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Goodbye Jesus

You're Kidding Me... Right?


webmdave

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Hello Debbie.

 

I've read thru your posts and would like to ask a hypothetical question.

 

If this weren't the US, but Saudi Arabia and you were a devout Muslim, believing in Allah and his prophet, Mohammed, wouldn't you be attributing these supernatural experiences to the work of Iblis, the evil djinn of the Quran? 

 

If not, I'd be interested to hear why think that wouldn't be so.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

???????????????????????

 

 

It's a hypothetical question, Debbie.

 

It asks you to hypothetically suppose the following...

 

1.  That you were born in Saudi Arabia and not America.

2.  That you were raised a Muslim and believe in Allah and not Jesus, in the prophet Mohammed and in the Quran, not the Bible.

3.  That you believe in the invisible, evil spirits (djinn) described in the Quran.

 

Taking these three points into account, I'm asking if you would therefore attribute your supernatural experiences (e.g., the door) to the work of the djinn.  (Yes or No)

 

Please remember when answering, that your frame of reference for understanding this supernatural event is a purely Muslim one.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

p.s.

Btw, if your answer is in the negative I'd be interested to know why that is.

 

Hypothetically if I were raised Muslim and a woman, I do not know if I would have access to read the Quran to be knowledgeable about anything in the book. Any information contained in the Quran would have to come from my male relatives, which I assume would only be the core beliefs of the Islam faith.  Since the djinn is either a good or bad spirit and believed to be able to possess humans, I would think Muslim women would be aware of him and yes, would therefore believe in this genie and attribute supernatural experiences to him.

Now, please tell me what this has to do with my situation, because it certainly was not a genie in a bottle?

 

 

What has my question to do with your situation?

 

This, Debbie.

 

I contend that the culture we are raised in and our religious beliefs profoundly influence the conclusions we arrive at when trying to understand something beyond our normal experiences, i.e., the supernatural. Because your background is a Christian one this predisposes you to interpret such events in terms of Christianity.  Since the Bible speaks of and warns against demons - you therefore see demons.   You readily attribute these supernatural events to their activity because your mind operates exculsively within a Christian frame of reference. 

 

If you were a Muslim you'd interpret things thru a Quranic lens and attest to having seen an evil Djinn.  If you were a Hindu your mind would work within that particular frame of reference and you'd say that you saw a Rakshasa (an unrighteous spirit). Conversely, I think it highly unlikely that a Muslim would think outside their own particular Quranic 'box' and conclude they'd seen a Hindu spirit, as described in the Ramayana. Nor would a Hindu be very likely to think in Christian terms and conclude that they'd seen one of Satan's demons.

 

Now I note that you appear to agree with my contention - that each of us interprets our experiences according to the reference points of our respective cultures and beliefs.  That being so, this prompts me to ask you another question.  You say that you know it wasn't a djinn (genie).

.

.

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How do you know this?.

.

.

.

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

A blacked cloaked figure with red eyes does not sound nor look like a djinn. Being of the Christian faith..........demon.

 

 

Thanks.

 

BAA

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Hi Directionless,

Why is it every time you tell someone about supernatural experiences they want to label it as some sort of mental problem? Every thing in this world does not fit into a cozy little text book description. It's either black or white, there are no grey areas. Some people do not believe in the supernatural, I however do because I have witnessed it. The funny part about that door was my son and I could not get that door open, even with a crow bar, until it blew off the hinges and landed across the room. I put it back on the hinges while I anointed the house, but there was far more activity in the house besides the door. My son and daughter-in-law also witnessed these things and they are die hard skeptics, but it scared them enough to want the house blessed. I knew of some activity, but wanted my family to witness it before I would anoint the house because telling them would not be enough.

That sounds like good evidence to me because you had multiple witnesses and the door remained off the hinges at the end. An investigator could get statements with polygraph tests from all the witnesses.

 

This type of evidence is why I am uncertain.

