I quoted below.

 

"Most of people's objections to the Bible can be explained away,"

 

First let me begin with a question.

 

How comfortable are you, really, with those "explanations"?

 

Apologetics is one thing that led many of us away. You would read, and sometimes even use these apologetic arguments, all the while thinking, "Ummm...that doesn't really hold water."

[centauri]

(parts snipped for brevity)

As such, I felt that I should not just get a job and work the rest of my life, but rather that I should serve God with my life.

 

The ideal to serve "God" is quite subjective. It depends on what your definition is and whether your beliefs are

the result of objective analysis or if they've simply been acquired from others(like authority figures).

 

That brings me to where I am now, in a Bible college. I'm training to be a pastor or some type of church worker. However, my skepticism has since kicked into high gear, and I now going through a very dreadful time in my life. It all started with questioning the little things, like, "When that preacher says that we need God's power, maybe God's power is just a sort of delusion that we ourselves set up? What if 'God's power' is just in your head?".

 

Your perceptionss may simply be acquired beliefs, the baggage given to you by others.

I found this site to have some interesting ideas about Christianity and its goal to expand and dominate over all other spiritual beliefs. It's a rather chilling hypothesis, but maybe it's accurate.

http://www.christianitymeme.org/

 

It progressed to every aspect of one's spiritual life--prayer, faith, soulwinning, preaching; everything. I just couldn't shake it. I've tried and tried to just believe, just to have faith, just to stop questioning things, but to me that seems so intellectually dishonest. If my faith cannot stand up to simple questioning, then what is the worth of such a thing?

 

If you can't validate all that you feel you're expected to believe, then all you're really doing is playing a game

of make believe. Your faith becomes a form of metaphysical pacifier that keeps you grounded.

But artificial fruit is still artificial, even if it's pleasing to the senses.

 

Either way, for at least 2 years now I've been going through this, and have been constantly praying for God to show me the answer, to show me what I'm supposed to do, or how I'm supposed to believe, or to give me faith, but all to no avail.

 

Yes, that certainly sounds like you're becoming disillusioned, losing a piece of yourself that wasn't really you anyway.

Why try to wear a coat if it doesn't fit?

 

I've also come to the point where I'm not looking at Christianity apologetically; I'm trying to decide whether or not it's true once and for all.

 

Jews don't view Christianity as valid and in the case of the "Old" Testament, they use the same scriptures as Christians do.

They have many reasons for rejecting it and all the baggage that goes with it.

 

And for once, I'm not so afraid to accept that it isn't. That used to be such a scary concept for me, but I don't care anymore. I think the reason that I can't shake the doubts that arise is that I need to know the truth, and will settle for nothing less. I don't know why, but it is what drives me. I just can't settle for what seems like the best life; because honestly, living a life of faith and serving God is what I want to do. But something in me won't let me do that without KNOWING that it's true.

 

In my opinion, the grand promises made in the New Testament are dismal failures.

The contradicting doctrines between the Hebrew scriptures and the New Testament, are by themselves pretty good evidence that the Bible isn't the word of an almighty anything.

 

Most of people's objections to the Bible can be explained away, it's what I've gotten used to doing. I just need something that truly shows that Christianity is not the truth.

 

A trained apologist can rationalize the ears off of a rabbit.

What makes you think Christianity is the truth?

 

I just want this whole ordeal to be over with, so I can live my life. I've been in this transitional phase for so long, I just want out. I've been to the brink of suicide and back for this stupid problem, and I'm now determined to settle it and start living my life. For that reason I thank you all again for any help you may offer me, it is more than welcome. I may not be able to respond to this for a while (since I'm still attending the Bible College), but may perhaps get a chance to read it, so please feel free to respond even if I don't respond back. That's funny too, because I've been afraid of posting this, thinking it would be a sin or something. That's what is so illogical and paradoxical about this whole thing-- all of the mechanisms of Christianity are dead set on keeping you in it. It just seems so... unfair. Anyway, thanks again, and I'm looking forward to hearing from you all.

 

You're certainly struggling with it, and I think you need to ask yourself why you feel Christianity represents some great truth.

Then work backwards a bit, looking at your perceptions and asking where they came from.

Did you reach your conclusions objectively or have many of your ideas been given to you by others?

If you're in Bible College I can only guess what sort of dogma is being pounded into your skull.

[Scott_In_Michigan]

Zenislev, welcome! It appears that you've already begun to see the cracks in the foundation. I hope we can help you. Perhaps we cannot show you The Truth since no one really has all the answers, but maybe we can help you along the way to what you believe is The Truth.

 

First I have a question. Were you born into a Christian home? I'm assuming the answer is yes. That being the case, I'll throw this out there. What is it that automatically makes the religion a person is raised in to be the truth?

