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Goodbye Jesus

Religion should be treated with ridicule, hatred, and contempt


webmdave

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This is Christopher Hitchens on Free Speech. This is the tail end of twenty minute speech given in Canada in November 2006.

 

The reason I am posting this video here is because I would like to point out that Hitchens does not advocate hating Christians, Muslims, or other religious people. It is religion itself that he says should be hated.

 

I think that hating individuals because they are infected with religious delusion is just as bigoted as hating people who are infected with a disease, or who are ignorant, or who are mistaken about something. I left Christianity when I figured out I had been duped by an ancient, well supported, propaganda campaign machine. I was angry about it. I felt deceived and cheated. But feeling anger, in my mind, is not hatred. When Christians try to evangelize me, I frequently feel irritated. Irritation, however, is also not hatred.

 

Although I may hate what religion can do to a thinking mind, it is the parasitic meme that I despise, not the parasite's host.

 

Or maybe I'm off the mark here. What do you think?

 

--Dave, the WM

 

http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2008/03...eated-with.html

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This is no different from 'love the sinner, hate the sin'. I found it hypocritical then; I find its reverse hypocritical now.

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This is no different from 'love the sinner, hate the sin'. I found it hypocritical then; I find its reverse hypocritical now.

 

Actually, it is different. Religion is more a disease than a sin. I can hate cancer without hating cancer victims.

 

Although there may be a voluntary component to religion, for most people it is imprinted on their minds when they are quite young and impressionable. This imprinting is carried out by the people the children love, trust, and depend upon the most. It's relly hard to fault people for buying in to it under those circumstances.

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Guest eejay

I think at this point I have more than one emotional feeling when it comes to x-tians. For those who truly believe that they're trying to save me from the hell destination, and just want me to be part of what they believe is the afterlife. Those who just keep hoping that I'll go back someday; for some of those I feel pity. Sad that they are so taken in and just can't fathom that what they'd been taught to believe all these years could be so off the wall ridiculous. Sad that they are so bound, living in the straightjacket of their faith, that they can't even really enjoy all that life has to offer, because that's 'of the world'. My feeling for the truly radical, in your face x-tian who doesn't mind their business, is definately anger and bitterness. For all the esteem problems I've suffered over the years when people like that tried to belittle me, that I was unworthy, etc. I can't possibly like those people. I don't know if it is hatred or not. I am trying very hard to undergo complete healing in my life and letting the past go. I don't feel that with the situations I've been through, that I could ever find myself in any kind of relationship with a fundy x-tian because that would become an obstacle at some point. I had a previous relationship with a JW some years ago, and they were excommunicated because of me, leaving that person torn to choose between their faith and the person they love. It's just not a healthy situation. I do know that I definately hate the x-tian religion, along with a few others. I guess I do to some extent hate x-tians in general, but not in the sense where I actually hate the person. Who knows...they may someday decide to open their eyes.

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This is no different from 'love the sinner, hate the sin'. I found it hypocritical then; I find its reverse hypocritical now.

I think I'm leaning towards the same view as you.

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The reason I am posting this video here is because I would like to point out that Hitchens does not advocate hating Christians, Muslims, or other religious people. It is religion itself that he says should be hated.

Fuck Hitchens and his shoulds.

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The reason I am posting this video here is because I would like to point out that Hitchens does not advocate hating Christians, Muslims, or other religious people. It is religion itself that he says should be hated.

Fuck Hitchens and his shoulds.

Hitchens is sharp, concise, and well spoken. And I doubt he would like to be fucked.

To the OP, diseased individuals, unless mentally deficient, don't believe you are going to hell unless they personally give you their disease. I'm sorry, but xtianity took my childhood, fucked up my mental faculties, and took years to finally be free of.

I hate xtians and xtianity with a passion not felt for anything else.

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Guest eejay
The reason I am posting this video here is because I would like to point out that Hitchens does not advocate hating Christians, Muslims, or other religious people. It is religion itself that he says should be hated.