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Hi Directionless,

Why is it every time you tell someone about supernatural experiences they want to label it as some sort of mental problem? Every thing in this world does not fit into a cozy little text book description. It's either black or white, there are no grey areas. Some people do not believe in the supernatural, I however do because I have witnessed it. The funny part about that door was my son and I could not get that door open, even with a crow bar, until it blew off the hinges and landed across the room. I put it back on the hinges while I anointed the house, but there was far more activity in the house besides the door. My son and daughter-in-law also witnessed these things and they are die hard skeptics, but it scared them enough to want the house blessed. I knew of some activity, but wanted my family to witness it before I would anoint the house because telling them would not be enough.

That sounds like good evidence to me because you had multiple witnesses and the door remained off the hinges at the end. An investigator could get statements with polygraph tests from all the witnesses.

 

This type of evidence is why I am uncertain.

 

Hi Directionless,

Are you saying that because of this type of evidence that is why you are unsure about your faith and God?

Debbie

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Hi Directionless,

Are you saying that because of this type of evidence that is why you are unsure about your faith and God?

Debbie

Mostly this kind of strong evidence from others makes me unsure that my own personal experiences can be explained by hallucinations and delusions. The therapist I was seeing could not identify the type of psychosis, because my symptoms didn't match. I would be fine for months and then I would have a hallucination such as seeing Jesus for a few seconds and then it would end. I would feel more comfortable with the vague psychosis explanation if I could read about other people with similar symptoms.

 

If I accept my experiences as spiritual guidance, then I worry because it must be important for me to do something but I can't figure out what. When I try things they don't work. So I don't know.

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Hi Directionless,

Are you saying that because of this type of evidence that is why you are unsure about your faith and God?

Debbie

Mostly this kind of strong evidence from others makes me unsure that my own personal experiences can be explained by hallucinations and delusions. The therapist I was seeing could not identify the type of psychosis, because my symptoms didn't match. I would be fine for months and then I would have a hallucination such as seeing Jesus for a few seconds and then it would end. I would feel more comfortable with the vague psychosis explanation if I could read about other people with similar symptoms.

 

If I accept my experiences as spiritual guidance, then I worry because it must be important for me to do something but I can't figure out what. When I try things they don't work. So I don't know.

 

Part of being a Christian is walking by faith and not by sight. Sometimes we are shown things to strengthen that faith. It does not always mean we are missing something important, because maybe not that day, but somewhere down the road if we are patient it will be revealed why we saw that vision and that's when you get that, Oh that's why moment. I saw a demon at 36, I am now 55 years old and I still don't know why I saw it, because I have always believed in good and evil, God and His son. It could very well have been to re-enforce what I already knew or to see the face of my enemy so I am aware of what I am dealing with when I go to houses to anoint them for demonic oppression. Every great general studies his enemy and their strategy. But these are only my thoughts and I always rely on prayer to show me the way. I do not feel it's psychosis at all, hallucinations, or delusions.

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"Black cloaked figure with red eyes" could also be a hungry ghost, a strigoi, or a whole slew of other such supernatural critters (kitsune can appear as almost any form they want). How do you know nine-tail foxes weren't messing with your head? I think the kicker here is "being of the Christian faith... demon." Yes. A demon, because of what you believe. If you were in another culture, or believed something differently, you'd have interpreted your experiences differently.

Additionally what do we know about demons? I cant remember a bible verse on how they look. i think our ideas on how demons,angels and satan should look like are mainly shaped by medieval arts.

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Hi Directionless,

Are you saying that because of this type of evidence that is why you are unsure about your faith and God?

Debbie

Mostly this kind of strong evidence from others makes me unsure that my own personal experiences can be explained by hallucinations and delusions. The therapist I was seeing could not identify the type of psychosis, because my symptoms didn't match. I would be fine for months and then I would have a hallucination such as seeing Jesus for a few seconds and then it would end. I would feel more comfortable with the vague psychosis explanation if I could read about other people with similar symptoms.

 

If I accept my experiences as spiritual guidance, then I worry because it must be important for me to do something but I can't figure out what. When I try things they don't work. So I don't know.

 

 

If your experiences WERE spiritual guidance, though, then what kind of an all-loving deity would force someone already struggling to have to "figure it out" in ways that only makes their struggle worse? That's not strengthening you, that's torment.