 

If a boy is raised in a home where racism is laid on thick, does that make hatred of other races acceptable? Of course not, but the boy wouldn't know any better. The same is true with Christianity. That same boy could be raised in a home where the NIV translation of the bible is seen as the best one, and all others are inferior. Until someone explains the reason for all of the different translations, he will probably assume that anything but the NIV is okay to read. Imagine being a child raised by parents who, while they had their own spiritual/religious beliefs, wanted their children to form their own beliefs themselves as well. Rather than forcing their kids to partake in their rituals (church in your case), they made an effort to isolate the children from those sources of influence. In the end the children could decide what they believed was truth.

 

Unfortunately many people do not have that luxury. We're raised to think a certain way, taught to see the world from the perspective of those who raised us. When we become adults and ask questions, the process of realizing that those beliefs may not be true can be difficult, and even painful in the way it affects relationships.

 

This may be difficult, but you need to step back from the religion in your life and start asking questions. Use the internet, do research, talk to others, etc. (But be VERY wary and careful of what you see and hear and read, because there are many sources of information that are not entirely trustworthy. In other words, take everything with a grain of salt!) Only when you can push aside all of those Christian assumptions, beliefs, superstitions, and rituals, will you be able to see just how ridiculous they are. And be wary, because just when you think you're on the right track, something from those old ways will rear it's head. I still have times when I'll be thinking about a particular aspect of spirituality and mentally I'll refer back to the bible.

 

I don't know if this will help you, but here's some questions that spurred me along the way away from religion.

 

- If God created everything, and he is omnipotent, why does evil exist? And why does he allow it to continue rather than snuffing it out, since we are supposedly his beloved creation, formed in his image?

- Why do Easter and Christmas coincide with dates that are significant to astrology and astronomy? And why does all of Christianity actually believe that December 25th is Christ's birthday when there is no substantial proof for it?

- If God wanted us to have free will, then why did he forbid partaking of the apple in the Garden of Eden? And why does he impose a thick book (the Bible) of laws and rules on us?

- Why does God resemble a tyrant more than a loving father?

- How can we believe that the Bible is the word of God, when it was assembled by men who were responsible for the assimilation of other religions into what would become the official religion of the Romans?

- Where are there so many parallels between Christianity/Bible and older religions and ancient writings?

- If Christ was so influential, and so charismatic, why is there so little written about him by the people who were around when he lived?

 

I hope we hear from you again soon. Whatever you do, don't let this whole situation with religion be enough to make you do something that would harm yourself physically. It's not worth it. The fact that you're asking questions rather than taking everything at face value is a GOOD thing. Keep it up!

[florduh]

Welcome, Zenislev!

 

I think a lot of us have gone through pretty much the same thinking process you are engaged in. As a result, we are ex-Christians.

 

I also believed the Bible was the literal word of God - it said so itself and that's what everyone told me. It seemed idiotic to claim your religion was based on the Bible, and then pick and choose what you wanted it to say, so I assumed it was all true and literal.

 

Not only was I studying diligently on my own, but attended Moody for further insight on the Bible. Problem was, the more I learned about the Bible, the more it became obvious it was at best a collection of derivative mythology or at worst, just some musings and stories based on some ancient tribal writings. It most certainly is not inerrant. It has internal conflicts, is at odds with known obervable fact, and even if you ignore the genocide and mood swings of the OT God, it just isn't logical.

 

As you and many others have, I prayed very hard for some understanding and resolution for my dilemma. Since these prayers are never answered, I had to accept reality for a change. I could no longer do the mental gymnastics necessary to maintain faith.

 

I also suggest that you really study the Bible without any preconceived notions. Look at it as if you were studying the Koran to see what it really says. After all, that holy book has the same roots as your Bible, but you don't assume up front that it is the true word of God. Looking around this website you will discover that one of the foremost reasons people left Christianity is study of the Bible!

 

Good luck in your search. We believe as much as our rational minds let us.

 

- Chris

[Ouroboros]

Oh and by the way, I should probably have specified my beliefs a bit more. I'm an Independent Fundamental Baptist, if that makes sense to any of you all. I believe the Bible is to be taken literally and therefore have come to be a Young Earth Creationist (probably fighting words around here..). Anyway, that is what I firmly believe, that the Bible is to be taken literally. I guess that might help in what advice you all give. Anyway, thanks again.

Well that's nice.

 

So, you say that completely, and everything, in the Bible, every single word, should be taken literally? Or do you agree that there are/must be, passages that only can be taken figuratively?

 

A couple of examples:

 

For instance as a YEC, you say you are, in what kind of atmosphere did God "speak"? Or are you willing to accept that Genesis, when it say "God spoke", that he did it in a different "dimension" or a some other way than we consider "speaking" that causes sound waves in air? In other words, not "literally" speaking as we understand it to be.

 

Does the word "kind" in the Noah story literally mean every kind of animal (sub-species), or do you claim that it means something else, like families of species or such? In other words, not literally, but just "kind'a".

 

Did God literally mean that Abraham didn't know his true name "YHWH", when the stories of Abraham is full of him using the name, even naming a city after YHWH.