Fuck Hitchens and his shoulds.

Hitchens is sharp, concise, and well spoken. And I doubt he would like to be fucked.

To the OP, diseased individuals, unless mentally deficient, don't believe you are going to hell unless they personally give you their disease. I'm sorry, but xtianity took my childhood, fucked up my mental faculties, and took years to finally be free of.

I hate xtians and xtianity with a passion not felt for anything else.

You are not alone par4. The best years of my life were ruined by it also. Flying was my escape and only means of what little sanity there was in my life at that time. It's hard to erase the bad memories, but I sure am trying.

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The reason I am posting this video here is because I would like to point out that Hitchens does not advocate hating Christians, Muslims, or other religious people. It is religion itself that he says should be hated.

Fuck Hitchens and his shoulds.

Hitchens is sharp, concise, and well spoken.

Greetings Par4. I hope you are well my man. The more North Carolinians here the better in my opinion.

 

I bet that I would agree that Hitchens is an intelligent and articulate person. But I suggest that among the things we hated about Christianity was the constant bombardment of "shoulds". You should do this and you should do that. If he wishes to persuade me then he will have to find a way to expunge the word should from his vocabulary.

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Hey Legion!

He does generalize a bit, but Hitchens was one of the first authors I read when I began to question xtianity, so I have a soft spot.

Hope all is well in your neck of the woods!

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This is no different from 'love the sinner, hate the sin'. I found it hypocritical then; I find its reverse hypocritical now.

I think I'm leaning towards the same view as you.

 

Agreed. "Love the sinner, hate the sin" is what leads to bigotry and hypocrisy within the church. I don't see how the reverse is any different.

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I think there is a danger every time someone make polarizing statements (I do too sometimes - without thinking about it). What I think might be the problem with statements like this, isn't so much if I think this way or not, if I actually believe religion is a delusion or worthy of despise, but to what effects will it lead? In essence, what is the consequences from making statements like "hate religion, but love the religious?" I know from my experience that I think the slogan is stupid and annoying when it comes from Christians, and it's a big turnoff to even listen to what they have to say. So how will religious people (of all kinds) take this? Will this open up for conversation and help us further any goals of a more approving society for non-believers? I'm not sure. I think it might backfire and make it worse. If that's the case, then why do it?

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I read Hitchen's book "God is not Good" and personally didn't particularly care for it. I guess I have been out of xianity enough time and have removed myself from it so that I don't get as riled up about it even though I do find much of it repugnant.

 

I agree with those who have a problem with the title of this thread. I don't like anyone telling me what I "should" do, much less that I should hate something. There is a very very fine line between hating ideology and the person who spouts it. In the real world do people make this distiction? Also, "Religion" covers a lot of territory.

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Religion, per se, isn't worth hating. But certain religious ideas and doctrines must be aggressively attacked when those ideas cause religious people to infringe on someone else's liberties.

 

A person reduced to sucking his thumb and gazing at soap operas on TV isn't actually hurting someone else so let him be. If a person's religion keeps him pacified through the day so he can function on his own, then let him be. But when a mental illness, even when presented in the guise of religion, causes anti-social behavior in a pluralistic, multi-cultural, diverse society, the beliefs that trigger such behavior have to be challenged. When such belief causes abuse of others in the home, it has to be challenged as well.

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Dave, I think you raised an excellent topic. Seems like it's a thorny issue, difficult to sort through. I really like the perspective eejay and Knitterman bring to it.

 

Religion, per se, isn't worth hating. But certain religious ideas and doctrines must be aggressively attacked

 

  • when those ideas cause religious people to infringe on someone else's liberties.

 

  • causes anti-social behavior in a pluralistic, multi-cultural, diverse society, the beliefs that trigger such behavior have to be challenged.

 

  • When such belief causes abuse of others in the home, it has to be challenged as well.

 

I'm trying to balance all of this with "love the religious but hate the religion."