 

In my experience, there are ten thousand other possible reasons why ___ might happen. It's very easy and convenient to default to "it must be an angel!" because that works within the contexts of our belief system and our culture in which we were born and raised (which is what BAA was getting at). That doesn't make it the "one true answer," though. It just makes it acceptable to us, contextually. Did people really see my grandfather's ghost, or did the story get exaggerated by the tellers? I don't know. I DO know that it makes a much more palatable and comprehensible experience to think that God was providing comfort and my grandfather is in Heaven instead of "Wow, Aunt Neenee was hitting the bottle again hard last night."

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Hi Directionless,

Are you saying that because of this type of evidence that is why you are unsure about your faith and God?

Debbie

Mostly this kind of strong evidence from others makes me unsure that my own personal experiences can be explained by hallucinations and delusions.

 

 

What strong evidence?  I'm guessing that right now there are dozens of gurus alive in India that each have hundreds of followers who will say they have seen their own guru do far more dramatic magic.  The most likely explanation is mundane.

 

Take me as an example.  As a Christian I was convinced that demons would mark my body as I slept.  I would find scrapes and scratches  when I went to take a shower.  It scared the bejebers out of me and I had to pray over myself like crazy but Jesus never made it go away.  I mean what else could it be?  Believing all those Bible stories was shaping my thinking.  Once I became an atheist I figured it out.  I have a high threshold for pain so when I work in the yard I shrug off minor bumps.  I will be working with wood or weeds or whatever and I will just keep going focused on my task.  Since I didn't make note of those little things I wouldn't bother to remember.  That is how I got those "demon attacks".  But really what was more likely - that the rules of the universe were violated so that I could be scratched or that my memory failed me?  These days when I get banged up durning yard work I try to make note of it so the scratches don't scare me later.  I also wear thicker clothing despite the heat.  Wearing full jeans and multiple shirts sure cut down on the scratches.  There are no demons so demon attack is as silly as unicorn attack or fairy attack.

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Why is it every time you tell someone about supernatural experiences they want to label it as some sort of mental problem? 

 

 

Because the human mind is a work in progress.  Perfect sanity is not average; not by a long shot.  Rather is is imperfection that is the norm.  All it takes is for your brain to get a little bit confused and hallucination results.  Our perception of reality is a story that the brain weaves together from all kinds of data.  That is why the human mind is tricked by standard optical illusions, among other things.

 

 

 

 

Every thing in this world does not fit into a cozy little text book description. It's either black or white, there are no grey areas.

 

I strongly disagree.  The world is full of shades of grey.  The human mind desires to classify everything as either black or white because we cannot comprehend everything and need to simplify in order to understand a tiny bit.  That is why black and white thinking is so appealing.

 

 

Some people do not believe in the supernatural, I however do because I have witnessed it. The funny part about that door was my son and I could not get that door open, even with a crow bar, until it blew off the hinges and landed across the room. I put it back on the hinges while I anointed the house, but there was far more activity in the house besides the door. My son and daughter-in-law also witnessed these things and they are die hard skeptics, but it scared them enough to want the house blessed. I knew of some activity, but wanted my family to witness it before I would anoint the house because telling them would not be enough.

 

What explanation would you turn to first if supernatural wasn't valid?  If Richard Dawkins had been there and seen the door guess what explanation he would use for this event.

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Part of being a Christian is walking by faith and not by sight. Sometimes we are shown things to strengthen that faith. It does not always mean we are missing something important, because maybe not that day, but somewhere down the road if we are patient it will be revealed why we saw that vision and that's when you get that, Oh that's why moment. I saw a demon at 36, I am now 55 years old and I still don't know why I saw it, because I have always believed in good and evil, God and His son. It could very well have been to re-enforce what I already knew or to see the face of my enemy so I am aware of what I am dealing with when I go to houses to anoint them for demonic oppression. Every great general studies his enemy and their strategy. But these are only my thoughts and I always rely on prayer to show me the way. I do not feel it's psychosis at all, hallucinations, or delusions.

