Worship

[Kratos]

Doc,

 

I do not see the thoughts or emotions as part of the spiritual realm. These are a part of our soul which includes our mind, will, and emotions. It is through the Word that we are able to discern between the soul and the spirit (Heb. 4:12). God desires us to be whole spirit and soul and body (I Thes. 5:23). You can explore the soul or psyche through many natural means, but not so the spirit. I have said all along that salvation involves wholeness in all three realms and it is this third realm where we are the most lacking. IMO

 

Yes, as a man who has been born again in the spirit, there is a part of me that is a part of this spirit realm. But, it also exists outside of me and independent of me.

 

I think one of the main differences in my understanding and that of many other Eastern and New Age thought is I see God as calling us to ascend to a higher realm of being through participation in the spirit realm. I do not believe that this is something that we all already are and just do not know it yet. In fact, other believers in UR will disagree with me on this. I do not believe that we all are already saved spiritually and most just do not know it yet. I do not believe it is about coming to know who we really are, but it is about our becoming who God has predestined us to be.

 

John

[The-Captain]

I see, thanks for replying. I guess it all works from your view, I can't much argue with that.

 

Just one question though.

 

You can explore the soul or psyche through many natural means, but not so the spirit.

 

If not natural means, how then? How are you experiencing the spirit? You said you can discern between soul and spirit, whats the difference? I don't really see that there is one, save what we chose to term it.

[Antlerman]

Many former Christians once were spiritually minded as they were aware of and interacted with the spirit world. However, at one point they chose to only believe what they could see, hear, touch, smell, or taste and no longer took heed to their spirit.

I don't want to spend long on this, but some food for thought on that. Two things: There are Christians who are so immersed in doctrines, the Bible, church, beliefs, etc that they too don't heed their own spirit. It is something I can recognize in those whom I hear their heart on one side, and their theology on the other. It too is a form of rationalism that I feel is motivated by perhaps the same reasons as you may see it is for those who are non, or ex-Christians. Just because someone is religious it does not mean heed their spirit, and just because someone is non-religious it doesn't mean they don't.

 

Speaking only for myself when I was a new ex-Christian, I put up walls around myself to anything that could be construed as 'spiritual', for the real reason of creating a space to shift through the bathwater of everything I'd gone though. "Truth of the spirit" became enmeshed with doctrines and theologies, and strangled in its cords. Coming to a place to sort out "Me", my heart, my voice, in that entanglement of institutionalized "spirituality" required me to actively say "NO!" to any suggestions otherwise. As time has progressed, and a lot of processing later (3700 plus posts here so far over 3 years), I've become more able to sort beyond those other voices to find what speaks more across the board with all aspects of who I am, as a rational and "spiritually" minded person. The point is, don't be too quick to say anyone (here or elsewhere) is no longer listening to what's in their hearts. Some times it's a process of shedding the voices of "packaged truth" in the form of doctrines to learn how to both find and trust your own.

 

BTW, you should really drop the term "spirit world" or "spirit realm". It sounds so, "beyond the grave" like. Something "spiritual" is a part of living beings, not disembodied ones!

 

My point is that spending time praying or worshipping God focuses us back to the spirit realm so by definition makes us more spiritually minded.

And back to my OP. "If worship is to help man, then I believe he is capable of becoming that "God" and no longer needing it." I would argue that as tool of focused prayer, or forms of devotion (worship) it may be helpful, so long as it does not take on a static theology (such as Paulianity, John...) and become an institutionalized set of doctrines. At that point is controls actions from the top down, rather than define them from the bottom up. At that point it fails in its original purpose and becomes something else, a yoke around the neck of individuals (as opposed to the those in the herd). In order to truly be a help to humans, it has to remain non-defined so they can move beyond it to find what it's intended for in the first place - to find "God", or peace, or oneness, or "The Garden", or whatever metaphor you wish to express that with.

 

 

It says in Proverbs that as a man sees himself, so is he. God calls us to come up higher and to dwell in the Heavenly realm with Him. This to me is not a physical "rapture" or other nonsense. It is embracing the part of us that is born of God so we no longer live our lives subject to the futility of the physical world and its restraints.

But you forget the words of Jesus, "The Kingdom of God is amongst you" It's embracing it here in this life, not one to come. Make heaven here.

 

 

We really are all so much more than we know.

Yep. Just got to drop the crutches and walk.

[Kratos]

AM said:

 

But you forget the words of Jesus, "The Kingdom of God is amongst you" It's embracing it here in this life, not one to come. Make heaven here.