 

I think it depends what that does to the relationship. There are people who "love me as a sinner." When they do that, they see me as a condemned criminal who deserves to go to hell unless I repent. I find that abusive and unacceptable and I relieve them of my presence.

 

There are others who disagree that my position is the correct position but but so be it. I'm a human being first and what I believe about God is my own business, much as my political position is my own business, or how I manage my finances. We have a good relationship.

 

How people treat me and each other is far more important to me than what they profess to believe or not believe. Underlying values and personality seem to determine how people treat each other. I find that religion or lack thereof has nothing to do with it.

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Dave, I think you raised an excellent topic. Seems like it's a thorny issue, difficult to sort through. I really like the perspective eejay and Knitterman bring to it.

 

Religion, per se, isn't worth hating. But certain religious ideas and doctrines must be aggressively attacked

 

  • when those ideas cause religious people to infringe on someone else's liberties.

 

  • causes anti-social behavior in a pluralistic, multi-cultural, diverse society, the beliefs that trigger such behavior have to be challenged.

 

  • When such belief causes abuse of others in the home, it has to be challenged as well.

 

I'm trying to balance all of this with "love the religious but hate the religion."

 

I think it depends what that does to the relationship. There are people who "love me as a sinner." When they do that, they see me as a condemned criminal who deserves to go to hell unless I repent. I find that abusive and unacceptable and I relieve them of my presence.

 

There are others who disagree that my position is the correct position but but so be it. I'm a human being first and what I believe about God is my own business, much as my political position is my own business, or how I manage my finances. We have a good relationship.

 

How people treat me and each other is far more important to me than what they profess to believe or not believe. Underlying values and personality seem to determine how people treat each other. I find that religion or lack thereof has nothing to do with it.

 

I think for me, RubySera, you couldn't have hit the nail more solidly on the head.

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That smirky little smile, then a quiet little "do you know jebus?" brings my blood to a boil in 3 secs. flat. No love lost. I hate xtians and xtianity.

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At the risk of being labelled a pollyanna, I have to say that I really have trouble with hate. Hate is a very serious emotion and for it to mean anything to me it really is reserved for pretty extreme cases. And always for specific individuals. I cannot hate a group of people simply for their beliefs. I can't really even hate an individual for what they believe. I can however, hate them for what they do because of that belief.

 

So as far as love the xtian, hate their beliefs... I don't feel hypocritical about that. Being xtian is only one part of who an individual is. I don't agree with most things that libertarians believe, but I don't hate libertarians. In fact I'm quite fond of a number of libertarians here on ex-C. Does that make me a hypocrite?

 

To take it one step further... I really dislike (can't say hate) a lot of things that most Americans believe in... but I don't hate all Americans. How ludicrous would that be?

 

Heather

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At the risk of being labelled a pollyanna, I have to say that I really have trouble with hate. Hate is a very serious emotion and for it to mean anything to me it really is reserved for pretty extreme cases. And always for specific individuals. I cannot hate a group of people simply for their beliefs. I can't really even hate an individual for what they believe. I can however, hate them for what they do because of that belief.

 

So as far as love the xtian, hate their beliefs... I don't feel hypocritical about that. Being xtian is only one part of who an individual is. I don't agree with most things that libertarians believe, but I don't hate libertarians. In fact I'm quite fond of a number of libertarians here on ex-C. Does that make me a hypocrite?

 

To take it one step further... I really dislike (can't say hate) a lot of things that most Americans believe in... but I don't hate all Americans. How ludicrous would that be?

 

Heather

Heather, at the risk of sounding condescending, I'm really not a hater. I'm a good natured grandfather with an ascerbic sense of humor. I reserve most of my ire for xtians, simply for what they did, and continue to try to do, to me. Think of a person with an illness. You certainly would feel compassion. Now imagine that that ill person made a point, even a challenge, of trying to make you sick. Every once in a while, he just checks in to ask "are you sick yet? I'm praying that you;ll see the light and get sick."

I stand by my emotions. I hate xtians and xtianity.

