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Goodbye Jesus

Worship


Antlerman

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There was some brief discussion of this in another thread where someone made the age old statement we heard from our grandmothers that, "He created us to glorify him". and that, "He desires worship" (see link) But what is that really? What defines what worship is, and why do humans do it? There are many things that can be called worship. But they boil down to an act of human devotion, whether in rituals, customs, rites, or in personal acts of prayer and emotional outpourings. I'll focus mainly on the act of the personal devotion, though certainly the rest is part of it.

 

Certainly, logically if there was a literal, living, thinking deity who actually created people and actively had a desire to be the recipient of worship it would seem a bit egotistical, and not altogether consistent with Love which is Selfless. But if you were to say this god wants humans to do this because of the benefit they derive from it, then it still would seem a bit inappropriate to make himself the recipient of it again. It would be like telling your children to bow before you because there's a benefit to them to not just focus on themselves. One would hope there was some form of instruction to them to be mindful of others which didn't use oneself to them in that way. Logically a god, if he were loving would not desire worship, but to give love instead; nor would he instruct them to worship him for their sake since that itself is against the nature of Love. I say all this to point out the fallacy in anyone thinking literally about this.

 

I tend to look at God as being the image of man, which includes many facets of who we are as humans. So when we hear "God" say, he wants to be worshiped, to me what I hear is man saying he wants to, or should worship this "God". Why? What compels humans to want their god to want them to worship? Is the absolute emptying of one's own will or sense of self in devotion to an external thing something healthy?

 

What I personally hear is a reaching for a sense of self by externalizing what is inside of them and praying to it, or esteeming it as of greatest ideals. Devotion to it, becomes an affirmation of self, a focus of self, in the object of God. I tend to see the relationship between man and his god as one of finding faith in themselves through their faith and devotion to their god, and that the questionable side of this is when the object of worship defines the entire act as the goal. It's at this point that rather than being an object of inspiration to aspire beyond our selves to a greater realization of our potentials in life, it becomes the end of that devotion and is now a religion as opposed to a path, or a faith. But then, do all people care to move beyond the symbols to the end and find themselves in the face of "God", and would the lack of such objects benefit or dismay them?

 

If worship is to help man, then I believe he is capable of becoming that "God" and no longer needing it.

 

Thoughts?

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Very well put together argument. I honestly don't have anything to add or detract right now. Go you!

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Thoughts?

 

Um, not really.. this paragraph of your's pretty much sums up what I was going to say :HaHa:

 

What I personally hear is a reaching for a sense of self by externalizing what is inside of them and praying to it, or esteeming it as of greatest ideals. Devotion to it, becomes an affirmation of self, a focus of self, in the object of God. I tend to see the relationship between man and his god as one of finding faith in themselves through their faith and devotion to their god, and that the questionable side of this is when the object of worship defines the entire act as the goal. It's at this point that rather than being an object of inspiration to aspire beyond our selves to a greater realization of our potentials in life, it becomes the end of that devotion and is now a religion as opposed to a path, or a faith. But then, do all people care to move beyond the symbols to the end and find themselves in the face of "God", and would the lack of such objects benefit or dismay them?

 

Thats what I'm pretty sure a god is, an externalized set of ideas, virtues, or facets of the physical universe given an anthropomorphized face. That was true for me at least. So then when you are worshiping aren't you looking inward? Introspection and meditation are good insofar as they are seen for what they are. If people mistake their cultural mores and personal thoughts for omnipotent gods....well thats not a good thing.

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Antlerman said "Is the absolute emptying of one's own will or sense of self in devotion to an external thing something healthy?

 

What I personally hear is a reaching for a sense of self by externalizing what is inside of them and praying to it, or esteeming it as of greatest ideals. Devotion to it, becomes an affirmation of self, a focus of self, in the object of God. I tend to see the relationship between man and his god as one of finding faith in themselves through their faith and devotion to their god, and that the questionable side of this is when the object of worship defines the entire act as the goal. It's at this point that rather than being an object of inspiration to aspire beyond our selves to a greater realization of our potentials in life, it becomes the end of that devotion and is now a religion as opposed to a path, or a faith. But then, do all people care to move beyond the symbols to the end and find themselves in the face of "God", and would the lack of such objects benefit or dismay them?"

 

WOW AM that is very much what I have been coming to understand.