 

I asure you, my brother, that I do not forget these words and live to bring them to pass. As I see it, when man fell and died spiritual, the kingdom of this world began to reign on earth and all of the sickness, death, poverty, war, sin, and hatred that we see are the fruit of this kingdom without the higher realm of the spirit in play.

 

Jesus came preaching the Kingdom of God. In essence, He was saying that there is a higher Kingdom in which dwells righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. Yet, He did not just preach this Kingdom which had been lost to man, but He demonstrated the life in the Kingdom and the supremacy of this Kingdom over the world system by healing the sick, cleansing the leapers, casting out devils, raising the dead, and forgiving sinners.

 

He then sent the 12 followed by the 70 telling them to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom and heal, deliver, and set free and say "The Kingdom of God has come to you today".

 

For 2000 years, the church has substituted the gospel of their denominations and the letter of the law for the Gospel of the Kingdom. They have put off the Kingdom for some day after we die or when Jesus comes back. But, Jesus said that the Kingdom is within us and must work its way out of us. We are to pray and believe that His Kingdom would come as His will is done on earth as it is in Heaven.

 

I do not pursue the spiritual realm in hopes of one day going to Heaven. I pursue the Kingdom within so that Heaven can be manifested in this earth. I do it so that sickness and death and war and hatred and sin may all be defeated so that people may live in this earth as they do in Heaven. Christ in us is our hope of glory and we must work out our salvation from the inner man of the spirit through the stubborn carnal mind and out into the physical realm of our bodies and to the rest of the world.

 

That which is seen like sickness and death and war and hatred are temporal, but that which is unseen is eternal. Jesus demonstrated in His own life and ministry that the Kingdom of Heaven (in the spirit realm) can overcome the natural world. Healing in the spirit can overcome sickness in the body. Righteousness in the spirit can overcome sin in the soul. Life in the spirit can overcome spiritual death. Love in the spirit can overcome hatred in the world.

 

It is about an outer realm of darkness being overcome by an inner realm of light. Jesus was the firstborn among many brethren and He came so that many sons would come unto glory. He did what He did for us and we do what we do for others.

 

John

[aspirin99]

How would you expect the influence of natural selection on the development of worship in humanity? I would expect worship to begin with asking, pleading, begging the gods for assistance. Just as you would speak respectfully to anyone from whom you wanted help, anticipatory gratitude turns into worship in the same breath as request.

[Antlerman]

How would you expect the influence of natural selection on the development of worship in humanity? I would expect worship to begin with asking, pleading, begging the gods for assistance. Just as you would speak respectfully to anyone from whom you wanted help, anticipatory gratitude turns into worship in the same breath as request.

Interesting question. I deal with that on this topic here to some extent: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=258319 It deals with bio-cultural feedback loop in promoting those who are more prone to the "dance". I have to give some more thought to it today and I'll offer something more later. I think it may be helpful to define worship a little more too, as it's not just emotional supplications or utter submissiveness. It's all tied into cultural identification as well, as acts of worship there would definitely play into sexual selection, as I mention in the other thread. Those that can perform and adhere well to the forms, get selected for mating. It's no different than in the animal kingdom, but instead of having bright feathers or elaborate dances, our dances take the form of social norms. Bell curve stuff again.

 

 

P.S. You should update you avatar to your new office with those four monitors! Much cooler.

 

P.P.S. Care to have one of our old debates with me now here, 20 years and miles of knowledge later?? We could debate the Trinity again! Gotta keep the swords sharp.

[Amanda]

If worship is to help man, then I believe he is capable of becoming that "God" and no longer needing it.

 

Thoughts?

Antlerman, Yep, that's what I think. If we "worship" aspects that improve ourselves, wouldn't we incorporate those aspects into us? Think of the generational effects that would have...

 

Yet, someone seems to have had the great idea of hurrying the process along, and threw FEAR in there too, to get it done faster. THAT did a lot of damage, IMHO. There are repercussions to every decision, but to exaggerate them to that degree...

 

My question, what did the imposed illusions creating fear do to the worship of the more positive aspects? If I have to be "good" or else, make me be good because I see it as the right thing to do... or moreso because of the consequences if I don't. Maybe the fear aspect neutralized the worship aspect, or worse yet... canceled it out all together?

[Antlerman]

If worship is to help man, then I believe he is capable of becoming that "God" and no longer needing it.

 

Thoughts?

Antlerman, Yep, that's what I think. If we "worship" aspects that improve ourselves, wouldn't we incorporate those aspects into us? Think of the generational effects that would have...

