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Goodbye Jesus

Problem With Atheism


Internet Jesus

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[edit]I'm not going to delete the OP just in case newcomers want to see why I get screamed at.

 

But please, bear in mind, I'm speaking about majorities. I'm not talking about personal morality, or science's contradictions. I'm speaking on most of the people's behavior most of the time. Period.

 

"How the atheist movement is not engineered to expand" [/edit]

 

Atheism is not a very attractive point of view.

In fact, from the Christian perspective, it's diving head first into hopeless nihilism.

I will be the first atheist to admit that, yes, it is.

Godlessness is admitting that we are finite, the universe is hopeless, and we are all we have.

 

Christianity and most other cults offer a close bond of human relations.

godlessness does not.

 

Cultists welcome strangers into their home.

Cultists pick up hitchhikers.

Cultists have town meetings and incentive to feed our warm animal nature.

 

It seems as though the godless have acknowledged their existence as animals, but quickly forgotten the human experience.

Where as the god fearing only accept their position in human experience.

 

For this reason, I feel as though only the god fearing can be true humanists.

To the godless the human experience is insubstantial and even leads one to question the definition of 'human.'

 

 

I understand why a religious man would say atheist culture is without morality.

We are a cold cold shoulder to cry on, hardly inviting.

The godless never deliver absolute respect to anything outside of one's own being, never full selflessness.

That would be denying the existence we depend on.

 

 

YOISM,

an interesting philosophy I stumbled upon yesterday.

It seems to be a warmer version of deism. I would even call it godfearing still.

 

 

I see the need for the idea of 'I don't know-ism'

One is almost inclined to say that this is the godless position. Only realizing the bounds of your own education.

I consider the words 'I don't know' to be empowering. The small picture version of atheism.

And for a world to realize godlessness we must realize that there will always be a group that wishes not to know too much.

 

By placing a group of people into the position of internal locus of control, and admitting that they simply don't know, it is as far as I can see, a flawless religious proxy. It is harm to no one to say 'I don't know, I am not fully educated in the field'.

The words 'I don't know' would be held up like we would hold up god. [it's essentially the same thing already, less harmful.]

 

 

One would retain the ability to force all answers onto 'I don't know.' The words would become comfortable to us.

They would not be associated with failure, rather bravery and acknowledgement.

'I don't know' would be the reason for everything. 'I don't know' would be God.

 

 

'I don't know' would be warmth that the godfearing would miss.

'I don't know' is beautiful

'I don't know' would be friendly,

'I don't know' is a party.

 

'I don't know-ism' IS the meaning to life.

now wasn't that easy?

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Atheism is not a very attractive point of view.

In fact, from the Christian perspective, it's diving head first into hopeless nihilism.

If by nihilism you mean, "total rejection of established laws and institutions," I fail to see how Christianity is all that better off since they just make up their own rules whenever they create a new denom while rejecting the established laws of other denoms, thus Christians are just as guilty of nihilism as anyone else is, given that laws are man-made inventions.

 

I will be the first atheist to admit that, yes, it is.

Godlessness is admitting that we are finite, the universe is hopeless, and we are all we have.

Is it any different than a Christian who believes that the universe is hopeless without God, that God is their "life" and all they have, and isn't it selfish for a Christian to believe that they can obtain immortality if they follow a certain set of rules and make sure they're God's favorite while damning everyone who doesn't agree with their philosophy to hell?

 

Christianity and most other cults offer a close bond of human relations.

godlessness does not.

Christianity also only offers this close bond if you conform to their ways of living and will cut you off from their lives if you dare to disagree, as proven by the vast numbers of ex-Christians at this site who have been rejected from their human relations over a fantasy, thus does it really make those human relations worth it? And just because godlessness doesn't offer a close bond of human relations doesn't mean you can't have one if the friendships formed at ex-christian.net can prove. The only difference I can see between Christianity's "offers" of close bonds and godlessnesses is that Christians pretend that they were offered these human relations from the will of God, whereas godless people recongize that we were making the effort to make friends on our own all along.

 

Cultists welcome strangers into their home.

Cultists pick up hitchhikers.

Cultists have town meetings and incentive to feed our warm animal nature.