 

That is an amazing post. What I see so much in my own life is how arrogant I became thru my 'worship' of God as externalized. Until I could see this your post would have sounded wrong to me, as if you are worshipping yourself as arrogance. But in fact, when seen thru the right eyes, your post is true humility expressed in worship.

 

I dont know if that made sense but I loved your post.

 

sojourner

 

ps I could have underlined the whole quote haha

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What I personally hear is a reaching for a sense of self by externalizing what is inside of them and praying to it, or esteeming it as of greatest ideals. Devotion to it, becomes an affirmation of self, a focus of self, in the object of God.

 

Yes, I think that the ego or "self" wants to continue at all costs and I think that "worship" is an aspect or expression of this fact.

 

I tend to see the relationship between man and his god as one of finding faith in themselves through their faith and devotion to their god, and that the questionable side of this is when the object of worship defines the entire act as the goal. It's at this point that rather than being an object of inspiration to aspire beyond our selves to a greater realization of our potentials in life, it becomes the end of that devotion and is now a religion as opposed to a path, or a faith. But then, do all people care to move beyond the symbols to the end and find themselves in the face of "God", and would the lack of such objects benefit or dismay them?

 

I don't think most people want to face up to this. They want something more - they want concrete, outside objects, whether they be gods, other human beings or something else tangible to focus on. Maybe that is why, at least in christianity, humans are considered hopelessly corrupted and sinful. That would be an absolute block to "finding themselves in the face of "God".

 

If worship is to help man, then I believe he capable of becoming that "God" and no longer needing it.

 

Agreed. Antlerman, your post is very thoughtful and well written.

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Guest Net Eng

Certainly, logically if there was a literal, living, thinking deity who actually created people and actively had a desire to be the recipient of worship it would seem a bit egotistical, and not altogether consistent with Love which is Selfless. But if you were to say this god wants humans to do this because of the benefit they derive from it, then it still would seem a bit inappropriate to make himself the recipient of it again. It would be like telling your children to bow before you because there's a benefit to them to not just focus on themselves. One would hope there was some form of instruction to them to be mindful of others which didn't use oneself to them in that way. Logically a god, if he were loving would not desire worship, but to give love instead; nor would he instruct them to worship him for their sake since that itself is against the nature of Love. I say all this to point out the fallacy in anyone thinking literally about this.

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Well said Antlerman.

 

Egotistical indeed! I had questioned my pastor of why god would need worship from such flawed and evil creatures such as humans. The response was not impressive. IMHO, The god construct is then used by those who wish to be in power to control those who seek comfort in the absolute of faith.

 

Hope my anger doesn't show to much here.

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What I see so much in my own life is how arrogant I became thru my 'worship' of God as externalized. Until I could see this your post would have sounded wrong to me, as if you are worshipping yourself as arrogance. But in fact, when seen thru the right eyes, your post is true humility expressed in worship.

 

I dont know if that made sense but I loved your post.

 

sojourner

You really get it. Thank you. You absolutely see it. It’s not arrogance at all, but the complete opposite. It’s a realization that you are part of it. When you realize that, there is no room for arrogance. Arrogance comes when you assume yourself to be somehow separated from it, and you try to define yourself in the face of that through claims of some odd special status, i.e. “saved”. It’s like I said in another thread, marriage is to become one. It's transcending separation into full marriage.

 

I tend to see the relationship between man and his god as one of finding faith in themselves through their faith and devotion to their god, and that the questionable side of this is when the object of worship defines the entire act as the goal. It's at this point that rather than being an object of inspiration to aspire beyond our selves to a greater realization of our potentials in life, it becomes the end of that devotion and is now a religion as opposed to a path, or a faith. But then, do all people care to move beyond the symbols to the end and find themselves in the face of "God", and would the lack of such objects benefit or dismay them?

 

I don't think most people want to face up to this. They want something more - they want concrete, outside objects, whether they be gods, other human beings or something else tangible to focus on. Maybe that is why, at least in christianity, humans are considered hopelessly corrupted and sinful. That would be an absolute block to "finding themselves in the face of "God".

I can see devoting a whole topic to just this point alone, in fact I may do that (or it could be this one). It’s always been a difficulty for me to relate to this. Honestly Deva, I think that what you see here on this site is people who weren’t satisfied with those bridles that organized religion throws on people so they feel “safe” in the boundaries, but were looking for more. Some turn to other forms of spirituality, some to science and reason, other’s like me to whatever that might be… :grin: . But the point is we’re looking.