The generational effects would effect our biological evolution. This is how bio-cultural feedback loops do.

 

Yet, someone seems to have had the great idea of hurrying the process along, and threw FEAR in there too, to get it done faster. THAT did a lot of damage, IMHO. There are repercussions to every decision, but to exaggerate them to that degree...

I don't believe it was for the purpose of hurrying the process along. In fact, I'd say it was for entirely different purposes by those who seem entirely disconnected from the more 'spiritual' reasons behind it. It's about control and forced conformity in the institutionalizing of a belief. Forced conformity is not a path to spiritual enlightenment. Fear's only purpose is to put control into the hands of a few over many.

 

 

My question, what did the imposed illusions creating fear do to the worship of the more positive aspects? If I have to be "good" or else, make me be good because I see it as the right thing to do... or moreso because of the consequences if I don't. Maybe the fear aspect neutralized the worship aspect, or worse yet... canceled it out all together?

I would say it pollutes it, and the end result is confusion and dismay of spirit, and consequently it is an imprisoning machine and not a vehicle for freedom of spirit. You may enjoy reading this here about that relationship between the visionaries and the machine: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=357946

[Amanda]

You're great at a debate.

 

I've nothing to contest with your post, and agree with everything you've said.

[insanezenmistress]

Antlerman and others involved. As i am way late for this juicey conversation i will briefly respond to differeing things that i wish i would have had voice in. Starting with a comment to AM ....

 

 

 

" The self looking reflex-ivly inward form an imageaned point outside itself."

 

I pause the word because i might have liked to read it as Reflectivly. That is the word i might have chosen. But, there is not outside itself for th einfinite mind could never reach the end of itself nor it's beginning. SO the search is really for a place of being withinitself as far as i can understand.... or absent form itself .... or Deversification of the energies of itself. er....maybe, i dont know.

 

 

And to Neon something in semi rebutal i'll call a small attempt at a "The Clear Difference Argement" and a "No evidence" proposal.

 

In the lives of those few ( didnt Jesus say only a few would find the kingodm of heaven?) there is a clear difference. People in their imediate aquaintance expericense joy and a better veiw of reality around suhc people. they make us laugh, they help us have greter insight, they bring out the praise of that imaginary god thing out and give them courage during lifes trials. The clear difference between those with the "holy ghostey" are different. Yes their lives share the same sufferings but cirtenly not the same points of veiw or interpretations. Forinstance when i suffered as a christian i would interprete the happenings as lessons or times of meditaiton or times of challange and learning.

 

And to the idea of What is Worship. What is it why is it. When i read parts of AMs and other's thoughts, His self reference made me think of the fact that humans are idolotrious. We do want something to look at and objectivice or laberl ourselves as. and we seek to find others who think our way.(tower of babel ,anyone?) But maybe Worship is not one-sided. It should be veiwed as mutial.

 

We glorify each others. We as humans praise and share creating why not ourselves and god? And the idea of Worship ought to be one of personally getting to know god as you understand him and seek his kingdom..........that would be his life with yours the hope of glory.

 

 

Err......sorry i ment to bo speaking "atheist"

 

 

IZM

[DarthOkkata]

The simple answer is that worship is a result of pack or flock mentality. It's a residual result of the old Alpha-male/female mentality.

 

God is a projection of ourselves, it's a human invention, and made in our image, not the other way around.

 

It's also an unattainable. Something we ourselves can't become, and as such, we feel we should 'look up' to it. We tend to ignore or excuse it's flaws, because it's a 'perfect being beyond our understanding'. We create weird rationalizations for the parts of the idea that don't fit our own morals or ideas about right and wrong.

 

Worship is a result of the need for a 'pack leader', something to be submissive to. All packs have such a leader. When one leader falls, another takes it's place. Humans are more than willing to delude themselves to fit this instinct, even going so far as to suppress other instincts to facilitate it.

 

This is how powerful leaders come into being. Some of the worst examples of this include Stalin, Hitler, and Mussolini. It's not always a bad thing though, as some leaders have positive effects on society. People like Martin Luther King Jr. for example.

 

The problem with putting God in this position, is that God can't really speak to anyone, and as a result, lots and lots of conflicting ideas form. This creates many more problems than it solves.

 

The followers of Gods are delusional, and become unstable and hostile towards other groups. Despite using language that says otherwise in public, they ridicule, and vilify outsiders, claiming that their morals are questionable, and that any ideas they have are dangerous, and incorrect, despite any proof they may have.

