white_raven23 Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 I want to talk about the Moses story. Just a piece of it. The part about the sequence of events surrounding the golden calf fiasco. Christians do not question or get pissy about the sequence of events usually portrayed in story versions of the event. The story versions...which happen to be the versions often told to children (as opposed to the bible version)...gets the sequence cruelly and unjustly wrong. Here is the story version, if you prefer cinema...this is the version portrayed in the Ten Commandments movie: Moses and company get to Sinai. Moses goes up the mountain to talk to god. He's gone for 40 days and nights. The Israelites get restive. Assuming Moses to be shirking or dead, they demand Aron to make them a god. He makes gold calf. People party hardy. Up on the mountain, Moses receives the law. He comes back down the mountain...sees the revelry...sees the calf. Angrily he accuses the people of breaking god's law. The people are punished by god. That is the story version. Christians tell this version to kids all the time (nevermind it's biblically inaccurate). Christians do not question this version any more than they do the actual biblical account. How do we know? Because when they tell the story, they STILL tell it this way....Moses goes up the mountain...receives law....goes down mountain....sees sinnin'....god punishes said sinnin'. But the problem with this story...aside from it's biblical inaccuracy...is that the sequence of events does not spark outrage or a feeling of unfairness in christian listeners. Why? Because in this story, the people are punished for a "sin" before learning it was a sin. Moses is up on the mountain getting the law...including the "no other gods before me" instruction. His delivery of the law, and the condemation of the people for breaking the law, are simultaneous in the story version. This is COMPLETELY unjust. Yet people accept it that way....just as they do Adam and eve being punished for steal...no...taking the fruit of right and wrong before being able to comprehend right and wrong. Nice. Now...the biblical version is only slightly better. Moses gets some of the law, including the "no other gods" law from god...the Israelites agree to abide by the laws....then Moses is up the mountain 40 days and nights getting....tabernacle instructions. Then the story goes back to matching the story version....until we come to who punishes the calf worshippers (Aron never incurs any punishment...not for making the calf, nor for lying about how the calf came to be). Moses calls the people who believe in god to join him. Those who do are armed, and instructed to kill everyone else...even their own family members. And they do so. Then... after these people have obeyed god by killing their friends and family... well... 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day." 30 The next day Moses said to the people, "You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin." 31 So Moses went back to the LORD and said, "Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. 32 But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written." 33 The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. 34 Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin." 35 And the LORD struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made. Now....the Levites had killed those who worshipped the calf...so who was left to be punished by god except.....oooh. Nice. god - "Blessed are you who have killed the false god worshippers....your reward? Plague." No wonder christians tend to stick to the story version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted March 8, 2008 Author Share Posted March 8, 2008 Comments welcome. 22 hours since I posted it. Was it good? Was it 'duh, no shit WR, preaching to the choir'? I'm thinking about tightening it up, and possibly doing a video blog entry I might post on Youtube....Want to start playing with the media features on my new Mac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outback Jack Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Well, I like it! I think you make a couple of good points. I'll be adding them to my repetwar(?), repatuare(?), repet..... my collection of things to keep in mind! Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Moses and Jim Jones had a lot in common. The story of Moses is not know outside the OT books. The ten commandments are the words of the covenant found in Exodus 34. Christians spend their whole life defending Chapter 20, which are not the ten commandments. Christians teach Chapter 20 and ignore Chapter 34--verse 28 identifies the chapter as the words of the covenant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 I'm thinking about tightening it up, and possibly doing a video blog entry I might post on Youtube....Want to start playing with the media features on my new Mac. Oooo...that would be cool! Do it! I think there are a LOT of accepted inaccuracies in Xian doctrine and/or story-telling and in the actual Bible version. Not to mention the number of sayings and cliches people are assume are in the Bible and actually aren't..."God helps those who help themselves" for instance. The unfairest part of the story...as you mentioned...how Aaron wasn't punished at all yet he was the leader! No one seems to point that one out. Seems typical of most political situations, wouldn't you think? Moses let's his brother-in-law off the hook, yet let's the peons be put to the sword. Wasn't there also a part about the ground swallowing up a bunch of people as well? Been a while since I've read my Bible stories... As for no one responding...well, I think your post got buried by all the drama around here lately...sorry... :embarassed: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Acorn Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 I want to talk about the Moses story. Just a piece of it. The part about the sequence of events surrounding the golden calf fiasco. Christians do not question or get pissy about the sequence of events usually portrayed in story versions of the event. The story versions...which happen to be the versions often told to children (as opposed to the bible version)...gets the sequence cruelly and unjustly wrong. Here is the story version, if you prefer cinema...this is the version portrayed in the Ten Commandments movie: Moses and company get to Sinai. Moses goes up the mountain to talk to god. He's gone for 40 