Ouroboros Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 Just a little thought I just had. If God exists, and he's the only God, he doesn't have any belief in any higher being, hence he is an atheist. So I'm just like God, having God's nature. Cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 If God really made mankind in his image, then that does make sense considering that we are born atheist and have to learn to believe in God through religious indoctrination. So, if we're in God's image when we don't believe in a higher power just like God doesn't, does that mean we are not in his image if we do believe in a higher power? So, if we believed in God, would this count as a sin since we are no longer in his image and no longer just like God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 Wow! Some real brain jerkers, Hans and Neon. I guess Christians will have to disagree on principle. And atheists can't discuss it because for them god doesn't exist. So I guess it's all just a big thought experiment, something that both Christians and atheists can participate in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 OMG, I just had the most awesome conversation about religion I think I've ever had with my sister. I was telling her about this thread and the idea of God being an atheist and the idea that atheists could be closer to God's image than Christians (I didn't actually mention what site I read it at or that I participated in it, I just said I read it at some religious message board that I post at) and she actually agreed that it made sense to her too, even though she's supposedly a Christian. Just earlier today she actually recommended me reading Thomas Paine's Age Of Reason and she said she thought it was very good and she also said she likes to visit the site infidels.org. Now I can't help but wonder if my sister could possibly be a closeted atheist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 3, 2008 Author Share Posted March 3, 2008 Wow! Some real brain jerkers, Hans and Neon. I guess Christians will have to disagree on principle. And atheists can't discuss it because for them god doesn't exist. So I guess it's all just a big thought experiment, something that both Christians and atheists can participate in. It's true. In a way it's a one-way formula, because either: - God doesn't exist, hence the default position one should take is to be an atheist or - God does exist, and God is an atheist, and we are an image of God and should imitate him, and hence also become atheists like him. (Unless of course, we're so inferior that we're not supposed to live up to God's standards of "goodness", "morals" or even to be "images of him". I guess that's the only situation when we "ought" to adore and praise a god.) Awesome! It sure sounds like she's on the path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Acorn Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Just a little thought I just had. If God exists, and he's the only God, he doesn't have any belief in any higher being, hence he is an atheist. So I'm just like God, having God's nature. Cool. No. If that where the case, He'd be Superman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 No. If that where the case, He'd be Superman You've lost me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 3, 2008 Author Share Posted March 3, 2008 No. If that where the case, He'd be Superman Eh? Wouldn't a supernatural man be a superman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Just a little thought I just had. If God exists, and he's the only God, he doesn't have any belief in any higher being, hence he is an atheist. So I'm just like God, having God's nature. Cool. Hey HanSolo! How about if all things are parts of God, God being the collective whole with an underlying "consciousness" that permeates all things, unconsciously to us all? However, that still might make God an Atheist... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaunilon Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Uh, folks? Atheism is defined as "the belief that Gd does not exist". Presumably a deity would believe in their own existence. Question to Neon: if everyone is born atheist and has to be subjected to 'religious indoctrination' to start being a theist, then how did the first theist come to be? I'm just sayin'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 3, 2008 Author Share Posted March 3, 2008 Hey HanSolo! How about if all things are parts of God, God being the collective whole with an underlying "consciousness" that permeates all things, unconsciously to us all? That's pretty much what I say, a lot of the time. After all, the Universe does contain at least one (1) consciousness: You. (Unless you believe that you don't exist.) However, that still might make God an Atheist... It would. It's the God of the Atheist, and the Atheist of the Gods. Maybe we can call him/her/it Atheos? The non-god. Or maybe Nahweh. (Socrates was accused of being "Atheos", refusing to believe in the established gods... but we know it was a sham trial. They were tired of his incessant questioning.