 

There's a verse (don't remember where) in OT that say that God creates evil, is that true, or to be interpreted differently.

 

When Jesus told his disciples to hate their parents, did he mean that literally?

 

The Bible also claim that God cannot change his mind, but he did before the flood. You can't harmonize it without stretching the interpretations, or can you?

 

Oh, and lets not forget Paul who claims that Cretans are complete liars, but he admits that one of their own "prophets" was telling the truth that they were always lying... Huh?

 

And there's more...

 

Good luck with your search.

[Guest Zenislev]

Hello again, and thank you all for your responses. It's comforting in a strange way to see that people can get through this. I just want to say though, that one of the most frustrating parts about this whole thing, is that it's like I'm not allowed to question my faith, because that is what 'Satan' wants me to do. And if I drop out of church or become an atheist, people can just use the cop-out of saying I was never saved to begin with. It's like there's no way to challenge it. Anyway, though, I do feel hopeful about the situation now. I have been very busy with my Bible college and working almost 40 hours at the same time, but this weekend I finally got to do some reading that would be disallowed at the college (such as the Skeptic's Annotated Bible), and that has certainly helped me. I guess it just seems to me that there is no evidence that everything about Christianity is all in your head (prayer, fasting, preaching, the Holy Spirit, faith, etc.).

 

Anyway, I need to do some more searching. I still haven't found what I need... I really do want to serve God, and I need something concrete to cause me to do otherwise. Like I said, there are so many arguments that can be explained away, and I've looked into explanations for them all (why is there evil in the world, why do these two verses seem to be in conflict, etc.). There is generally an explanation for most of them. However, I think I'm beginning to see some things that I've never really considered before.

 

I think the story of Noah's Ark is the hardest to defend, and I've found many problems with it (how did a crew of 8 attend to some 15,000 animals for a year, what did the carnivores eat especially after they disembarked, where did the dove pluck the olive leaf from, etc.). Also, what about creatures that have such specialized killing mechanisms (spiders, scorpions, etc.). One could only assume they were designed, since they could not evolve those mechanisms on their own in just a few thousand years after the flood (and saying that God designed creatures to kill from the beginning contradicts scripture, which says everything ate herbs in the Garden). And what about the fact that the population had to go from 8 to about 1 or 2 million by the time of the exodus, which was only like 800-900 years later (I think)? It's points like those that I'm trying to find, that cannot be reconciled. Little inconsistencies amongst verses and vague objections about what God can and cannot do can be explained, but things like that are solid and concrete.

 

It's things like these that are really working on me now. Does anyone have any other things like the ones I've listed that are fairly concrete and cannot be explained away so readily? Anyway, I'm going to ask some of my friends about these questions or see if anyone has answers to them... And again, thank you all for your responses, it's beginning to seem like there might be an end to this madness I've been enduring for so long. I leave for the college in a few hours, so don't expect to hear from me in a while. Thank you in advance for any further help offered =)

 

(And sorry for the super-long posts)

[Guest Zenislev]

I guess it just seems to me that there is no evidence that everything about Christianity is all in your head (prayer, fasting, preaching, the Holy Spirit, faith, etc.).

 

Gah, I can't figure out how to edit posts. But I meant to say "I guess it just seems to me that there is no evidence that everything about Christianity isn't just all in your head..." Also, I apologize for not taking the time to respond to your individual posts, as I am a bit pressed for time with mid-terms coming up this week, and only having 2 and a half days to spend here at my house before I have to go back. Anyway, thanks again! Seeya

[Deva]

Does anyone have any other things like the ones I've listed that are fairly concrete and cannot be explained away so readily?

 

I don't mean to be flippant, but how many of them do you need? Seems to me if you just deeply go into the questions you outlined it would be persuasive enough.

 

...saying that God designed creatures to kill from the beginning contradicts scripture, which says everything ate herbs in the Garden

 

It is contradictory to the findings of the fossil record and all the dating methods of science to state that everything ate herbs at one time or that there was literally such a place as the Garden of Eden. There was also never a time when there was no death. There were saber toothed cats contemporary with humans -- how were they supposed to eat herbs with such teeth - only one example - huge bears, wolves, many carnivores existed then -- up until contemporary animals such as tigers.

 

I would advise you to completely detach yourself from the scriptures and look at the evidence with as unbiased an attitude as possible -- Biblical literalism and so-called scientific creationism just does not make sense.

[Taphophilia]

You don't get the edit function until you have enough posts. It's designed to keep trolls at bay.

 

While doing a search for Christian History, as I was still a Christian, I stumbled across this site:

 

Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth

 

Heaven, hell, prophecy, daemon possession, sacrifice, initiation by baptism, communion with God through a holy meal, the Holy Spirit, monotheism, immortality of the soul, and many other "Christian" ideas all belonged to earlier, older Pagan faiths. They were simply part of ancient Mediterranean culture. Along with miracle working sons of God, born of a mortal woman, they were common elements of pre-Christian Pagan religion. Mithras had 'em. So did Dionysus, Attis, Osiris, and Orpheus. And more.

