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Goodbye Jesus

Some Questions


Whindian

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Hi everyone. You may remember I posted around 4-6 months back. I'm still in a similar position to before, doubting my faith but unable to give it up. I actaully admire you guys who were able to make such a clean break for deconversion. Anyway I realised that there were a few issues in my mind that have been preventing me from accepting that Christianity is a sham. I wanted to put these questions forward and see the response. Some of these questions have complex answers, I know. But much in the same way I'm having trouble accepting Christianity due to some difficult questions, I'm having trouble rejecting Christianity due to these ones.

 

1. Why, anthropologically speaking, does almost every culture have some concept of marriage? It would seem like a God-implanted natural law.

2. The argument by design question; why is everything so millimetre perfect for our planet to sustain life? How could this happen by chance?

3. Why has Judiasm hung around so long? As Mark Twain says 'What is the secret of the Jews immorality?'

4. How could the state of Israel be re-instituted without divine guidance (I know a very controversial, political question. I hesistated to put this one, but its one that sits in the back of my mind. I guess even super-sessionalist Christians would disagree with modern Israel being a Godly state. I'm well-informed on Zionism. Nonetheless it still strikes me as 'difficult' that Jews could hang around for 2500 years, and reclaim such a large parcel of land without some Godly interference).

 

This is all I can think of at the moment. I'll try to write some as they come to me. Cheers.

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Shit I just read those questions are realised they are pretty lame. I think I'm finally close to deconverting. The next part will be fun then (not); telling all my family and friends. I'm meant to be running a bible study group on my campus this year.

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Shit I just read those questions are realised they are pretty lame. I think I'm finally close to deconverting. The next part will be fun then (not); telling all my family and friends. I'm meant to be running a bible study group on my campus this year.

 

Hello.

 

Your questions do have exhaustive answers available in many places. If you decide they aren't so lame after all, research them or ask again here. Most of us try to help people with honest inquiries.

 

Anyway, that Bible study might be a good idea - unbiased study of the book is one of the main reasons people deconvert!

 

All the best,

- Chris

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Shit I just read those questions are realised they are pretty lame. I think I'm finally close to deconverting. The next part will be fun then (not); telling all my family and friends. I'm meant to be running a bible study group on my campus this year.

 

Hello.

 

Your questions do have exhaustive answers available in many places. If you decide they aren't so lame after all, research them or ask again here. Most of us try to help people with honest inquiries.

 

Anyway, that Bible study might be a good idea - unbiased study of the book is one of the main reasons people deconvert!

 

All the best,

- Chris

 

Oh I meant lame in comparison to the 100s of questions I have which challenge the validity of Christianity. I still think these are important and hope they get answered.

 

5. Why is sexuality such an important and integral part of a person? Why does sexual assault cause so much trauma, if its merely a reproductive outlet?

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Oh I meant lame in comparison to the 100s of questions I have which challenge the validity of Christianity. I still think these are important and hope they get answered.

 

5. Why is sexuality such an important and integral part of a person? Why does sexual assault cause so much trauma, if its merely a reproductive outlet?

 

Without the reproductive imperative a species will not survive. Sexual assault has nothing to do with reproduction. It's only about violence and domination.

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True thats a fair point. I guess I chose a poor example. What I meant is; if we take a christian view of sexuality, which is that it is an analogy between the union of man and god, then it makes sense that its such a powerful force. In an world without God, why would it carry any more significance than say, a person who eats with another?

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True thats a fair point. I guess I chose a poor example. What I meant is; if we take a christian view of sexuality, which is that it is an analogy between the union of man and god, then it makes sense that its such a powerful force. In an world without God, why would it carry any more significance than say, a person who eats with another?

 

 

Not just a Christian concept. See: "Tantric Yoga."

 

Sex is natures strongest drive. During mating season, none shall be deterred. Wouldn't you rather get laid than eat a Big Mac?

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True thats a fair point. I guess I chose a poor example. What I meant is; if we take a christian view of sexuality, which is that it is an analogy between the union of man and god, then it makes sense that its such a powerful force. In an world without God, why would it carry any more significance than say, a person who eats with another?