I don't really see how this has to do with whether or not one believes in invisible sky daddies. Isn't this more of a problem with an individual's morals? After all, Christians are just as guilty of doing these things. How many times have you seen a fundie welcome an atheist into their home? Weren't we just discussing awhile back about how fundies invaded the homes of one of our forum members and vandalized their property? I fail to see how that's an example of "feeding our warm animal nature."

 

It seems as though the godless have acknowledged their existence as animals, but quickly forgotten the human experience.

Where as the god fearing only accept their position in human experience.

Though, half of the time when Christians do good things, it's only because "Jesus gave to them first." Is doing good things for someone only because somebody did a good thing for you any that more moral than not doing them at all? Isn't having an ulterior motive for giving just as selfish as being honest with your morals and not giving? Besides which, there have been surveys done that show there are more Christians than atheists in general, so of course there's going to be more Christians who do these things than atheists because Christians automatically out-number atheists. That doesn't necessarily mean there are no atheists out there who do these good things, just that Christians out-number them because Christianity is bigger than atheism in general.

 

For this reason, I feel as though only the god fearing can be true humanists.

To the godless the human experience is insubstantial and even leads one to question the definition of 'human.'

I thought the definition of a human was, "a member of the genus Homo and especially of the species." I fail to see what this definition has to do with man-made morals.

 

 

I understand why a religious man would say atheist culture is without morality.
You mean like those same religious men who tortured Gallieo for his scientific research because it clashed with their beliefs, those same religious men who deny people the freedom to marry whatever gender they love, those same religious men who command women to bow down and worship them and forbid them from having leadership roles, or those same religious men who denied people of different races the freedom to live their own lives free from their masters, those same religious men who even now are committing mass genocide in the name of their God because they believed their God promised them 72 virgins if they murder innocent people? Yeah, that's some real "morality" there.

 

 

 

 

'I don't know-ism' IS the meaning to life.

now wasn't that easy?

I'm confused, isn't this agnosticism?
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If by nihilism you mean, "total rejection of established laws and institutions," I fail to see how Christianity is all that better off since they just make up their own rules whenever they create a new denom while rejecting the established laws of other denoms, thus Christians are just as guilty of nihilism as anyone else is, given that laws are man-made inventions.

 

From the Christian perspective.

I am speaking of the easiest way to unite humans under godlessness.

If we are to remain alive, and intelligent, it will have to happen, or nearly happen.

 

Is it any different than a Christian who believes that the universe is hopeless without God, that God is their "life" and all they have, and isn't it selfish for a Christian to believe that they can obtain immortality if they follow a certain set of rules and make sure they're God's favorite while damning everyone who doesn't agree with their philosophy to hell?

 

yes it is different. because for a Christian, the universe has 'god'

 

really, I feel I can answer the rest of your questions with the preface [the most frictionless way to bring reason to the christian mind]

 

another tool I feel would be calling evolution a fact. [if only for a generation or two to lubricate the deconversion process. ] The Christian nation has soiled and obscured centuries and centuries of knowledge and culture. They have adapted their version of creation science/creationism/intelligent design/etc.

All that we're witnessing is a large dumb cumbersome animal attempting to squeeze himself through a rigorous screening before every thing he knows disappears.

 

religion is the paradoxic nature of consciousness.

"Why am I conscious here now, instead of somewhere else some other time. my entire personal universe cannot be just an accident. I'm too aware for that. "

 

These thoughts are very hard to kill.

for the christian to kill off god and replace the holes in their education with 'i don't know' an answer any true atheist accepts to some level would be technically agnosticism yes, but then there is no such thing as an atheist. Atheists, men who depend so throughly on facts cannot ever say there is no god, It would be a lie, and we try not to lie.

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With due respect

 

TAKE YOU HEAD FROM UP YOUR ARSE AND LIVE YOU INVERTEBRATE!!! AND QUIT THE GIBBER-JABBER, CRAZY FOOL!

 

this has been a Grandpa Harley pep talk...

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Atheism is not a very attractive point of view.

In fact, from the Christian perspective, it's diving head first into hopeless nihilism.

I will be the first atheist to admit that, yes, it is.

Godlessness is admitting that we are finite, the universe is hopeless, and we are all we have.

 

Sure, if you make it appear to be hopeless. You can make anything to be unattractive...look at some Christians. Is this supposed to be an attempt at objectivity or emotional ramblings?