 

And they had them generations—centuries— before Jesus was a twinkle in Saint Paul's eye.

 

After I read the site and also books on Pagan Origins by scholars, books that took my right leaning brain forever to get through. I had one question that I prayed fervently and to this day has never been answered. "Where outside of the Bible or Christianity is there objective concrete factual evidence that Christianity is true?"

 

My other issue was the Bible itself. No one has ever seen the Bible as it was originally written. By the time the later books of the Bible were written, the earlier ones had been worn out and copied. As you know, what we have are copies of copies of copies. In many cases, centuries removed from the originals. Copy errors were common and it is widely known though the ancient manuscripts that scribes changed the texts, whether intentionally or unintentionally. The scribes did not have spell check nor did they even have a dictionary and could spell as well as anyone today. However, this complicates the texts, because ancient Greek, is well... Greek, changing one word can change the entire meaning of the text. There are more discrepancies within the copies, that we have, than a computer can count. There are more discrepancies with in the texts, that we have, than are words in the New Testament.

 

If we assume that the original texts were, in fact, the inspired words of god, we cannot therefore say that the Bible we have today are the inspired words of god. Since we have no idea what the originals said and it is, at this time, impossible to compare the texts to the originals for verification of what is inspired and what is not.

[Guest Zenislev]

Does anyone have any other things like the ones I've listed that are fairly concrete and cannot be explained away so readily?

 

I don't mean to be flippant, but how many of them do you need? Seems to me if you just deeply go into the questions you outlined it would be persuasive enough.

 

...saying that God designed creatures to kill from the beginning contradicts scripture, which says everything ate herbs in the Garden

 

It is contradictory to the findings of the fossil record and all the dating methods of science to state that everything ate herbs at one time or that there was literally such a place as the Garden of Eden. There was also never a time when there was no death. There were saber toothed cats contemporary with humans -- how were they supposed to eat herbs with such teeth - only one example - huge bears, wolves, many carnivores existed then -- up until contemporary animals such as tigers.

 

I would advise you to completely detach yourself from the scriptures and look at the evidence with as unbiased an attitude as possible -- Biblical literalism and so-called scientific creationism just does not make sense.

 

Don't worry about being flippant, I need to hear the cold hard truth. I realize that these points I've gathered are persuasive in their own rights, but I'm afraid that they might not stand under the scrutiny of the people at the Bible college when I talk to them about this. I'm just trying to get as solid a case as I can. I either want to be totally sure the Bible is not God's Word, or totally sure that it is. I know that might sound like too much, but I know it will be hard for me to give everything up without ample evidence. Honestly, though, those things I've stated are really persuading me, I just need to talk to some people (who have been helping me with this faith thing) before I make any decisions. And I need some time to think them over myself... But anyway, thanks again for the responses. I probably won't reply for quite a while, because I'm about to leave right now, but feel free to reply with advice as you wish. Thanks again, and seeya

[Deva]

I either want to be totally sure the Bible is not God's Word, or totally sure that it is. I know that might sound like too much, but I know it will be hard for me to give everything up without ample evidence.

 

I am glad I did not come off as too harsh.

 

The idea that total certainty is possible is another part of the indoctrination. I hope you can settle this issue in your mind.

[webmdave]

I've found the work of Bart D. Ehrman especially helpful in understanding how the New Testament evolved into its present form. I'd highly recommend reading any of his books.

 

Here's a link to some of them: CLICK HERE

[MonolithTMA]

I've found the work of Bart D. Ehrman especially helpful in understanding how the New Testament evolved into its present form. I'd highly recommend reading any of his books.

 

Here's a link to some of them: CLICK HERE

 

Wow! He's quite prolific! Is there any one book that's good to start with?

[Grandpa Harley]

I dived in with 'Misquoting Jesus' and swam around a bit...

[webmdave]

I've found the work of Bart D. Ehrman especially helpful in understanding how the New Testament evolved into its present form. I'd highly recommend reading any of his books.

 

Here's a link to some of them: CLICK HERE

 

Wow! He's quite prolific! Is there any one book that's good to start with?

 

 

I found Lost Christianities extremely interesting.

[Antlerman]

I may not be able to respond to this for a while (since I'm still attending the Bible College), but may perhaps get a chance to read it, so please feel free to respond even if I don't respond back. That's funny too, because I've been afraid of posting this, thinking it would be a sin or something. That's what is so illogical and paradoxical about this whole thing-- all of the mechanisms of Christianity are dead set on keeping you in it. It just seems so... unfair. Anyway, thanks again, and I'm looking forward to hearing from you all.

I can't tell you how much this was my story and how I relate to you. I plan to spend some time on this later to try to be of some help to you. I only wish there would have been resources like this when I was in Bible College going through exactly what you described. I'll post a proper response later...