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Uh, folks? Atheism is defined as "the belief that Gd does not exist".Presumably a deity would believe in their own existence. How do you know? Have you ever met God to know he's not insane? Question to Neon: if everyone is born atheist and has to be subjected to 'religious indoctrination' to start being a theist, then how did the first theist come to be? I'm just sayin'...The same way every other fairytale is created, human imagination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 3, 2008 Author Share Posted March 3, 2008 Uh, folks? Atheism is defined as "the belief that Gd does not exist". Actually it also has the definition of the lack of belief in a God. If you understand the slightly small difference there. But that's another issue. Presumably a deity would believe in their own existence. Well, that's true. I believe I exist too. But I'm not sure, since belief is only a belief in something we can't see... or how was it Heb 11:1 defined it? God is God's God. Nice little recursion there. Question to Neon: if everyone is born atheist and has to be subjected to 'religious indoctrination' to start being a theist, then how did the first theist come to be? I'm just sayin'... By grown ups inventing it because they couldn't accept not knowing what made the world tick, and it happened before science was invented. People made it up because of the fear of the unknown, and not understanding nature. Haven't you read anything about ancient history? They used to believe the gods made the rain, thunder, earthquakes etc. What Theist did that come from? And if Theism is something you're born with, how come 100% of the world are not Theists, and especially in China, or Europe or ...? Wouldn't it be the natural state of a child, if they're born with a belief? And also, if every child is born with the belief already in place, then what is the conversion for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaunilon Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Solo, whether it's an actual disbelief or a lack of belief, I think we can agree that the deity would not be an atheist as long as they believe in their own existence. Descartes and all that. As to the question to Neon, I was just pointing out the inherent contradiction in his statement. If one has to be "indoctrinated" in order to become religious, then religion would never have started since there was originally no one to do the indoctrinating. Anyhoo, how religion started is perhaps best left for another thread but I would point out that whether it began as a fairytale (see Homer), through direct experience (see various ancient Jewish writings), or as a result of reason (see Plato and Aristotle), it would not have begun as indoctrination. Let's be fair to those with whom we disagree rather than making statements that are obviously false, shall we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 3, 2008 Author Share Posted March 3, 2008 Solo, whether it's an actual disbelief or a lack of belief, I think we can agree that the deity would not be an atheist as long as they believe in their own existence. Descartes and all that. Well, yeah. True. He has self-awareness. But he doesn't believe in a higher being as a God, though. Nothing, supposedly, is higher than himself. So he can't have a faith, like a human. And I believe in myself, the same way as he believe in himself. And you believe in him as a higher being, hence Theist is the believe in a higher being as a God. I believe in myself as a being comparable to myself, like God would do. So could you say I'm a theist in regards to belief in myself? You see, the concepts aren't the same. If God believes in himself, and is not an atheist because of that (he's a theist in believing in himself) then I'm believing in myself too. He doesn't believe in a higher being, neither do I. So lets call those things something else, shall we? Belief in one-self: me-theism. Belief in a higher being: super-theism. Me as an atheist: got me-theism, but no super-theism You as a theist got: me-theism (you believe in yourself) and super-theism. God got: me-theism (he believes in himself), but no super-theism. Just like ... me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaunilon Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Ok, so you have you as a 'meist' but neither a 'theist' nor a 'super-meist'. The deity would be a 'meist' and a 'theist' but not a 'super-meist'. And I would be all three. Jeez oh pete my head hurts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 3, 2008 Author Share Posted March 3, 2008 Ok, so you have you as a 'meist' but neither a 'theist' nor a 'super-meist'. The deity would be a 'meist' and a 'theist' but not a 'super-meist'. And I would be all three. Jeez oh pete my head hurts. I think we both need to be beer-ists! Wait... who's Pete? Pete's Wicked Ale? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Wow! Some real brain jerkers, Hans and Neon. I guess Christians will have to disagree on principle. And atheists can't discuss it because for them god doesn't exist. So I guess it's all just a big thought experiment, something that both Christians and atheists can participate in. It's true. In a way it's a one-way formula, because either: - God doesn't exist, hence the default position one should take is to be an atheist or - God does exist, and God is an atheist, and we are an image of God and should imitate him, and hence also become atheists like him. I've been playing around with these ideas. I can just visualize this convo with a fundy: Me: I'm a good god-like person. I'm an atheist just like god. Fundy, sputtering: What do you mean--atheist like God!??! Me: Well, an atheist is someone who doesn't believe in someone higher than themselves. If God is supreme, then God can't believe in anyone higher. That makes God an atheist. Fundy: So you do believe in God??? Me: Uh, well, no. Fundy: But you just said God can't believe in anyone higher. If God believes in anything God must exist. How can you even talk about what God believes if you don't believe God exists??? Pastor Hans, what would be the correct answer in that situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 3, 2008 Author Share Posted March 3, 2008 Pastor Hans, what would be the correct answer in that situation? That they're stupid and can't comprehend thought-experiments. You have to explain what "hypothetical" means, and not before they understand what that is, can they grasp reasoning like this. Tell them that you talk in riddles and allegories just like Jesus, then they get it... until they ask you: "But then you must believe in Jesus too!" Aaaargh!!! You never win... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Hans, this is an aha! moment for me. (Just don't tell me this is an altogether serious thread.) The "they just don't understand thought experiments" is the perfect come-back for "the natural mind cannot comprehend the things of the spirit." Excellent thing to use on Kratos next time he pisses someone off with his endless elitism about having this wonderful spiritual mind that none of us supposedly can understand. As for Jesus--well, he's hypothetical and so long as they don't get "hypothetical" they can't be expected to understand. The next challenge will be to actually have the energy to go to all that trouble but it feels mighty good to visualize it, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev R Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Hans, very nice Ruby, The correct answer to that question is to remove one shoe and place it atop your head. Guaranteed debate winner every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 You missed out 'and walk slowly away' I prefer the denouement of a lot of the Koans of Dogen... you hit them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 3, 2008 Author Share Posted March 3, 2008 The correct answer to that question is to remove one shoe and place it atop your head. Guaranteed debate winner every time. The silly hat argument, I forgot about that one. You can also get one of those party-hats and put on your head, and tell the Christian, "look, now I'm also silly, and I am a Christian!" (Make sure you talk loud and with wide, big, eyes. You have to sound convincing. Yelling and rolling eyes can be a little bit too preacher like, so try to avoid going over the top like that.) Another silly-hat argument is to pull a plastic bag over your head. After they have resuscitated you (most likely you suffocated from the bag - you just have to hope that they are not True Christians who rather send you to Hell than talk to you, but that they have some decency left in their bodies to save you from death), tell them that you saw Jesus, and that he had a shoe on his head and told you to spread the Gospel of shoe-hats. Because the Godfather had remorse again (bi-polarity is a holy illness) for creating humans, and now he decided that only people with silly-shoe-hats will go to Heaven. (And please try to spread the Gospel with a fake Sicilian accent.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 3, 2008 Author Share Posted March 3, 2008 You missed out 'and walk slowly away' Backwards, and with a intense look in your eye, and the head slightly tilted up to the left, and a doubtful smile on your lips, to show that you fear they might explode any second and some little creature from Zyrgot will jump out. I prefer the denouement of a lot of the Koans of Dogen... you hit them. With your hat-shoe (or more correctly, it should be a shoe-hat, I'm still trying to wake up here...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 Solo, whether it's an actual disbelief or a lack of belief, I think we can agree that the deity would not be an atheist as long as they believe in their own existence. Descartes and all that.The term atheism simply means "lack of beliefs in god." A- means without, theism means beliefs in god, hence lack of beliefs in God. A God is a higher power, God lacks beliefs in other higher powers, hence God lacks beliefs in other Gods, hence God is an atheist. Even the Romans labeled first century Christians atheist because they lacked beliefs in their gods. It's like that one quote goes, "“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do" (I forgot who it was that said that). As to the question to Neon, I was just pointing out the inherent contradiction in his statement. If one has to be "indoctrinated" in order to become religious, then religion would never have started since there was originally no one to do the indoctrinating. Anyhoo, how religion started is perhaps best left for another thread but I would point out that whether it began as a fairytale (see Homer), through direct experience (see various ancient Jewish writings), or as a result of reason (see Plato and Aristotle), it would not have begun as indoctrination. Let's be fair to those with whom we disagree rather than making statements that are obviously false, shall we?Again, see my previous post about human imagination. Whether it's through learning it from someone else or learning it for themselves with their own imagination, children must learn how to believe in God the same way they learn how to believe in Santa Claus. When a child is born, do they automatically believe that there's a fat man in a red suit that goes ho ho ho and flies around the world in one night to deliver presents to children if they're good all year? No, they have to learn about Santa Claus from either their parents or someone else teaching them what Santa Claus is. Just because belief in Santa Claus was made up at one point doesn't mean children are born with a belief in Santa Claus. Likewise, just because beliefs in God were made up at one point, doesn't mean people are born to believe in God, otherwise there'd be no point in telling others about your beliefs since they'd believe it too, and children would just pop out of their mother's womb and automatically start singing praises to Jebus, which would be kind of creepy to me. Saying that God must exist in order for their to be the first theist is like saying that leprechauns must exist in order for people to believe in leprechauns. Furthermore, even if we accepted that having blind faith in God proves God must exist, it does not prove that your God must exist just because you believe it so. If having blind faith is all that is needed to prove that God existed, then Allah must be real, and your God must be false just because a Muslim believes it so, and anything we can imagine on the face of the Earth must be real just because we believe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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