 

Worship is instinct, it could be said I worship Tom Brady and Curt Shilling to a certain level. Both men are personal heroes of mine, and I look up to them.

 

That doesn't mean that God isn't a dangerous delusion though. It causes more problems than it solves.

 

The difference between 'worshiping' a sports hero, and worshiping a god, is that my sports heroes did something for me, and they don't tell me what to believe, or at the very least, I'm not inclined to force myself to conform to any such statements they might make. It's kind of nice not having to listen to '1918' anymore, and I'm grateful for what was done by both of those men. I'm not inclined to listen to them for morals, or obey any commands they might give me though either. That doesn't mean I'm not likely to help either one of them out given the opportunity to do so either, within limits of course.

 

God requires that you don't have 'limits' on what you'll do for him. You have to give yourself over completely, and become his slave if you want to be rewarded in the [conveniently unverifiable] next life.

 

God has done nothing for anyone. It can't be proven that it has. God causes more problems, and gives excuses that can't be verified to immoral and manipulative people.

 

God is not an answer for anything. God is a way to be lazy, and not bother with finding out. God is not an explanation, it is something that requires quite a bit of explaining. God is just a way to put off solving problems for yourself. God prevents you from doing things for yourself, because you ask and expect your own imagination to do it for you.

 

God is the biggest thing on this world that prevents progress, self improvement, intelligence, and real morals.

 

George W. Bush is not the greatest divider the US has seen, even though he is a really big one. God is. In fact, I blame the idea of God for making Bush Jr. such an ignorant greedy asshat. Sure, he's got business interest in keeping things going in the Mid east, but it seems more and more like he's trying to run another Crusade, and the oil and money are just tools he's using to keep the secularist business interest on his boat. The man is an insane, disconnected, delusional, moron.

I'm starting to understand why he might like talking to the leader of North Korea, they have so much in common. They both lie about Golf.

 

I really believe that man is trying to start a war with Iran, for no other reason other than to bring about 'Armageddon' for himself and his fellow faithful, or at the very least, turn the mid east into an even bigger chaotic self warring mess.

All by twisting the worst of human instincts against itself.

 

The greatest threat to humanity is it's own imagination. The largest most prolific idea in human imagination is 'God' whatever name you might give him.

 

God is not the great answer, God is the great preventer.

[Ravenwing]

From what I can recall, worship was not actually ABOUT telling God how super specially wonderful He is. THat's just a side effect of coming into the presence of a super specially wonderful God. Worship is about approaching a place of intimacy with God, like a wooing or courtship. But, like everything in an organised culture, it creates patterns and standards. So suddenly worship seems more about standing a certain way, and singing certain songs and saying certani things to God. These are supposed to be a means to getting to intimacy (like meditation gets you to a certain state), not ends in themselves.

 

That makes worship a problem of correct interpretation, rather than of an egomaniacal deity. It paints a picture of a deity that created out of a desire for intimacy, to expand its capacity for love, rather than for servitude or egotripping.

 

The last church I belonged to before I went ex, started teaching how all sorts of things can be acts of worship, like some people connect through art, some through nature, some through acts of service, and some through the tradional methods of singing and praying etc etc.

 

I know I keep posting xtian type things on these boards. I kinda feel the urge to play devil's advocate (strange kind of pun) because everyone already jumps to the slam dunk for the negative. Though I agree with most of it, out of some sense of fairness I still see a need for representation of the positive argument so you know the topic more fully. It's too easy to argue against an egomaniacal Alpha Male God-invention.

[Deva]

I know I keep posting xtian type things on these boards. I kinda feel the urge to play devil's advocate (strange kind of pun) because everyone already jumps to the slam dunk for the negative. Though I agree with most of it, out of some sense of fairness I still see a need for representation of the positive argument so you know the topic more fully. It's too easy to argue against an egomaniacal Alpha Male God-invention.

 

 

You aren't alone Ravenwing. Sometimes I want to do the same thing. No matter how long we have been out of it, Christianity is a part of us. We devoted many years of study and thinking to it and were serious about it.

[Antlerman]

But, like everything in an organised culture, it creates patterns and standards. So suddenly worship seems more about standing a certain way, and singing certain songs and saying certani things to God. These are supposed to be a means to getting to intimacy (like meditation gets you to a certain state), not ends in themselves.

You've just described ritual. I've been wanting for the longest time to start a topic on ritual! It's all part of the same thing. Ritual is a human thing. We do it in society that has nothing to do with religion, yet in its own right it becomes 'religious'. It likewise is part of the whole rite of worship, whether it's going to Mecca for the Haaj and cumbulating the Kaaba, praying 5 times a day, putting your hand on your heart and saying the Pledge of Allegiance, performing funerary rites, etc, it's all part of focus of mind towards an ideal.