[Antlerman]

I'm just trying to get as solid a case as I can. I either want to be totally sure the Bible is not God's Word, or totally sure that it is. I know that might sound like too much, but I know it will be hard for me to give everything up without ample evidence. Honestly, though, those things I've stated are really persuading me, I just need to talk to some people (who have been helping me with this faith thing) before I make any decisions. And I need some time to think them over myself... But anyway, thanks again for the responses. I probably won't reply for quite a while, because I'm about to leave right now, but feel free to reply with advice as you wish. Thanks again, and seeya

Ok, I guess I have some time now. I really hear your struggle. Like someone else said, it's very much many of our stories here. I hear you looking for a single silver bullet, but I can tell you that doesn't exist for this reason, "A man convinced his will, remains of same opinion still". You're looking for something to defend yourself with to others. That's at least what I'm hearing. But for me in my dealing with the conflict between my heart of faith, and the theology of the evangelical world in the midst of my Bible College days like you, became more an overall sum total that told me it wasn't right. Personally, I think you already know this. This is more an exercise of being able to rationally explain it to others for yourself.

 

For me studying church history was a huge contributing factor. Also the dismissal of all other faiths as being impostors, or inferior spiritually in some way made the whole thing seem like a huge snow job to sell one's product over others in the marketplace of faiths (if that's a factor for you, you might want to browse over this debate here on that: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=20121 My opening statement is inside post number 3). But I would say most of all was my heart. I can't stress that enough. I truly "loved God", but what I was getting was anything but a freedom of spirit. It was religion.

 

Today I'm an atheist, but of the more "spiritual" sort, to use that word. In all honestly, I am far more on that road with what I was seeking for in "knowing the truth", now that I'm not limited by it's walls and ceiling, putting "God" into a box of doctrines. I often joke, "I'm more a Christian now that I'm not one, than I ever was when I was one." That says something. I don't believe God is a real being, but for all intents and purposes I serve what that word is supposed to represent more now in my heart, because I am free to. I'm not obligated to love. I choose to because I'm completely free to. In this sense its all more real, as opposed to trying to please a god. I just am and I live it. If there is a God, wouldn't he value the sincere heart that loves for no reason other than they value love for love's sake, above the religious who preach and present The Truth™, like a clean, white-washed sepulchral? It was positively amazing actually how when I let go of those beliefs, that my heart became truly 'born again'. Ironic.

 

Allowing what lives inside you to live. That's your silver bullet.

[R. S. Martin]

Here is Gabe's story Cutting the Tie that Binds on how he handled things with his school when he deconverted at a Christian school. I forget whether he was working on an MDiv or DMin, but something in that line. You might find it helpful. I am working on a masters degree in theology but the seminary where I am studying is not fundamentalist. Gabe established his position, moved out at the end of a semester, and did not return at the beginning of the new semester. Instead, he wrote a letter to his faculty members informing them of his deconversion and withdrawal from the school.

 

I informed my professors of my deconversion via email at the beginning of the new academic year just so they would know where I'm coming from in case I asked questions in class that were unusual for a Christian to ask. I had been a nontraditional or unorthodox Christian at the time when I applied to the program. I had been open about my beliefs and had been well accepted. They only required that students had a solid belief or value system. I had that. I did not anticipate any problems whatsoever when I deconverted.

 

I encountered more subtle problems than I had anticipated. The stereotype that atheists think Christians are stupid seems to be strong enough to challenge even the best of relationships with the most brilliant and best educated people alive. The relationship survived and misunderstandings were cleared up but there was a crisis, all because of that stupid stereotype. I think you are very wise in accumulating all the evidence you can to strengthen your position. Even so, I suggest you will not ever in this life be able to get your instructors to agree that you have a solid argument, or even that it makes sense, or that it is reasonable. Take a look at Gabe's story if you can possibly find the time.

 

The only "solid" answer I can give is that I could find no answers. Answers were promised and they never came. A God who promises peace if we obey him, but fails to deliver, is probably not a very real God. Phil. 4:9 says in KJV: Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you. I was taught that obedience to God via church and parents would bring peace. It did not work for me and I tried every last thing they had to suggest.

 

I tried it for forty years. Forty seems to be the sacred number in the Bible--forty years wandering in the wilderness, Moses was forty years old when he saw the burning bush, he worked forty more years before he was called to deliver his people. Jesus fasted forty days after his baptism, and was forty days on earth after his resurrection before his ascension. Etc. I'd searched forty years for answers. And there were none. It came to me almost like a voice from outside of myself that since I had not yet found answers, there must be none.

 

I had serious questions about the Plan of Salvation from the time I was a child of about eight and first heard that Jesus died so we could get to heaven. I knew that heaven was spiritual and that the part of the human that goes to heaven is the spirit. It made no sense to me that a dead body could somehow benefit the human soul, but I assumed if they said it did, it must be so. I only asked that someone explain it to me. They never did. No matter how long and how desperately I searched, they did not explain it. They said when I got older I would understand. By age forty I realized I was "older" and I still did not understand. I am over fifty by now and have studied theology for several years and I still don't understand. It is high time to move on.