 

But on the Bell Curve (standard normal distribution curve), I think we tend to be on the slopes and not the center bulge. Most folks want to just be happy, to feel safe and secure, to know where to go, what to say, and what’s expected. That’s where religion comes in. But for people like us, it doesn’t work. It’s offerings are thin and it fails to speak to us. So it seems it’s a conundrum. On one hand you have those who broke the system to start a new faith, then that faith became the system, then you have new voices that break that system, etc. It’s the slopes the keep the evolution going. Long conversation to have…

 

Egotistical indeed! I had questioned my pastor of why god would need worship from such flawed and evil creatures such as humans. The response was not impressive. IMHO, The god construct is then used by those who wish to be in power to control those who seek comfort in the absolute of faith.

 

Hope my anger doesn't show to much here.

There is definitely that. But there's a market for them, and they fill that demand by making God become what the people want (see what I just said above this). It's all a big conundrum to me. It's language to inspire on one hand (if taken loosely and not literally), yet is the voice of institutional religion on the other hand, and consequently antithetical to it's original purpose - which doesn't appeal to the masses! It's a conundrum.

 

I'll chew on this for awhile more.

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As a still not deconverted Christian, there are parts of what has been propsed that I agree with and parts I do not (but what else is knew?).

 

I do believe that God exists and that He is a being who exists both within and outside of ourselves. That is the difference in a nutshell.

 

However, I do not believe that worship is for the benefit of God, but for the benefit of man. In fact, it gets down to the whole purpose for man and the process that we are all involved in. Please bear with the Bible references and try to resist the old "but how do you know that what men wrote in the Bible is the truth" thing. I do not make light of those concerns, but just ask for the sake of expedience that we are able to set it aside for now.

 

As I understand it, God created man to be in His image and His likeness. I do not believe that Adam was the result of this plan of God. He was just the lump of clay that God started with. I do not know why God did not create man already in His image and likeness, but He did not. (For example, God certainly possessed a knowledge of good and evil which Adam did not before the fall). Instead, He started with a lower form and challenges us to come up higher and become like Him.

 

1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

 

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

 

We worship because as we behold Him, we go through a metamorphosus into that image that we see. It takes our view of ourselves off the physical and the natural and the temporal. Instead we see the spiritual and the eternal.

 

I cannot answer why it is this way or how it works or why God did it this way. This is just how I believe that it is. This is what I mean by spiritually minded. It means that we give our attention to a Spiritual God so we can realize our spiritual self. The opposite is to be carnally minded where we only see our physical selves and fail to be conformed to His image.

 

John

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I do believe that God exists and that He is a being who exists both within and outside of ourselves.

 

So, that's just 'in everything' then...

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I can see devoting a whole topic to just this point alone, in fact I may do that (or it could be this one). It’s always been a difficulty for me to relate to this. Honestly Deva, I think that what you see here on this site is people who weren’t satisfied with those bridles that organized religion throws on people so they feel “safe” in the boundaries, but were looking for more. Some turn to other forms of spirituality, some to science and reason, other’s like me to whatever that might be… :grin: . But the point is we’re looking.

 

Yes, I speak for myself only, of course, but I'm looking. I am always examining myself and the world around me. It seems to be unusual. There is also a devotional part to me which I am trying to understand. I have come to realize that there is no god "out there" but the tendency to worship remains.

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Yes, I speak for myself only, of course, but I'm looking. I am always examining myself and the world around me. It seems to be unusual. There is also a devotional part to me which I am trying to understand. I have come to realize that there is no god "out there" but the tendency to worship remains.

I think this kicks ass Deva. It strikes me as being so damn honest.

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However, I do not believe that worship is for the benefit of God, but for the benefit of man. In fact, it gets down to the whole purpose for man and the process that we are all involved in. Please bear with the Bible references and try to resist the old "but how do you know that what men wrote in the Bible is the truth" thing. I do not make light of those concerns, but just ask for the sake of expedience that we are able to set it aside for now.