 

 

Not just a Christian concept. See: "Tantric Yoga."

 

Sex is natures strongest drive. During mating season, none shall be deterred. Wouldn't you rather get laid than eat a Big Mac?

 

LoL sure. My point is that human sexuality goes deeper than that. Look at the effect of adultery etc on people. Its like we have a natural predisposition towards poly-fidelity, but then our emotions depend on stable monogamy. It's difficult to explain from a purely natural perspective I think. I don't think I'm articulating myself correctly (playing a game atm while writing this :P).

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LoL sure. My point is that human sexuality goes deeper than that. Look at the effect of adultery etc on people. Its like we have a natural predisposition towards poly-fidelity, but then our emotions depend on stable monogamy. It's difficult to explain from a purely natural perspective I think. I don't think I'm articulating myself correctly (playing a game atm while writing this :P).

 

I see what you're getting at. It's too late for me to give it a fair shake now, so I'll sleep on it. But basically I think everything is "natural" and some forces of nature in us are at opposition. Sex is reproduction in its most basic form, but in modern society not so important. Emotions surrounding sex in humans also involve jealousy and control. Maybe more thoughts later . . .

 

- Chris

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1. Why, anthropologically speaking, does almost every culture have some concept of marriage? It would seem like a God-implanted natural law.

Some cultures have polygamy. That doesn't make it "right" in our culture, and it's not a god-implanted law. So why is anything else? I think there has been societies where marriage was not part of the culture. But I can't recall any right now, but I think there has been some.

 

2. The argument by design question; why is everything so millimetre perfect for our planet to sustain life? How could this happen by chance?

It isn't "millimetre" perfect. Life arose from the conditions that were. If things had been a bit different, we would have been different. And we would have been flying in the air, squawking to each other about how things could be designed so perfect for us flying turtles to exist.

 

If we meet a species that we can communicate with one day, that comes from another planet. Will this question make sense anymore?

 

Besides, our planet does not (might come as a surprise to you) travel around the star (our sun) in a perfect circle, but it moves about 5-10% in and out, because it follows an elliptical track. So those millimeters you're talking about are about 100,000 miles give and take. (I think it was half the distance to the moon?) And the same for the moon, it also goes in an elliptical journey. We also have weather changes. We've had iceages that we survive. That is radical changes. Don't compare your last 5 minutes with your next 5 minutes and think "nothing changes, it is perfect, the world is perfect." You're fooling yourself by doing that.

 

Our body is adjusting to new and extreme conditions. Cold, heat, dry air, ...

 

3. Why has Judiasm hung around so long? As Mark Twain says 'What is the secret of the Jews immorality?'

Same reason as the Buddhists? :shrug: Most likely they're older, because there's no proof that Judaism is as old as the OT claims.

 

4. How could the state of Israel be re-instituted without divine guidance (I know a very controversial, political question. I hesistated to put this one, but its one that sits in the back of my mind. I guess even super-sessionalist Christians would disagree with modern Israel being a Godly state. I'm well-informed on Zionism; by birth, I'm Jewish [that's not to say I'm a Zionist]. Nonetheless it still strikes me as 'difficult' that Jews could hang around for 2500 years, and reclaim such a large parcel of land without some Godly interference).

Well. If we give back some land to the native Indians in America, will that prove anything too? How about if we give some land back to the Armenians? One of the oldest orthodox Christians in history. Maybe the prophesies weren't about Israel, but about the Roman empire? Maybe it's to be restored and the Pope the conservator of tradition and faith?

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Hello Looking...

 

I'm just an idiot here, but if I may I'll try and pose an answer to your questions.

1. Humans, like geese, marry because we tend to do so naturally. What's so great about that?

2. How is it that you perceive life as being "millimeter perfect?" What do you mean by that? I don't think of life as being perfect at all. Life simply is what it is.

3. Why has Judaism hung around? Hell, why has christinity hung around??? Why do ANY religious systems "hang around"??? They do because they work for the satisfaction of emotional needs of their adherents.