days and nights. The Israelites get restive. Assuming Moses to be shirking or dead, they demand Aron to make them a god. He makes gold calf. People party hardy. Up on the mountain, Moses receives the law. He comes back down the mountain...sees the revelry...sees the calf. Angrily he accuses the people of breaking god's law. The people are punished by god. That is the story version. Christians tell this version to kids all the time (nevermind it's biblically inaccurate). Christians do not question this version any more than they do the actual biblical account. How do we know? Because when they tell the story, they STILL tell it this way....Moses goes up the mountain...receives law....goes down mountain....sees sinnin'....god punishes said sinnin'. But the problem with this story...aside from it's biblical inaccuracy...is that the sequence of events does not spark outrage or a feeling of unfairness in christian listeners. Why? Because in this story, the people are punished for a "sin" before learning it was a sin. Moses is up on the mountain getting the law...including the "no other gods before me" instruction. His delivery of the law, and the condemation of the people for breaking the law, are simultaneous in the story version. This is COMPLETELY unjust. Yet people accept it that way....just as they do Adam and eve being punished for steal...no...taking the fruit of right and wrong before being able to comprehend right and wrong. Nice. Now...the biblical version is only slightly better. Moses gets some of the law, including the "no other gods" law from god...the Israelites agree to abide by the laws....then Moses is up the mountain 40 days and nights getting....tabernacle instructions. Then the story goes back to matching the story version....until we come to who punishes the calf worshippers (Aron never incurs any punishment...not for making the calf, nor for lying about how the calf came to be). Moses calls the people who believe in god to join him. Those who do are armed, and instructed to kill everyone else...even their own family members. And they do so. Then... after these people have obeyed god by killing their friends and family... well... 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day." 30 The next day Moses said to the people, "You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin." 31 So Moses went back to the LORD and said, "Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. 32 But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written." 33 The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. 34 Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin." 35 And the LORD struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made. Now....the Levites had killed those who worshipped the calf...so who was left to be punished by god except.....oooh. Nice. god - "Blessed are you who have killed the false god worshippers....your reward? Plague." No wonder christians tend to stick to the story version. Did you know that the word, false, was not used at all before the Exodus 20? Kinda ironic. Makes me wonder if that was written at a different time. There are other writtings of more detail, the exclusions in the KJV, that give more dialogue of early Genesis period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Tightening it up would help. There's so much confusion in the pit of my stomach around that story that I can hardly focus on it. I think it's the overt injustices and inaccuracies you mention PLUS the absolute claims of inerrancy. Acorn, you wacky-faced falsified nutjob, try to detract from the topic by focusing on a stupid WORD. I'll bet that you preach those inaccuracies and that your guilty conscience forced you to reply and draw attention to yourself in some way so you did it by pointing out the stupid word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Acorn Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Tightening it up would help. There's so much confusion in the pit of my stomach around that story that I can hardly focus on it. I think it's the overt injustices and inaccuracies you mention PLUS the absolute claims of inerrancy. Acorn, you wacky-faced falsified nutjob, try to detract from the topic by focusing on a stupid WORD. I'll bet that you preach those inaccuracies and that your guilty conscience forced you to reply and draw attention to yourself in some way so you did it by pointing out the stupid word. How sweet ruby. Thank you. No, actually, I am very curious to the differences in scripture; as to the Op mentioned the timeframe of Exodus, calf inccident, etc. I had a dream once that I was sitting in a congregation and someone was preaching from a table, and I said no thats not correct, and stated something outside the Bible; and everybody looked at me funny. Weird? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 WR, didn't open this thread until now. Cool. Very awesome catch of contradiction in the sea of Biblical nonsense. I'm starting to think that you have to be God with an infinite mind to remember all of them... maybe it's the complete mess of paradoxes and weird stories that makes it the word of God? God help us if God is true... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted March 9, 2008 Author Share Posted March 9, 2008 Did you know that the word, false, was not used at all before the Exodus 20? Kinda ironic. Makes me wonder if that was written at a different time. There are other writtings of more detail, the exclusions in the KJV, that give more dialogue of early Genesis period. Oooh Oooh.....did you know the word 'orangutan' appears nowhere in the bible at all??? It's gotta mean something, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Acorn Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Did you know that the word, false, was not used at all before the Exodus 20? Kinda ironic. Makes me wonder if that was written at a different time. There are other writtings of more detail, the exclusions in the KJV, that give more dialogue of early Genesis period. Oooh Oooh.....did you know the word 'orangutan' appears nowhere in the bible at all??? It's gotta mean something, huh? So bias. Thats not intellegance. It was about your topic White Raven. Jebus is right. Give a dog a bone. Everone here talks about me, yet I reply on topic 90% of the time with my comment, and get jibberish back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted March 9, 2008 Author Share Posted March 9, 2008 So bias. Thats not intellegance. It was about your