One of my biggest hurdles to accepting my experiences as spiritual has been a feeling that God would not allow these things to be true. Science makes the universe so beautiful and elegant, but against that we have this clumsy superstitious Christian religion. I would watch the priest in his robes do all his rituals and it just seemed wrong to me. Christianity and science are very different. We would expect them to be similar if they were both made by God. (Of course there are 40,000 different denominations, and I can only say that the denominations I have tried seem wrong.)

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If your experiences WERE spiritual guidance, though, then what kind of an all-loving deity would force someone already struggling to have to "figure it out" in ways that only makes their struggle worse? That's not strengthening you, that's torment.

That's exactly how I felt smile.png

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What strong evidence?  I'm guessing that right now there are dozens of gurus alive in India that each have hundreds of followers who will say they have seen their own guru do far more dramatic magic.  The most likely explanation is mundane.

 

Take me as an example.  As a Christian I was convinced that demons would mark my body as I slept.  I would find scrapes and scratches  when I went to take a shower.  It scared the bejebers out of me and I had to pray over myself like crazy but Jesus never made it go away.  I mean what else could it be?  Believing all those Bible stories was shaping my thinking.  Once I became an atheist I figured it out.  I have a high threshold for pain so when I work in the yard I shrug off minor bumps.  I will be working with wood or weeds or whatever and I will just keep going focused on my task.  Since I didn't make note of those little things I wouldn't bother to remember.  That is how I got those "demon attacks".  But really what was more likely - that the rules of the universe were violated so that I could be scratched or that my memory failed me?  These days when I get banged up durning yard work I try to make note of it so the scratches don't scare me later.  I also wear thicker clothing despite the heat.  Wearing full jeans and multiple shirts sure cut down on the scratches.  There are no demons so demon attack is as silly as unicorn attack or fairy attack.

To clarify, I mean it is strong evidence that there is a mystery and maybe atheism/materialism isn't the whole story. When I say God I mean that very generally.

 

I'm glad you described the demon attacks in more detail. I was curious about that when you mentioned it in an earlier post. I've found it's always good to investigate these things rather than brushing them off, because otherwise they will grow in your imagination.

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Part of being a Christian is walking by faith and not by sight. Sometimes we are shown things to strengthen that faith. It does not always mean we are missing something important, because maybe not that day, but somewhere down the road if we are patient it will be revealed why we saw that vision and that's when you get that, Oh that's why moment. I saw a demon at 36, I am now 55 years old and I still don't know why I saw it, because I have always believed in good and evil, God and His son. It could very well have been to re-enforce what I already knew or to see the face of my enemy so I am aware of what I am dealing with when I go to houses to anoint them for demonic oppression. Every great general studies his enemy and their strategy. But these are only my thoughts and I always rely on prayer to show me the way. I do not feel it's psychosis at all, hallucinations, or delusions.

One of my biggest hurdles to accepting my experiences as spiritual has been a feeling that God would not allow these things to be true. Science makes the universe so beautiful and elegant, but against that we have this clumsy superstitious Christian religion. I would watch the priest in his robes do all his rituals and it just seemed wrong to me. Christianity and science are very different. We would expect them to be similar if they were both made by God. (Of course there are 40,000 different denominations, and I can only say that the denominations I have tried seem wrong.)

 

A lot of churches have fancy rituals and they were created by man for man especially the catholic church. Clergy has stepped away from God and some churches follow man made laws instead of God's; which makes it very difficult for people who are new to the faith. Is it any surprise that people turn from the church and seek other means to understand where they come from, etc. This is the age we live in.

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A lot of churches have fancy rituals and they were created by man for man especially the catholic church. 

 

 

Not just a lot.  The only exceptions are the religious movements started by women for people.  Every single church was started by a human for humans.

 

 

 

Clergy has stepped away from God and some churches follow man made laws instead of God's; which makes it very difficult for people who are new to the faith. Is it any surprise that people turn from the church and seek other means to understand where they come from, etc. This is the age we live in.

 

What God?  How do you step away from something that isn't there?  Every single law is made by humans.  No exceptions.  Turning away from church is a good idea because believing delusion does bad things to people.

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"Black cloaked figure with red eyes" could also be a hungry ghost, a strigoi, or a whole slew of other such supernatural critters (kitsune can appear as almost any form they want). How do you know nine-tail foxes weren't messing with your head? I think the kicker here is "being of the Christian faith... demon." Yes. A demon, because of what you believe. If you were in another culture, or believed something differently, you'd have interpreted your experiences differently.