 

John

What benefits? You claim that God demands us to worship him for our benefit, that it's important for humans to take our view off the psychical and place them on the "spiritual", but you don't explain what benefits we're supposed to gain from this or why it's important for humans to live in a fantasy world instead of in reality. If humans really benefited from worshiping God, then there would be a clear difference between the lives of believers and the lives of unbelievers, but there is no evidence that there is a difference whatsoever. Christians face all the same problems as non-Christians do and suffer just as much as we do. In fact, didn't Jesus say that Christians were supposed to suffer more, that it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone to enter the Kingdom of heaven? So, I don't get where in the bible it says we're supposed to gain anything for our own personal benefit from worshiping God when the whole purpose of worship is to glorify somebody else. And if we were supposed to gain any special benefit from worshiping God, then why did we fall away from God? Surely if we were to gain any benefits from worshiping God nobody would ever fall away because we would automatically have an advantage over non-believers? But we did fall away in spite of worshiping God, so what good was this "benefit" from God to us?

 

And if you want my honest opinion, personally, I feel like I'm much healthier mentally-wise than when I was a Christian. I still struggle with depression and sometimes that annoying Pascal Wager's kicks back in, but I feel like as a whole, I'm much better off than when I was worshiping God because I now can realize that I do have self-worth without an invisible sky daddy, I no longer feel like that when bad things happen, God is punishing me for being a sinner and that it's automatically my fault, but I accept that sometimes in life shit happens. I no longer constantly feel like everything is worthless because I'm going to hell since I no longer believer in hell, and even the way I interact with people feels different. Like before I used to always wonder if people hated me behind my back and I was always shy and hated socializing with people, but while I'm still somewhat shy, I no longer bother worrying if people hate me or not, because I use my same critical approach to the existence of God with real life, and realize that unless I have evidence that people hate me, there's no point in worrying about whether they do or not. Of course I'm not trying to say everything in my life is perfect and that I'm completely free from any problems, but I feel like I can approach life better without worshiping God, so what exactly were these benefits we were supposed to be getting again?

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What I personally hear is a reaching for a sense of self by externalizing what is inside of them and praying to it, or esteeming it as of greatest ideals. Devotion to it, becomes an affirmation of self, a focus of self, in the object of God.

 

Exactly! God is the ultimate Mary Sue. For those who don't know, A Mary Sue is an idealized self-insert by an author, usually unwittingly into a fan fiction, although there are identified Mary Sues in published works. The term came about because of a Star Trek fan fiction with an ensign Mary Sue who was annoyingly beautiful and repeatedly saved everyone on the Enterprise.

 

When people self-insert, they usually do not know what they are doing. The same is true for religion. They are really making their own ideals and aspirations into a figure -- God -- and worshipping that. In essence, they are worshipping what they see as the best possible parts of themselves. But people do not realize that because religion is culturally acceptable, and in most places, the norm.

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Amethyst that rocked in my opinion. Thanks! :3:

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What I personally hear is a reaching for a sense of self by externalizing what is inside of them and praying to it, or esteeming it as of greatest ideals. Devotion to it, becomes an affirmation of self, a focus of self, in the object of God.

 

Exactly! God is the ultimate Mary Sue. For those who don't know, A Mary Sue is an idealized self-insert by an author, usually unwittingly into a fan fiction, although there are identified Mary Sues in published works. The term came about because of a Star Trek fan fiction with an ensign Mary Sue who was annoyingly beautiful and repeatedly saved everyone on the Enterprise.

 

When people self-insert, they usually do not know what they are doing. The same is true for religion. They are really making their own ideals and aspirations into a figure -- God -- and worshipping that. In essence, they are worshipping what they see as the best possible parts of themselves. But people do not realize that because religion is culturally acceptable, and in most places, the norm.

Basically it's projection of narcissism and self-indulgence to a (in their mind justifiable) fantasy character. But man, does it feel good not to have to project anymore... :HaHa:

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Basically it's projection of narcissism and self-indulgence to a (in their mind justifiable) fantasy character. But man, does it feel good not to have to project anymore... :HaHa:

:lmao: You're looking fine from out here too Hans. :3:

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Exactly! God is the ultimate Mary Sue. For those who don't know, A Mary Sue is an idealized self-insert by an author, usually unwittingly into a fan fiction, although there are identified Mary Sues in published works. The term came about because of a Star Trek fan fiction with an ensign Mary Sue who was annoyingly beautiful and repeatedly saved everyone on the Enterprise.
I never thought of it that way but it makes sense to me, Amethyst. What's funny though is that I have Christian friends who hate Mary Sues in fanfiction and find them to be annoying, but they have no problems with worshiping God even though God has all the same traits of a Mary Sue. Even as a Christian though, Jesus was always my least favorite bible character because he was always so perfect which made him seem unapproachable to me. Supposedly God came to Earth in human form as Jesus to take on our sins and sufferings, but I was just never able to relate to Jesus because he was always so perfect, and I always found people who acted perfect and knew they were perfect to be obnoxious in general.
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I think brother Jeff, as Kryastt the Lard, said it quite succinctly : "I luv you. worship me or I'll fuck you up."