 

For anyone who wants to take the Bible literally, Jesus did say something about "out of the mouths of babes and sucklings..." If this insight came to me as a child and did not change at all over all these many, many years...what more evidence can we ask???

 

I have some background in philosophy, religious studies, and theology. Drawing on that, here is how I make sense of Jesus' teachings:

 

Some truisms from the teachings of Jesus (KJV):

 

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light (Matt. 11:28-30).The truth will set you free (John 8:32). I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life (John 14:6). I and my Father are one John 10:30).

 

Therefore Jesus=God=Truth. There is rest and freedom in truth.

If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. (Matt. 16:24) Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. Ye are the salt of the earth (Matt. 5:10-13).

 

Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you (Phil. 4:9).

 

Following truth can mean self-sacrifice in the extreme but the rewards are even greater. Those who follow truth are indeed the preservers of human values.

 

*************************************

 

I was raised in a very religious situation and has access to little literature outside the Bible. So I read the Bible. That is what I know today and there are some very good parts that I continue to value to this day because of their positive impact on my life in times of great trial and crisis.

 

I guess for me the Bible was a friend. It's the way people used it that was wrong and abusive. It's the insistence that I submit without understanding, that I profess belief without knowledge or comprehension--that I LIE IN THE NAME OF GOD in order to belong--THAT is the evil of religion so far as I am concerned.

 

You have hopes of coming up with answers that your Bible College will accept, my dear young friend? Dream on. I, too, as well as many others on here, had dreams of coming up with irrefutable answers. I was totally convinced that my case was different from that of all others who had left before me. Surprise. They invented reasons to fit their own beliefs. They twisted my reasons to fit their own preconceived notions.

 

I met people who had left before me and for the first time I heard the real stories. I come from a horse and buggy Mennonite community. Scattered individuals from every generation leave. This is what I am talking about here. My family and faith community expressed such sharp disapproval that I did not realize I could make matters any worse by deconverting from religion altogether--not that that would have made any difference. So far as I could tell, they believed I was on the road to hell as it was. What difference would it make what beliefs I took along to hell with me? I didn't realize it would make any difference. Apparently it does.

 

No matter how moral a person I am, not believing in their god puts me in the category of unrepentant sinner. Their religion won't allow them to eat a formal religious meal such as funeral or wedding with such a person as me; that is based on 1 Cor. 5; never mind that atheism is not listed there. They accept the biblical dictates of Rom. 1 that we nonChristians reject belief in god of our own free will because of immorality. They reject all opposing information that could be derived from observation of real life. Many and many a tale on these forums bears this out.

 

There are Christians who say we were never a real Christian to begin with. Others think this is just a phase and sooner or later we'll come to our senses. Others believe we all have a right to our own beliefs. But there are those who turn cold on the spot when they find out we rejected their precious god belief, and no amount of peace-talk will win them over. With them, there is no reasoning, no reconciliation, nothing. It's a black and white, either/or world. Either you repent or you go to hell; the Bible says, I believe it, that settles it.

 

You will have to figure out what is best for your own situation, Zenislev. I wish you the best.

[bush country]

Don't worry about being flippant, I need to hear the cold hard truth. I realize that these points I've gathered are persuasive in their own rights, but I'm afraid that they might not stand under the scrutiny of the people at the Bible college when I talk to them about this. I'm just trying to get as solid a case as I can. I either want to be totally sure the Bible is not God's Word, or totally sure that it is. I know that might sound like too much, but I know it will be hard for me to give everything up without ample evidence. Honestly, though, those things I've stated are really persuading me, I just need to talk to some people (who have been helping me with this faith thing) before I make any decisions. And I need some time to think them over myself... But anyway, thanks again for the responses. I probably won't reply for quite a while, because I'm about to leave right now, but feel free to reply with advice as you wish. Thanks again, and seeya

Zenislev, I hope you make it back to read some of these posts. Many of us have been where you are now. For me, there was no one silver bullet that stopped my faith. It was the accumulation of evidence, some scientific, some theological, and some personal experience. So I cannot point to any one, single, end-all-arguments fact that changed me. A few examples:

 

Scientific - realizing that you are a YEC fan, you have discounted these things up front, but I will list a couple anyway.

 

1. The age of the earth is, as best we can determine it, about 4.5 billion years. Or about 750,000 times older than the approximately 6,000 years that the bible allows for. If god did create the earth 6k years ago, then he did a better job of setting things up to lead us astray than he did of leaving a plain record of creation for believers and non-believers alike to understand. Go the the public library and find some recent books on geology to help you learn more about this.