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It's like the George A Romero Zombies... they really want to devour you and make you one of them...

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That smirky little smile, then a quiet little "do you know jebus?" brings my blood to a boil in 3 secs. flat. No love lost. I hate xtians and xtianity.

 

At the risk of being labelled a pollyanna, I have to say that I really have trouble with hate. Hate is a very serious emotion and for it to mean anything to me it really is reserved for pretty extreme cases. And always for specific individuals. I cannot hate a group of people simply for their beliefs. I can't really even hate an individual for what they believe. I can however, hate them for what they do because of that belief.

 

So as far as love the xtian, hate their beliefs... I don't feel hypocritical about that. Being xtian is only one part of who an individual is. I don't agree with most things that libertarians believe, but I don't hate libertarians. In fact I'm quite fond of a number of libertarians here on ex-C. Does that make me a hypocrite?

 

To take it one step further... I really dislike (can't say hate) a lot of things that most Americans believe in... but I don't hate all Americans. How ludicrous would that be?

 

Heather

 

I'm beginning to see a pattern here. Heather, correct me if I'm wrong but I think at one point you said you encounter no fundies in your part of the world. On the other hand, what par4 describes is pure-bred born-again fundy evangelicalism at its finest (most obnoxious). Like I said in my post earlier in this thread, these are two different brands of religion and I cannot relate to the two in the same way. To be loved only for one's potentiality of being snared is like being a fish in a creek when an angler shows up with fishing gear. Don't ask me to love 'em.

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A rose is a rose and an asshole is an asshole. Nice xtians are nice people even when not in church. Asshole xtians are still assholes even if directed by the holy ghost. A person can wear any type of clothing and still be the same underneath. Sometimes it takes hating a person in order to get things done. The ulterior motive of a xtian is to further the cause of their religion and denominational teaching. It is impossible to accept a xtian without accepting the religion too. Where the body goes, so goes the religion. I'm not going to post signs in my yard for xtians to stay away but that does not mean I want to hear long hours of nonsense about that religion. My door is open to anyone and it closes just as well when they leave. I'd have to say that my biggest gripe about xtianity is the guilt trip it plays on people. How many people have destroyed their own personal lives thinking they are spawns of hell or cursed by god for the lifestyle they live, when they did not have to carry such guilt?

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One of my online agnostic friends linked me today to an article dealing with this subject about whether or not we should respect believers even if we disagree with them and I think it brings up some really good points: http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/respec...ious-believers/ One point they brought up that I really like is that it's not that much different from politics. I'm democratic but even if there are members here who are Republican, that doesn't mean I have to hate them even if I don't disagree with their position. And like this article says, even if I don't agree with their political position, that doesn't mean I can't respect them for other values they may have that I do agree with. After all, isn't there an old saying that goes "to agree to disagree?"

 

Personally, I think it's our differences that make people interesting and life would be boring if we all thought the same. Another example is that it's like how you might have one favorite football team you really love but your friends might hate that team and support another one you don't like. If your whole life is centered around football, certainly this can create problems but if you can find other common bonds to have, I don't see why this can stop you from respecting people even if you don't agree with everything. You might not be able to respect them for their favorite football team, but couldn't you still respect them for these other aspects of your life that you do have in common? Likewise, I can see how "hate the religion, love the religious" might become problematic if their religion is their only aspect of their life they share with you, but if there are other aspects of their lives that you can still find value in to respect in spite of their religion, if we can still maintain friendships with each other in spite of our differences in our hobbies or political differences, I don't see how religion is much different than those. And honestly, as long as Christians aren't trying to control my life, I don't care how they waste their Sunday mornings.

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This really depends on your moral ground.

 

How you look at the world.

 

 

From the big picture point of view it is survival, there is little way around that.

It is recognizing the suicidal mechanism in the collective mind of humans and ripping the screaming parasite off.

From the global perspective, it is removing the haze of animal stupidity from ourselves.

 

From the humanist perspective, it is another cruel purging.

It is a majority changing the lives of a minority.

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