Ouroboros Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 That's funny... I don't recall her (Cerise) ever stating that she actually met the biblical criteria for being one. Of course, I don't recall knowing anyone who has met the biblical criteria for being one. I know, I know... Different time, different thread, get the heck out of here, Fwee. OOOH STOP!!! My head hurts!!! Yeah, like I said in another thread, Christians are really atheists in their hearts, but they refuse to admit they are, and continue in their delusion of a fake religion to hide the fact they actually don't believe... Just being a little evil here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Is there anyone here that actually was compelled to de-convert based only on rational reasons, and no emotions? This is a good question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Is there anyone here that actually was compelled to de-convert based only on rational reasons, and no emotions? I'm thinking along the lines of this being an impossiblility. My reason for saying that is due to the fact that the mind is way too linked together as far as the logical and emotional centers go. Look at it this way... If you were given an extremely complex mathematical problem to solve, and someone put a gun to your head and told you that if you don't solve it, and solve it correctly, they would blow your brains out, your logical and emotional centers would be fired-up big time. Now, apply this to the deconversion process where the math problem is the bible and the gun is hell. Same thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 I'm thinking along the lines of this being an impossiblility. My reason for saying that is due to the fact that the mind is way too linked together as far as the logical and emotional centers go. Look at it this way... If you were given an extremely complex mathematical problem to solve, and someone put a gun to your head and told you that if you don't solve it, and solve it correctly, they would blow your brains out, your logical and emotional centers would be fired-up big time. Now, apply this to the deconversion process where the math problem is the bible and the gun is hell. Same thing... I think there's a relation between that religion is pretty emotional stuff, and most logic and reason are subdued while you believe, and you even know it sometimes, so when there is an event that crashes your emotions, you can't trust the it anymore to carry the burden of contradicting evidence. So you finally give up of emotional reasons, and the logical and rational reasons start taking root instead. I mean just because the emotional crash, the emotions get replaced somehow...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 I think there's a relation between that religion is pretty emotional stuff, and most logic and reason are subdued while you believe, and you even know it sometimes, so when there is an event that crashes your emotions, you can't trust the it anymore to carry the burden of contradicting evidence. So you finally give up of emotional reasons, and the logical and rational reasons start taking root instead. I mean just because the emotional crash, the emotions get replaced somehow...? Seeing as religion is based on instilling fear and doubt into a given population.....reason and logic would be used to refute the religion, and if the subject is ready to stop feeling fear (it can be addictive, ask battered women) then the fear is replaced by calm and contentment. So the emotion ends up being the reinforcement of logic in reason when it comes to choosing a new life course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 So the emotion ends up being the reinforcement of logic in reason when it comes to choosing a new life course. This is an interesting way of looking at it. I have one quick question to throw in here... Anyone can answer how they see fit. Where exactly does honesty come into play during the deconversion process and, is honesty a reason, an emotion, or something altogether different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 This is an interesting way of looking at it. I have one quick question to throw in here... Anyone can answer how they see fit. Where exactly does honesty come into play during the deconversion process and, is honesty a reason, an emotion, or something altogether different? Honesty, of what kind and from/to who? I felt the Bible and religion had not been honest with me, so I felt cheated and fooled. And I felt that I needed to be honest with myself, so when faith was gone, the only path to take was to realize it and admit it. If church wasn't honest, at least I should be honest to myself. My honesty to my wife, family, others? I have confessed to my wife and children I'm an agnostic/atheist, and spent some time talking about it. But I have not been honest to my parents and siblings yet. And I don't think I can. I just can't break my dads heart, since he's very sick, and I love my parents. Too much have happened in this family, just for me to lay that burden on him too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caretaker Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 This is a good question. Would you consider me such a person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 QUOTEIs there anyone here that actually was compelled to de-convert based only on rational reasons, and no emotions? Would you consider me such a person? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Only you know the answer to that, Khan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Honesty, of what kind and from/to who? I felt the Bible and religion had not been honest with me, so I felt cheated and fooled. And I felt that I needed to be honest with myself, so when faith was gone, the only path to take was to realize it and admit it. If church wasn't honest, at least I should be honest to myself. My honesty to my wife, family, others? I have confessed to my wife and children I'm an agnostic/atheist, and spent some time talking about it. But I have not been honest to my parents and siblings yet. And I don't think I can. I just can't break my dads heart, since he's very sick, and I love my parents. Too much have happened in this family, just for me to lay that burden on him too. I guess the type of honesty that I'm talking about here would be the self-imposed type. The raw, pure honesty that you embrace regardless of how it affects the indoctrination. This type of honesty starts out simple and builds in complexity the more you use it. Keep in mind though, I'm only talking about the application of this honesty towards the theology. (yes, for once I'm attempting to keep the thread on track. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 I guess the type of honesty that I'm talking about here would be the self-imposed type. The raw, pure honesty that you embrace regardless of how it affects the indoctrination. This type of honesty starts out simple and builds in complexity the more you use it. Keep in mind though, I'm only talking about the application of this honesty towards the theology. (yes, for once I'm attempting to keep the thread on track. ) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't think honesty plays into it when one is confused. You don't know what to be honest about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 I don't think honesty plays into it when one is confused. You don't know what to be honest about. Let me ask a question here, and you be as honest in answering it as you can. It's quite simple actually. Can anyone, or has anyone ever walked on water as described in the bible? Be honest now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caretaker Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Only you know the answer to that, Khan. Well, I don't know if one could call it a true deconversion... I was never a bigtime believer to begin with. Any belief I had went away with Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny. It just took longer to lose the Christian label because I just thought being Christian was The American Thing To Do. I have always been one to solve problems and test my critical thinking. In my late high school years, I begin to realize what it means to be Christian. I discovered that I just did not fit that definition, at least in the sense that I could not believe its teachings without some sort of proof. I realised that all I did was carry a label. So I dropped that label. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 My deconversion to liberal Christianity was based on emotions, but my complete deconversion was based on reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Let me ask a question here, and you be as honest in answering it as you can. It's quite simple actually. Can anyone, or has anyone ever walked on water as described in the bible? Be honest now. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> None other than Christ that I know of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Well, I don't know if one could call it a true deconversion... I was never a bigtime believer to begin with. Any belief I had went away with Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny. It just took longer to lose the Christian label because I just thought being Christian was The American Thing To Do. I have always been one to solve problems and test my critical thinking. In my late high school years, I begin to realize what it means to be Christian. I discovered that I just did not fit that definition, at least in the sense that I could not believe its teachings without some sort of proof. I realised that all I did was carry a label. So I dropped that label. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I am in no way judging your previous time as a Christian but I would definitely put that type of deconversion in a different category than let's say.....Webmaster's deconversion story. Just reading his story and that of some others here, tells me that emotion is a huge part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Some incsects can, and I belive one sort of lizard can as well. Maybe jesus was a lizard or a bug.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Let me ask a question here, and you be as honest in answering it as you can. It's quite simple actually. Can anyone, or has anyone ever walked on water as described in the bible? Be honest now. None other than Christ that I know of. Like I said, I was talking about... The raw, pure honesty that you embrace regardless of how it affects the indoctrination. There is a part of you that knows the answer to that question. The part that knows, knows the difference between belief and truth when it comes to the theology. If you were completely honest with yourself, you would know that nobody has ever walked on water. Until you're completely honest with yourself about this particular question, you are stuck with only a belief. Do ya see how that works? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Some incsects can, and I belive one sort of lizard can as well. Maybe jesus was a lizard or a bug.... <<<reaches through monitor an lightly smacks Vixentrox upside the head>>> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 None other than Christ that I know of. Like I said, I was talking about... There is a part of you that knows the answer to that question. The part that knows, knows the difference between belief and truth when it comes to the theology. If you were completely honest with yourself, you would know that nobody has ever walked on water. Until you're completely honest with yourself about this particular question, you are stuck with only a belief. Do ya see how that works? (Sorry. Couldn't get the quotes to work properly) I'm honest. I can honestly tell you that Jesus walked on water and honestly tell you that I haven't. Back later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Keep in mind though, I'm only talking about the application of this honesty towards the theology. (yes, for once I'm attempting to keep the thread on track. ) Your being to honest about following the topic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 I'm honest. I can honestly tell you that Jesus walked on water and honestly tell you that I haven't. Back later. If you were completely honest with yourself, you would know which part of your comment up there is true, and which part is not. Of course, you do know, you just won't say. Remember, we're talking honesty here. It's not something that's taught in a church or a book that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 It also seems, to me, very very odd to base your deconversion just on emotions. I read a post by Cerise that said she wouldn't care if she was given absolute proof that her faith was false, she would have held onto it if her emotions told her to. That actually scares me. How could you keep believing if you have been given proof that it is false? That goes for all members... Merlin <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And...when exactly did I say this? Tread carefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 And...when exactly did I say this? Tread carefully. I was thinking the same thing when I read that. I saw that, and I was like, this doesn't sound like Cerise to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 The only thing I can find that comes close to it is perhaps this: And truly, I didn't leave Christianity because someone sat down and gave me a perfunctory list of the reasons why I should, or demonstrated scientifically the imporbability of a god, or outlined their thesis on the contradictions of the bible. If I had these things I might have been interested enough to look into what I felt about it, but I would never have left. I did leave because I discovered a passion for justice that (and I'm still working on SOIL believing this) couldn't be satisfied in Christianity, or any current religion I see. Which is why, when I talk to Dennis, he knows not only what I think, but ultimately how I feel towards his religion. He thinks and feels the opposite, that there is a justice to Christianity that cannot be satisfied in a godless world. How we interact is always going to be filled with emotion, because we converse in the place where our passions for justice intersect and then move off into opposite directions. I daresay that's what makes it so interesting. But regardless, no matter how much Dennis thinks about conversion, he won't ever do it unless it feels like the right thing to do. Just like I wouldn't rejoin Chrisitianity unless this passion of mine could be soothed by it. Or maybe this I repeat, I would never have left Christianity if "rational thought" were all that was offered to me upon leaving. Never.Otherwise I could have very simply argued my way out of the whole "justice problem" by very rationally thinking that as I am fallible and human, it would not be my place to solve the world's problems. While both these stress my opinion that rationality was not the driving force behind my deconversion (or maybe the active force is a better description), I really don't see how this implies that I wouldn't care if my religion was proven false. Actually, I rather think it implies that I would care very much and use the information given to decide how I'd feel about remaining in such a dubious faith. And don't see the words "absolute proof" anywhere in either of these quotes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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