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:lmao: You're looking fine from out here too Hans. :3:

Except for when I share my photo...

 

Honesty is when you finally can say that you love yourself and don't have to pretend anymore. No God/Me copy needed. Maybe the whole "love thy neighbor as yourself" really should say "love God as yourself", in the sense of "God is you".

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I think brother Jeff, as Kryastt the Lard, said it quite succinctly : "I luv you. worship me or I'll fuck you up."

If God is you, the "fuck yourself" suddenly start having some meaning. :)

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:lmao: You're looking fine from out here too Hans. :3:

Except for when I share my photo...

 

Honesty is when you finally can say that you love yourself and don't have to pretend anymore. No God/Me copy needed. Maybe the whole "love thy neighbor as yourself" really should say "love God as yourself", in the sense of "God is you".

That kind of talk used to rile me up. When I was a pantheist all of nature was the object of my worship.

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That kind of talk used to rile me up. When I was a pantheist all of nature was the object of my worship.

Worship is to me now, just a matter of living in the present, enjoy what life gives, be in awe for the amazing world, and be happy and content that I do exist right now and can have all these experiences. By being a human, in its fullest, I aim for a better tomorrow, and that is how I praise my "God", both myself and the universe I exist in.

 

Christian worship, isn't worthy to be called worship, but rather whore-ship, they praise their fantasy God in exchange for the "blessings" they get (or think they get). And yet, at the end of the day, they still pat their own shoulders and say "such a good Christian I was today... praising God for a whole 3 hours... he must love me most of all the members in Church."

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I do believe that God exists and that He is a being who exists both within and outside of ourselves. That is the difference in a nutshell.

 

However, I do not believe that worship is for the benefit of God, but for the benefit of man. In fact, it gets down to the whole purpose for man and the process that we are all involved in. Please bear with the Bible references and try to resist the old "but how do you know that what men wrote in the Bible is the truth" thing. I do not make light of those concerns, but just ask for the sake of expedience that we are able to set it aside for now.

 

As I understand it, God created man to be in His image and His likeness. I do not believe that Adam was the result of this plan of God. He was just the lump of clay that God started with. I do not know why God did not create man already in His image and likeness, but He did not. (For example, God certainly possessed a knowledge of good and evil which Adam did not before the fall). Instead, He started with a lower form and challenges us to come up higher and become like Him.

 

1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

 

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

 

We worship because as we behold Him, we go through a metamorphosus into that image that we see. It takes our view of ourselves off the physical and the natural and the temporal. Instead we see the spiritual and the eternal.

I’d like to talk with you about this John. Where to begin? I’m going to go back to my opening post. The entire 2nd paragraph dealt with how these things cannot be taken as strictly literal, because of the inherent contradiction in themes about God. So what we’re really left with is metaphor, understood "loosely" as saying something.

 

You have made an interesting twist on the traditional look at the Creation and Fall of man, placing Adam's full creation in the image of God at some future point altogether, where the myth of the fall (in many cultures) has man starting in a state of Oneness, entering from there into a world of life and death. The theme of the rest of the myth is to express that human desire to return to that state of perfected oneness. Yet nonetheless, the theme is still there. You see worship as a means to become “made in the image of God”.

 

See my comments here to this from the OP: “ What I personally hear is a reaching for a sense of self by externalizing what is inside of them and praying to it, or esteeming it as of greatest ideals. Devotion to it, becomes an affirmation of self, a focus of self, in the object of God.” God is our externalized desire and object of focus for unity, hope, love, peace, perfection, etc, symbolized by the Garden before the Fall where man was naked and walked with God. The story isn’t a literal story, but representative of something in the hearts and thoughts of humans.

 

Now to your thoughts about how God exists both within and outside of us: This is an interesting thought for me, and has been for some time. Bear with me on this. I’m going to explore some thoughts.

 

Of course I see “God” as an expression of something human; an expression of something perceived inside and outside. It’s something that I would call “impressions” in concert with “expressions” in perceptions of self and the world; of self looking reflexively inward from an imagined point outside itself, and looking outwardly from self to its relationship to the world it sees itself living within. It’s this action or rather impulse to relate that creates this sense, or recognition of one’s own identity in this internal and external relationship. In other words: Awareness.