4. The state of Israel was created as a result of a political imperative. Much as Yugoslavia was. How does divinity figure into it? IMO you really have to do a stretch of the imagination to put divine intervention into the picture.

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Thanks for the responses guys.

 

6. Why is religious belief such an integral part of so many culturals? Why are people so inherently spiritual? It must run deeper than a lack of other plausible explanations.

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True thats a fair point. I guess I chose a poor example. What I meant is; if we take a christian view of sexuality,
Which Christian view of sexuality? There's about a million of them out there. Doesn't the fact that there is no universal Christian view of sexuality show that marriage does not have one universal concept? Furthermore, how do you define what a marriage is? Would David's polygamy marriage to millions of wives count as a marriage in modern society? You say that repulsion to adultery is proof that God intends for marriage to be between a man and a woman, but even here in the bible is an example of a man after God's own heart involved in a polygamy relationship which God personally approved of himself. Furthermore, where in the bible does it ever actually say that consensual polygamy between adults is a sin? And in fact God even gave instructions with regards to polygamy to Jews in the bible but nowhere does he ever out-right forbid consensual polygamy. Thus, showing to me that modern society's view of what should be forbidden in sexual relationships might not be what God forbids in sexual relationships as there are many religious views as to what God allows or does not allow in sex.

 

which is that it is an analogy between the union of man and god, then it makes sense that its such a powerful force. In an world without God, why would it carry any more significance than say, a person who eats with another?
Marriage only carries more significance than other things because humans make it so. Marriage is a purely human construct, therefore it is up to humanity to decide how much value marriage has to them. And isn't the fact that adultery even exists at all or the fact that not all humans get married prove that not everyone values marriage as highly as the bible does? Thus, since not all humans value marriage equally, I don't see how this proves the existence of God.
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Thanks for the responses guys.

 

6. Why is religious belief such an integral part of so many culturals? Why are people so inherently spiritual? It must run deeper than a lack of other plausible explanations.

Again, as with marriage, unless there is proof that one's religion is true, religion is a man-made construct. Even if we accept the possibility that a religion may have been divinely inspired by God, one cannot deny that how one views their religion's doctrines is heavily influenced by humanity. Take the bible, for instance. Even if we accept the possibility that the original scriptures were divinely inspired by God, the scriptures themselves were canonized and compiled together by a man-made religious organization, the Council of Nicaea, who decided which scriptures made it into the biblical canon and which ones didn't. And there have been instances where certain verses in the bible which were added into the canon later like Mark chapter 16. If there was any divine work involved in the biblical canon's formation, then why did God wait so long to inspire the biblical scholars to include such an important chapter into the bible's canon? Even if we accept that that too was a divine inspiration, the fact that there are so many different denominations and different belief systems with opposing views of scriptures shows that mankind cannot interpret the scripture without some man-made influence. Thus, if we accept the possibility that religion is entirely man-made, then like marriage, religion is only important in cultures because mankind makes it important. Furthermore, isn't the fact that not all people believe in religion show that not all people hold religion as an integral part of their culture?
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Thanks for the responses guys.

 

6. Why is religious belief such an integral part of so many culturals? Why are people so inherently spiritual? It must run deeper than a lack of other plausible explanations.

Religious belief is a part of culture simply because the people of that culture have found a unity or community in that belief. Spirituality has been shown in at least one scientific study to have a genetic connection. Some of us don't have that genetic connection, which may account for our lack of religious belief. I for one will say it right up front...I don't have a belief in any such spiritual or supernatural things. I just don't have it, and it is of no importance to me that I don't. I don't see any "deepness" to it, I don't have an urge to seek such a thing, and based on my perception of my being, I don't see that I'm missing out on anything by it. Life to me is what it is, despite the inadequacies of the human condition. Beliefs in gods don't change a thing. Life goes on, regardless.

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5. Why is sexuality such an important and integral part of a person? Why does sexual assault cause so much trauma, if its merely a reproductive outlet?