 

2. There is no archeological record of the exodus from Egypt. This is the item that kicked me over the edge into questioning the historicity of the bible. We are asked to believe that approximately 2 million people (600,000 men plus women and children) left Egypt (that has no record of them leaving) and wandered around in the desert for 40 years, 38 of which were spent in one location, along with all their various animals, and left no trace. There is another problem with this too, as far as numbers. Being generous, the total population of Egypt was maybe 3 million at the time this allegedly took place. Yet there is no record of it. For a more detailed look at this read The Bible Unearthed by Neil Asher Silberman and Israel Finkelstein.

 

Theological -

 

1. Adam and Eve. They did not exist literally. But even if they did the story makes no sense about the "Original Sin". God told Adam to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Genisis 2:17) but he didn't tell Eve. She wasn't made until later. That, along with it being the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" leads to the question - how could Eve possibly know that what she was doing was wrong? She didn't have that knowledge until after she ate from the tree. With no literal Adam & Eve, and no original sin, there is no reason for the cross. There are other more detailed discussions of this available so you can search for them too.

 

2. The Jewish rejection of Jesus as messiah. Rather than go into it, I will point you to Jews For Judaism. Go there and read why the Jews reject Jesus, not the Christian view of why this is so.

 

Personal - I suspect that maybe this will ultimately be the reason you leave Christianity. It was for me. During my time of deconversion I consistently prayed for god to stop it, to show himself, to do something that I could in some way know he was there. I don't mean some other person telling me about god, or telling me to read the bible, I mean for god to give me the faith to continue my belief in him. I asked this of the all mighty, all powerful, creator of the universe, god that loved me so much he died for me (even though he is eternal and unchanging and cannot die), god that wants a personal and loving relationship with me, for some tiny iota of a sense of his presense, and all I got was a resounding silence. I removed the emotion from my seeking him, waited for some inkling of his presence, and absolutely nothing happened. Then one day driving home from work, June 1 2007, I realized that Christianity is just another man-made religion and that I did not believe any of it any more. It was such a relief, a huge burden removed, and I no longer had that headache from trying to reconcile what I read in the bible and heard on Sunday morning with the rest of life.

 

About what you wrote above that I quoted. I pick up a sense of you worrying more about what other people think and trying to please them, than being true to yourself and living your own life on your own terms. You need to live your own life and not try to live your life as you think others want you to. If you have a need to serve then you can go into the Peace Corps or some other charitable organization that actually helps people. Or go into a field of scientific research that may lead to the cure of cancer. Make a real difference in the real world.

 

I apologize for the long post but my final item would be to suggest you look up some of the testimonies on this site. Mine is kind of dull but you can get to it through my member profile. I would look at Han Solo's too. There are so many more.

 

Hope this helps.

[Guest Zenislev]

Hi again, it's me. I apologize for not responding sooner, but I'm home for a few days now because of spring break so I have a chance to read up on things again. It's strange to read that so many of you have went through such similar conditions as I am right now... To be praying to God to increase your faith and help you out, but to get no response. God keeps getting more distant the more He neglects my supplications, and to be honest with you all my faith is nearly dead. I still pray, but even that is leaving me. Let me paste this from a word document I wrote at 5 AM in the morning when I couldn't sleep a few days ago-- it may help you all understand my reasoning::

 

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I must figure this out; I must write down my thoughts before they leave me. I am utterly confused. I see nothing but evidence which supports evolutionary theory, and I cannot shake the notion that the whole of religion is simply a mental exercise. Am I just thoroughly deceived? Is the whole of evolutionist theory a huge conspiracy designed by Satan? I cannot believe that. So all of the evidence is simply twisted, or falsified, by Satan? It is too much to believe. How could God allow such a thing to transpire? How could He expect us to believe contrary to logic and the evidence? How could He expect us to believe in something which has no basis other than “well everything looks designed� Is that not unreasonable? Can He truly find fault in my disbelief with such a compelling weight of evidence against the Bible and in support of evolutionary theory? I have prayed long for Him to help me out of this plight, and His silence leaves only several options. First, it leaves the option that He simply does not want to answer me because He does not have to. Fine, but I cannot be expected to serve Him under these conditions. I’m not being selfish or weak, I just cannot have the faith required if He will not assist me at all. Secondly, it leaves the option that He is not real or that His Word is unreliable. If either is the case, I cannot bring myself to devote my life to either one, not out of disdain or anything like that, but because I cannot have that kind of faith which denies all sound reasoning. Maybe that is my own fault, but I dare say that I have long lifted this problem up to God in supplications and prayers, and have never been answered. How could I not be justified in choosing to seek for answers myself? Am I to remain in this perpetual state of deathly depression and misery, always waiting on God until I either snap or I die?

 

I have long sought simply to show that Christianity could be true, but have ignored the possibility that there might be compelling evidence to suggest that it is not true. What I mean by this is when I hear of or research a contradiction in Scripture, I look at it apologetically, and seek to find a way to explain it away. This works for nearly every problem with scripture if you try hard enough. But as of late it has become an exercise too trying for me. I have discovered seemingly critical flaws within Scripture, but each time I bring them up to my friend the answer is the same; God could have jury-rigged history and whatever conditions inhibited the event from logically occurring such that they would divinely work out in a slapdash sort of way.