Yep, you are totally correct.

 

 

So you can't really know what this cloaked figure with the red eyes was. You can only assume.

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"Black cloaked figure with red eyes" could also be a hungry ghost, a strigoi, or a whole slew of other such supernatural critters (kitsune can appear as almost any form they want). How do you know nine-tail foxes weren't messing with your head? I think the kicker here is "being of the Christian faith... demon." Yes. A demon, because of what you believe. If you were in another culture, or believed something differently, you'd have interpreted your experiences differently.

Yep, you are totally correct.

 

 

So you can't really know what this cloaked figure with the red eyes was. You can only assume.

 

I don't believe in UFO's, Greek Mythology, Pixie's, or any other fantasy creatures, so I guess I'm calling it a demon.

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"Black cloaked figure with red eyes" could also be a hungry ghost, a strigoi, or a whole slew of other such supernatural critters (kitsune can appear as almost any form they want). How do you know nine-tail foxes weren't messing with your head? I think the kicker here is "being of the Christian faith... demon." Yes. A demon, because of what you believe. If you were in another culture, or believed something differently, you'd have interpreted your experiences differently.

Yep, you are totally correct.

 

 

So you can't really know what this cloaked figure with the red eyes was. You can only assume.

 

I don't believe in UFO's, Greek Mythology, Pixie's, or any other fantasy creatures, so I guess I'm calling it a demon.

 

 

 

What if I believe in UFOs, so therefore I call my experiences "aliens"? (<-- insert meme here)

 

Again, this is something contextualized within your assumptions based on your belief system. That may make it a "real" experience to you, personally. But it does not make it a fact. 

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"Black cloaked figure with red eyes" could also be a hungry ghost, a strigoi, or a whole slew of other such supernatural critters (kitsune can appear as almost any form they want). How do you know nine-tail foxes weren't messing with your head? I think the kicker here is "being of the Christian faith... demon." Yes. A demon, because of what you believe. If you were in another culture, or believed something differently, you'd have interpreted your experiences differently.

Yep, you are totally correct.

 

 

So you can't really know what this cloaked figure with the red eyes was. You can only assume.

 

I don't believe in UFO's, Greek Mythology, Pixie's, or any other fantasy creatures, so I guess I'm calling it a demon.

 

 

 

What if I believe in UFOs, so therefore I call my experiences "aliens"? (<-- insert meme here)

 

Again, this is something contextualized within your assumptions based on your belief system. That may make it a "real" experience to you, personally. But it does not make it a fact. 

 

Yep it's according to my belief system.

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I don't believe in UFO's, Greek Mythology, Pixie's, or any other fantasy creatures, so I guess I'm calling it a demon.

 

 

silverpenny013Hmmm.gif   Why would you call it a demon if you don't believe in fantasy creatures?

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UFOs are a good example. There is some good quality evidence for a mystery, but skeptics are too certain of their skeptical beliefs to invest the effort of educating themselves. That's no different from a fundamentalist Christian that dismisses evolution without bothering to learn about it.

 

That door flying off the hinges in front of multiple witnesses can only be two things: something weird or a hoax. Just because evidence doesn't fit neatly into the existing model of reality and is difficult to study in a laboratory does not mean we should ignore and ridicule that evidence IMO.

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"Black cloaked figure with red eyes" could also be a hungry ghost, a strigoi, or a whole slew of other such supernatural critters (kitsune can appear as almost any form they want). How do you know nine-tail foxes weren't messing with your head? I think the kicker here is "being of the Christian faith... demon." Yes. A demon, because of what you believe. If you were in another culture, or believed something differently, you'd have interpreted your experiences differently.

Yep, you are totally correct.

 

 

So you can't really know what this cloaked figure with the red eyes was. You can only assume.

 

I don't believe in UFO's, Greek Mythology, Pixie's, or any other fantasy creatures, so I guess I'm calling it a demon.