Because I think we have evolved quite a bit from mere animals. The need for survival in human society is more than just being able to reproduce and eat some fruits from the trees and chase down a deer and eat it raw.

 

Our intelligence created new levels of demand and requirement to fit it, and we have evolved a complex system of morality, duties, laws, rights etc. And all these emotions I think is becoming more and more a part of us (mostly cultural I think, some by disposition).

 

 

6. Why is religious belief such an integral part of so many culturals? Why are people so inherently spiritual? It must run deeper than a lack of other plausible explanations.

No I think it's explainable.

 

The human intelligence, which is an advantage to hunt etc, also need imagination to outsmart the prey.

 

This imagination also carries (like many other things) good and bad sides to it. Our questioning about how things works, like rain, sun, snow, planting, etc, all of it required some kind of understanding, and us humans developed ideas to explain nature. One easy way was to come up with tree gods, water gods etc. And it evolved even more when the shaman discovered he had political powers and could demand things, now he started to invent things that he felt could give him more control. Animals have this alpha-dog behavior, so it's in there. And as society grew, people who could adjust to religious rituals had a better chance to survive in the group, since the group in unity were stronger than the group that was scattered. And so on...

 

I think it's many ways how the religious need in us evolved.

 

Don't assume that something you - personally - don't have an explanation for right now is totally, and universally, unexplainable.

 

Here's something that must be very strange to you: I met a guy once that I tried to talk to about God and religion, but he just told me he wasn't interested. And I wasn't pushing Christianity, I was just trying to talk about any kind of belief. But the thing was, he explained, that he never had a thought, or wish, or need, to talk about God or religion. Nothing at all. He never had wondered about where we came from, or how things come to be, or if there was something out there. He was totally and completely, genetically, non-spiritual.

 

This makes your premise wrong, that all human beings have this spiritual need. Since I met this guy, there is at least one person in the world that does not have that spiritual need. So it can't be something supernatural, but it most be somehow genetic and cultural based. (Unless the explanation is that he is antichrist and was made that way by God?! But nah, not him.)

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txt

 

Thanks for the reply man. I think you misunderstood what I was referred to with my 'no other plausible explanation' line. I wasn't saying that 'the only possibility is that God exists and put this need in people' (otherwise why bother asking the question). What I was referring to is that the reasoning for people being inherently spiritual (I think) must run deeper than the mere fact that they all thought 'How did I get here? The only possibility is through a creator', thus creating the concept of God, as some would argue.

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Thanks for the responses guys.

 

6. Why is religious belief such an integral part of so many culturals? Why are people so inherently spiritual? It must run deeper than a lack of other plausible explanations.

 

It must? I suppose there is a bit of irony in that your very consideration of this question seems to be motivated by a lack of better explanation. Explanatory power is the means by which we manipulate our environment and even our perceptions and thoughts. Apprehending causality is the first step in controlling variables. Explanatory, and on a nonlinguistic level, predictive power are very, very, very important to the survival and adaptability of humans, and other larger brained animals for that matter. Now granted, there are good explanations (science) and bad ones (superstition). I would suggest that nothing runs deeper in the human psyche than understanding, especially so when that understanding supersedes symbols. Informed intuition is can be far more consistent that the words used to depict it.

 

I personally think hyper-agency detection goes a long way toward explaining the development of religious beliefs. HanSolo hinted at some examples. Here is a talk by Andy Thomson about suicide bombers but in the talk somewhere he runs through a litany of psychological and evolutionary reasons for the development of religion. I wish I had a more succinct recourse for you but none comes to mind at 3:00am.

 

http://richarddawkins.net/article,1710,We-...kins-Foundation

 

The moral of the story: don’t underestimate the need to explain, especially whilst seeking an explanation.

 

Peace and welcome.

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txt

 

Hrmm I must of worded this question badly, because both you and HanSolo misunderstood what I was referring to. I think I posted my response to HanSolo at the same time you posted. Besides that, thanks for your response also.

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BTW both of those posts were very interesting. It seems like theres been a lot of thought put into this topic that I hadn't even really contemplated.