 

Why does the fossil record show fossil distribution so consistent with evolution? Well God just did that divinely to fool the evolutionists into believing their own theory.

 

What about all of the animals with features designed to kill and maim? How did they evolve such characteristics so quickly after being in a peaceful Garden of Eden? God created them all with said features knowing Adam would sin, so they would be ready to kill each other when he did.

 

Alright… starting to make less sense… let’s keep going.

 

What about all of the creatures which could not have possessed a vegetarian diet? The Bible is clear that there was no death before the Fall, and all organisms were vegetarian. How do you account for creatures which could not have been vegetarian? Think of the whale, which has a specialized mechanism for eating miniscule crustaceans, the mosquito, which is seemingly designed to suck out blood, the maggot, which feasts off of carrion, the tapeworm and ringworm, which infest living creatures, the bacterial infections which feed off of flesh, and other creatures? Now we begin to stretch it beyond the point of believability. Perhaps there were plants that existed back then which contained the nutrients necessary for those creatures and were in such a state that they could consume them? Perhaps those animals which could NOT POSSIBLY have eaten vegetation existed as carnivores who simply “held off†on eating anything and were divinely preserved until Adam sinned and were allowed to kill? Am I the only one who thinks such lines of reasoning are completely unreasonably???

 

How did the vast majority of plant life survive the flood, which would have buried or destroyed almost every type of plant? The only explanation is that God divinely preserved them; ANOTHER COP-OUT.

 

How did animals such as ants, termites, bees, etc. survive upon the ark when they need such a complex ecosystem and colonial structure to survive? Only explanation: God divinely preserved them. Yet another cop-out…

 

How did the 8 people leaving the ark repopulate the earth so completely rapidly as to provide for a Hebrew population of 1.2 million+ as we see detailed in Numbers? God divinely increased their birth-rate. UGH!!!

 

How can such an outlook on life be excused? If we look at things in this manner, EVERY SYSTEM OF FAITH is infallible, not just the Bible, because faith can excuse every internal flaw imaginable. Surely, if the evidence we find through scientific research was somewhat consistent with the Biblical viewpoint, there might be a reason to write things off as lies from Satan or what have you, but where do you draw the line? Where does it end? Did God put every little inconsistency, contradiction, and opposing piece of evidence there to confuse us so that we would need to have more faith? Does anyone see where I am getting at? Faith could then excuse any flaw at all. There IS no end to it. But alas, I do not have such faith. Perhaps other men do, and that is well with them, but I cannot muster up such belief. I will always keep my heart open to God, but I cannot continue to serve Him, and now I am not sure if I can even believe Him. I have done my part, and now will leave it up to God what becomes of me.

 

In conclusion, the evidence lines up completely with evolutionist theory, and is contradictory to the Scriptural account of things. Is this because A) evolution is a big conspiracy of the devil made to deceive us, or it is simply true and we have deceived ourselves? THE MOST LOGICAL and by far the easiest to believe is that evolution is simply true. It is so easy to excuse the flaws of Christianity because we want so badly for it to be true. It really would be a beautiful thing if it were true, and therefore we can delude ourselves so greatly into believing that it is all real. But truly, where is the evidence which speaks for it? Until I see it, I cannot be expected to believe it. I simply can’t. How can I be expected to suffer like this any longer with no help, and still maintain my belief? How long do I hold on? The most reasonable conclusion is that this is the answer I have been looking for; evolution is true, and the Bible is not…

 

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That's what I wrote down after being unable to get to sleep at 5 AM. Anyway, I thank you all again for helping me, things seem to be coming to an end... I just need to find out how to come to a final conclusion on the matter... I need this to be ended once and for all, not just a lingering sort of faith that persists and troubles me until it finally whimpers its final breath. Anywho, sorry for the ultra-long post, and thanks again for your time =) seeya (PS sorry I can't respond to each of your posts individually, you each bring up a lot of interesting points I would like to discuss. I just don't have the time as I work almost full time and go to the college full time and I hardly ever get a chance to come home and go to this site)

[Ouroboros]

Hi again, it's me. I apologize for not responding sooner, but I'm home for a few days now because of spring break so I have a chance to read up on things again. It's strange to read that so many of you have went through such similar conditions as I am right now... To be praying to God to increase your faith and help you out, but to get no response. God keeps getting more distant the more He neglects my supplications, and to be honest with you all my faith is nearly dead. I still pray, but even that is leaving me. Let me paste this from a word document I wrote at 5 AM in the morning when I couldn't sleep a few days ago-- it may help you all understand my reasoning::

That is soooo much like what I went through... It's the most difficult thing to experience. If God at least could answer the simple prayer for more faith... if he can't then can he really do anything? Does he really care at all?

 

And reading rest of your post... you're sure you're not a long-lost twin to me or something???