 

Now my feelings are that underlying this, what drives it in no small way is the impulse toward Beauty, or the aesthetic in the human experience. (I’m excluding religion in these thoughts, as that is about social order and control, rather than the impulse that drove the faith to begin with before it becomes adopted by society to that other end). It’s the sense of response to the universe itself that speaks of a certain “personality”, if you will. It’s the internal response to Beauty projected back out to it in a human expression of “love”, or embrace of “Life”. In the strictest sense, it is part of us, and we part of it. We see ourselves in it and it in us.

 

That brings this back to your point, and to my thoughts, how that all mythologies are simply created languages to express this underlying relationship. It’s our face and nature’s face as we see it expressed in sign and metaphor. The myth becomes the music of the dance as we take queues from our Partner, as it were – Life. There is not only one score, or one piece of music, but many, each with new melodies with which to respond to the impulse of our hearts in the dance with life. Social order wants to control what songs are allowed, but each song is created by humans for them to dance to, and all humans live in this relationship.

 

I cannot answer why it is this way or how it works or why God did it this way. This is just how I believe that it is. This is what I mean by spiritually minded. It means that we give our attention to a Spiritual God so we can realize our spiritual self. The opposite is to be carnally minded where we only see our physical selves and fail to be conformed to His image.

I’d like you to consider something John, that our physical sense is part of our overall spiritual sense. To me, to become whole, to return to that state of “unity” that drives all myths expressing that, is to become fully Aware; to become married, in body, mind, and sprit (using that division). Your focus on “carnally minded” is something I’ve always found misplaced. It does have merit in one context, but not in the sense I hear you (and others) have used it. To be carnally minded is to loose sight of that sense of beauty that I believes underlies all things living. It’s allowing yourself to be distracted and focused strictly internally in fear, and loosing sight of that relationship I went to lengths to describe above.

 

I have concern that I hear your use of the term “carnally minded” as one focused on codes of conduct and adherence to 'correct thinking'. Legalism is the dead opposite of spirituality. "Salvation" is being saved from religion to life, or that dance.

 

 

That’s a lot of thoughts for now, but there’s much more I want to talk about later in this thread. I’ll probably move this up to the Coliseum forum later to keep it preserved as a serious discussion, if there are no objections.

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AM,

 

I have no objection to moving the thread if others are fine with it. I will just comment on one part of your post for now as time is constrained.

 

I have concern that I hear your use of the term “carnally minded†as one focused on codes of conduct and adherence to 'correct thinking'. Legalism is the dead opposite of spirituality. "Salvation" is being saved from religion to life, or that dance.

 

My view of the carnal mind has nothing to do with codes of conduct or legalism. In fact, I agree wholeheartedly that leagalism is opposed to spirituality. To me (like it says in Romans), to be carnally minded is to mind the things of the flesh. In other words, your whole focus is upon what can be observed with the 5 senses only. Many former Christians once were spiritually minded as they were aware of and interacted with the spirit world. However, at one point they chose to only believe what they could see, hear, touch, smell, or taste and no longer took heed to their spirit.

 

My point is that spending time praying or worshipping God focuses us back to the spirit realm so by definition makes us more spiritually minded. It says in Proverbs that as a man sees himself, so is he. God calls us to come up higher and to dwell in the Heavenly realm with Him. This to me is not a physical "rapture" or other nonsense. It is embracing the part of us that is born of God so we no longer live our lives subject to the futility of the physical world and its restraints.

 

We really are all so much more than we know.

 

John

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Many former Christians once were spiritually minded as they were aware of and interacted with the spirit world.

 

Spirit world? The way you talk its like an alternate dimension that you tap into.

 

However, at one point they chose to only believe what they could see, hear, touch, smell, or taste and no longer took heed to their spirit.

 

But it is what you feel right? And how are you feeling these things? My understanding is that the spiritual is what we term the thoughts and emotions (sometimes subconscious) that we can't readily describe in language or mundane terms. This is often expressed in myths, ritual, and metaphor.

 

My point is that spending time praying or worshipping God focuses us back to the spirit realm so by definition makes us more spiritually minded.

 

My thought is that you are not tapping into some other realm or communing with a separate entity but focusing on something internal. What naturally makes you suppose it is the former and not the latter?

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