topic White Raven. Jebus is right. Give a dog a bone. Everone here talks about me, yet I reply on topic 90% of the time with my comment, and get jibberish back. What was on topic about pointing out the word 'false' doesn't appear in the bible until Exodus chapter 20? What is relevant about the observation? What is not pathetic about misspelling the word 'intelligence'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexyLady Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Very interesting, Raven. Amazing the things that are overlooked, neh? Another of my favorite stories that people seem to skip over the bad and play with what they think is good is the one where one of the prophets (I'm fuzzy which one, it's been awhile) came to a town and the children there mocked him for being bald. So what did he do? He asked god to send forth a bear to devour the children! Somehow, there is supposed to be a lesson, but I keep getting stuck on the part where a bunch of kids get eaten for mocking a bald man who was too insecure to just let it go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Elijah IIRC, one of the holiest of the old gents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexyLady Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Who can't handle being mocked for baldness.... ah, the people we venerate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Very interesting, Raven. Amazing the things that are overlooked, neh? Another of my favorite stories that people seem to skip over the bad and play with what they think is good is the one where one of the prophets (I'm fuzzy which one, it's been awhile) came to a town and the children there mocked him for being bald. So what did he do? He asked god to send forth a bear to devour the children! Somehow, there is supposed to be a lesson, but I keep getting stuck on the part where a bunch of kids get eaten for mocking a bald man who was too insecure to just let it go. The part I keep getting stuck on is how the two bears killed all (42, I think?) children. So, while the bears were busy mauling and devouring the first two kids, the other 40 just stood quietly awaiting their turns to be killed, or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kratos Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Just a question about the title of this thread: Accepted Inaccuracy Another reason to not like christians Why would anyone search for another reason not to like other human beings? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Well, it's back to the old hypocrisy thing... as is exemplified by dear old Acron and Jhon.... who just make up stuff from a dead book to suit their own prejudices Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffXL Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Why would anyone search for another reason not to like other human beings?John Kratos, Not so much a search as it is another item in a long, nauseating list of Christian lies, misrepresentation, and contradictions. We're not looking, it's arrayed right in front of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 I thought we were rid of that kRATos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Kratos has the advantage of having special guidance in his old book of lies about who to hate... Gay folk, uppity women... gotta love that bronze age and late antiquity morality... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 I have that book too but I am pretty good at picking cherries. We had a number of trees on the old farm--sour cherries as well as sweet cherries. I also have a Koran on my shelf. Haven't read too much of it but I understand it contains much of the same stuff. In addition, I have much real life, hands-on training in being the recipient of mockery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 I see Moses as a nut job that comes down from the mountain, sees the golden calf and thinks to himself, 'damn it, I forgot to include laws against worshipping other gods!' He throws the tablets down and breaks them, which gives him an excuse to go back up the mountain and hammer out a few more laws. Did it take him another 40 days and nights? God supposedly wrote down the second set of tablets also. That would make god a really slow speller and writer--it would have taken him 80 days and nights to scratch out 20 laws on tablets that could fit two tablets in one hand. Moses should have had his ipod with him and he could have used the cut and paste features. God messed up when he did not have humanity invent the computer and satellites until centuries later, he could have distributed the message world wide in a manner of moments. The laws were just for the Jews and no one else, unless you were travelling with them or had the misfortune, while dancing naked around your favorite goddess shrine, to bump into their god-approved army. Christians believe they are god's chosen so they claim their version of god and the babble supercedes the Jewish versions, even the law has been stolen by the christians who don't understand it anyway. There are some denominations that are trying to steal the Jewish religion and history by claiming the since Jesus was with god in the beginning (Book of John), the Jewish existance and religon are moot. However, the law was given to the Jew. It was not given to the Gentile, it was not intended for the Gentile. This is why the apostles argued that the gentile converts should not be made to live and act like Jews. Why was the law only intended for Jews? I believe it was because Moses wanted to control the Jews since he could not control what Gentiles did only by killing them off. He solved the problem of the Gentiles by killing them off and then killing off Jews who did not see his version accurately. From whence cometh the Jew if not by Gentiles first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted March 10, 2008 Author Share Posted March 10, 2008 Kratos has the advantage of having special guidance in his old book of lies about who to hate... Gay folk, uppity women... gotta love that bronze age and late antiquity morality... Makes his inquiry about why to "search"(yeah...it was real hidden) for reasons not to like people pretty ironic, doesn't it? Not to mention he has more to say about the thread title than it's actual content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Too many gays and uppity women... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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