 

That makes worship a problem of correct interpretation, rather than of an egomaniacal deity. It paints a picture of a deity that created out of a desire for intimacy, to expand its capacity for love, rather than for servitude or egotripping.

Ultimately it's a human act for ourselves, and we "use" God, frankly. That's an interesting way to look at it. We use God. Sinful bastards, we! (I wonder if he feels cheep afterwards? )

 

The last church I belonged to before I went ex, started teaching how all sorts of things can be acts of worship, like some people connect through art, some through nature, some through acts of service, and some through the tradional methods of singing and praying etc etc.

They were quite close to understanding the human origins of all of it. We are such a fascinating species. Maybe they were a liberal church and did understand that? That we create God and serve God so he can serve us?

 

I know I keep posting xtian type things on these boards. I kinda feel the urge to play devil's advocate (strange kind of pun) because everyone already jumps to the slam dunk for the negative. Though I agree with most of it, out of some sense of fairness I still see a need for representation of the positive argument so you know the topic more fully. It's too easy to argue against an egomaniacal Alpha Male God-invention.

Not to worry of misunderstanding from the likes of me. I understand the motives. I'll play the devil's advocate side as well for the same reasons, or simply I just try to see things from another perspective. It opens you up to bigger understanding than just one simple camp of thought, plus it challenges responses that can easily just sink into rhetoric when everyone always says the same thing. It keeps everyone sharper. It's all about perspectives.

 

But be prepared for it to met with interesting reactions or even accusations of siding with the enemy, etc. From me you'll get understanding. I'll not consider you a closet Christian or any such misunderstanding.

[white_raven23]

But be prepared for it to met with interesting reactions or even accusations of siding with the enemy, etc. From me you'll get understanding. I'll not consider you a closet Christian or any such misunderstanding.

 

OMG!!! Ravenwing said something Pro-christian! Get the stones! Get the tar and feathers!

 

 

Nah.

 

We know better.

 

Besides, there's something about Ravenwing's pseudonym and avatar combo I'm strangely partial to.

[Heavenslaughing]

Antlerman, I very much enjoyed your thoughts on the nature of worship in Christian tradition. To think of god as an externalization of our highest ideals and to worship these ideals strikes me as resonant with what many people have told me they derive from worship. If we suppose that for many, the power of an infinite ideal can only be carried through some kind of story beyond our own finite lives, we have a cause for god. Institutionalized worship seems to serve us poorly right now, and I believe it's a great fallacy for someone to suppose that because she benefits from a certain kind of worship, everyone must. But some people do become stronger through it, and I don't see pursuing oneness with an infinite good through worship as something which is in any way less mature than pursuing good without it.

 

I'd like to suggest that more than one cause might result in potent practices we recognize as worship. In devotional Hinduism and a few kinds of Buddhism, worship of a particular god is intended to dissolute the ego by transferring devotion entirely to a transcendental being. In some ways, we can say there's something similar going on, and there's still an externalized ideal emanating from the self, yet the self, at least in terms of the individual, is not intended to be affirmed at all. The worshiper ideally comes to experience herself as an aspect or component of an absolute being-consciousness-bliss, of a "god" which, far beyond the particular representation she worshiped, is the universe itself. Or, in some more nihilistic varieties, her individual consciousness is snuffed to nothing in the process. (The literal translation for "nirvana" is snuffing out, as with a candle.) In both cases, there is a oneness with god being achieved, but instead of a cultivation of an individual self and the eventual rebirth of that self into everlasting life, there is a cessation of rebirth and a reincorporation of self into an absolute whole.

 

With that said, I think that worship for Christians can entail what you're suggesting, and maybe it means something else for other Christians, too. In this way, someone who protests, "That's not what prayer means for me at all!" doesn't necessarily have an argument with you. I suspect there simply might be several causes for one recognizable effect.

[Ravenwing]

We create God and serve God so he can serve us?

It often does work like that, doesn't it? Especially when people pray certain things ... like it's somehow more sanctified to give you advice through prayer than it is to just outright tell you what to do. Like maybe it's really God talking THROUGH them to you ...

 

Sorry. I got distracted. That was one of my major pet peeves. That and the 'if it's god's will' prayer. That used to piss me off something chronic!

 

Hey, there should be a post about ritual ... I'm in for discussing that one.