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I think understood your question. Reread my answer. My argument is simply that natural explanations for the inherent "spirituality" of people abound. No creator is needed for the concept of a creator to exist. Just as this is so with unicorns, no matter how many people believe in them. The question "how did I get here" is plenty to spur an individual along toward belief in God.

 

Further, I fail to see a substantial distinction between saying "the only possibility is that God exists and put this need in people" and "The only possibility is through a creator', thus creating the concept of God, as some would argue." They both argue the same thing. Maybe I am understanding you but I'm guessing not.

 

Peace again.

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I think understood your question. Reread my answer. My argument is simply that natural explanations for the inherent "spirituality" of people abound. No creator is needed for the concept of a creator to exist. Just as this is so with unicorns, no matter how many people believe in them. The question "how did I get here" is plenty to spur an individual along toward belief in God.

 

Further, I fail to see a substantial distinction between saying "the only possibility is that God exists and put this need in people" and "The only possibility is through a creator', thus creating the concept of God, as some would argue." They both argue the same thing. Maybe I am understanding you but I'm guessing not.

 

Peace again.

 

Sure. All I meant is that I expected someone to offer an explanation along the lines of 'Of course primitive people would be naturally religious. They look at the world, have no concept of how they arrived here, and a creator is the natural answer'. I do agree with this to some extent, but I don't think it goes far enough when considering how much spirituality plays a role in most cultures IMHO. You and HanSolo did offer many more reasons, for example the fact that religion builds unity and thus strengthens communities. Additionally the fact that religion conferred power among the early priests, who therefore had a natural interest in propogating it.

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Its not exactly on topic but a couple of days ago I was reading 1Cor12 and got to ver 9 when it hit me. I have been given the gift of faith. That was nearly 30 years ago now. I was at home, an unbeliever, non church attending, had no concerns or health worries when all of a sudden it was impressed on my mind that the Bible was completely true from cover to cover. I immediately couldn't help myself but read the Bible with great fervour. It was as if blinkers fell off. I couldn't put it down for many many weeks. I could see the world COMPLETELY differently. It is the same today.

 

How did it happen? I was not searching at all at the time. Although I have been involved with church since, I haven't gone for the last 12 or so years as the leadership of my local church left MUCH to be desired. As a matter of fact, I'm really almost angry at him for a number of VERY important reasons, one of them being honesty.

 

Because I'm not involved with other believers, I'm spiritually weak but my faith is ROCK-SOLID. If that makes me a target, then so be it.

 

Cheers

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Because I'm not involved with other believers, I'm spiritually weak but my faith is ROCK-SOLID. If that makes me a target, then so be it.

 

"Spiritually weak"? Yeah, I would guess so, since you feel the need to brag about your "rock solid faith" to a bunch of unbelievers. Feel better about yourself now?

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Its not exactly on topic but a couple of days ago I was reading 1Cor12 and got to ver 9 when it hit me. I have been given the gift of faith. That was nearly 30 years ago now. I was at home, an unbeliever, non church attending, had no concerns or health worries when all of a sudden it was impressed on my mind that the Bible was completely true from cover to cover. I immediately couldn't help myself but read the Bible with great fervour. It was as if blinkers fell off. I couldn't put it down for many many weeks. I could see the world COMPLETELY differently. It is the same today.

 

How did it happen? I was not searching at all at the time. Although I have been involved with church since, I haven't gone for the last 12 or so years as the leadership of my local church left MUCH to be desired. As a matter of fact, I'm really almost angry at him for a number of VERY important reasons, one of them being honesty.

 

Because I'm not involved with other believers, I'm spiritually weak but my faith is ROCK-SOLID. If that makes me a target, then so be it.

 

Cheers

 

I'm glad you're happy with your belief system, but I would dare to say that if you had been born and raised in the Middle East you might have one day thought, "Hey! I think the Koran is all true!"

 

Religion (or faith) is usually an accident of birth, determined by the society and family upbringing. In our culture, if you suddenly felt "spiritual" you would naturally look to the Bible for answers.

 

I consider myself to have the "gift of reason."

 

- Chris

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