 

but how can it confirm your belief or be a sign if you understand that you interpreted the things you saw according to your belief? that would be circular reasoning. like i posted before a good example are near-death-experiences. people see a light and feel calm. christian interpretate it as heaven and other people according to their beliefs, if a christian knows he interpreted this experience only as "heaven" because of his belief ,how can he claim he saw heaven? he only can say he saw light and seeing light cant assure his belief about heaven.

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I don't believe in UFO's, Greek Mythology, Pixie's, or any other fantasy creatures, so I guess I'm calling it a demon.

 

 

silverpenny013Hmmm.gif   Why would you call it a demon if you don't believe in fantasy creatures?

 

Because it's not a fantasy creature.

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I don't believe in UFO's, Greek Mythology, Pixie's, or any other fantasy creatures, so I guess I'm calling it a demon.

 

 

silverpenny013Hmmm.gif   Why would you call it a demon if you don't believe in fantasy creatures?

 

Because it's not a fantasy creature.

 

 

 

Show me a photograph of one.  How about a video?  What is the average weight for an adult demon?  What do they typically weigh when young?  Do they have genders like most other creatures?  What do they eat?  What is their natural habitat?  What is the average live span within the demon population?  How big is that population?  Do they come in different species or sub-species?  You can, of course, produce the remains of a dead member?  What did they evolve from?

 

These questions are no trouble for real creatures.  However fantasy creatures will require made up answers.

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"Black cloaked figure with red eyes" could also be a hungry ghost, a strigoi, or a whole slew of other such supernatural critters (kitsune can appear as almost any form they want). How do you know nine-tail foxes weren't messing with your head? I think the kicker here is "being of the Christian faith... demon." Yes. A demon, because of what you believe. If you were in another culture, or believed something differently, you'd have interpreted your experiences differently.

Yep, you are totally correct.

 

 

So you can't really know what this cloaked figure with the red eyes was. You can only assume.

 

I don't believe in UFO's, Greek Mythology, Pixie's, or any other fantasy creatures, so I guess I'm calling it a demon.

 

 

 

What if I believe in UFOs, so therefore I call my experiences "aliens"? (<-- insert meme here)

 

Again, this is something contextualized within your assumptions based on your belief system. That may make it a "real" experience to you, personally. But it does not make it a fact. 

 

Yep it's according to my belief system.

 

Oh, hey, well, problem solved, then. Belief is all culturally relative, as you say, so no one side has better proof than the other. Why try to foist beliefs on others, then? If there's no harm done, there's no need to mess with what other's believe, or look down on them. The only motive, would be Hell, then, which, as stated, along with the aforesaid demons, is a belief, and therefore relative to cultural upbringing, rather than provably more factual - so... we're left with straight-up cultural chauvinism, one way or another... It's... um, problematic, at best.

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"Black cloaked figure with red eyes" could also be a hungry ghost, a strigoi, or a whole slew of other such supernatural critters (kitsune can appear as almost any form they want). How do you know nine-tail foxes weren't messing with your head? I think the kicker here is "being of the Christian faith... demon." Yes. A demon, because of what you believe. If you were in another culture, or believed something differently, you'd have interpreted your experiences differently.

Yep, you are totally correct.

 

 

So you can't really know what this cloaked figure with the red eyes was. You can only assume.

 

I don't believe in UFO's, Greek Mythology, Pixie's, or any other fantasy creatures, so I guess I'm calling it a demon.

 

 

 

What if I believe in UFOs, so therefore I call my experiences "aliens"? (<-- insert meme here)

 

Again, this is something contextualized within your assumptions based on your belief system. That may make it a "real" experience to you, personally. But it does not make it a fact. 

 

Yep it's according to my belief system.

 

Oh, hey, well, problem solved, then. Belief is all culturally relative, as you say, so no one side has better proof than the other. Why try to foist beliefs on others, then? If there's no harm done, there's no need to mess with what other's believe, or look down on them. The only motive, would be Hell, then, which, as stated, along with the aforesaid demons, is a belief, and therefore relative to cultural upbringing, rather than provably more factual - so... we're left with straight-up cultural chauvinism, one way or another... It's... um, problematic, at best.

 

I guess I could of used the word entity instead of demon.

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