 

Christianity and most other cults offer a close bond of human relations.

godlessness does not.

 

Why not?

Cultists welcome strangers into their home.

Cultists pick up hitchhikers.

Cultists have town meetings and incentive to feed our warm animal nature.

 

So do atheists.

So do atheists.

So do atheists.

 

It seems as though the godless have acknowledged their existence as animals, but quickly forgotten the human experience.

Where as the god fearing only accept their position in human experience.

 

Uh..acknowledging our existence as part of the animal kingdom is acknowledging our humanity. Fabricating mysticality that has no bearing in reality and fantasizing about transcendency doesn't mean "human experience". Being an animal is part of the human experience. The God-fearing deny their humanity in hope of being mini-Gods.

 

For this reason, I feel as though only the god fearing can be true humanists.

To the godless the human experience is insubstantial and even leads one to question the definition of 'human.'

 

Insubstantial? I don't know what you mean by that. What's wrong with questioning the definition of human?

 

 

I understand why a religious man would say atheist culture is without morality.

 

Because Satan ain't real and they need something that actually exists to demonize?

 

We are a cold cold shoulder to cry on, hardly inviting.

 

Oh...right. We're all emotionless animals who only play at being human...

 

The godless never deliver absolute respect to anything outside of one's own being, never full selflessness.

That would be denying the existence we depend on.

 

What a load of crap.

 

'I don't know-ism' IS the meaning to life.

now wasn't that easy?

 

I don't know doesn't give meaning, it's admission of not knowing...the antithesis to meaning. There's nothing wrong with that...why try to create a philosophy around it?

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'I don't know-ism' IS the meaning to life.

now wasn't that easy?

I'm confused, isn't this agnosticism?

 

Of course not, because then he wouldn't be special. We have to create and adhere to our own little labels so we can feel special. I'm not an atheist, I'm an anonatheist. I don't not not believe in God, which is totally different from atheists, who don't believe in God. See?

 

:HaHa:

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God preserve us from Emo-kids... :fdevil:

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Look, even if there is no God, it doesn't mean that life is meaningless. It has the meaning we give it. In all honesty, given only two choices of either believing in a world where God doesn't exist and there's no meaning, and a world where the Christians are right and the universe is ruled by a Omnipotent Psychotic Tyrant Named Yahweh, who will throw you into a burning furnace unless you kiss his ass, and even those who obey him live in terror of him, I'd gladly choose the atheist view. I think you need to be re-familiarized with a famous quote of Robert Ingersoll.

 

 

If there is a God who will damn his children forever, I would rather go to hell than to go to heaven and keep the society of such an infamous tyrant. I make my choice now. I despise that doctrine. It has covered the cheeks of this world with tears. It has polluted the hearts of children, and poisoned the imaginations of men.... What right have you, sir, Mr. clergyman, you, minister of the gospel to stand at the portals of the tomb, at the vestibule of eternity, and fill the future with horror and with fear? I do not believe this doctrine, neither do you. If you did, you could not sleep one moment. Any man who believes it, and has within his breast a decent, throbbing heart, will go insane. A man who believes that doctrine and does not go insane has the heart of a snake and the conscience of a hyena.

-- Robert Green Ingersoll, "The Liberty Of All" (1877)

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You seem to have made your mind up already..

 

Do you want to talk about this? Already there are people coming in to encourage you and tell you its not really as bleak as all that. I don't know what things are like in your life right now, but I and many others can say that atheism is not nihilistic.

 

Morality can exist independent of religion, as can selflessness. We all have the same capacity for those regardless of philosophy, we are all human after all.

 

My advice, if you care, is to reconsider some of these statements from a broader perspective. As is you seem to be working this theory of yours from some rather faulty assumptions.

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Internet Jesus you are looking at atheism as a set of beliefs. You aren't seeing atheism as what it really is--lack of belief. That's all it is, not buying into any religious doctrines. Atheism doesn't promote nihilism. In fact, if you look around you at the true "miracle" of life (the pure chance involved at every step) it gives life so much more meaning than some deity who plopped you down here to worship him forever. Did Heaven ever really sound all that great to anyone? Did anyone ever think that sitting around Heaven singing god's praises FOREVER would be fun? Sounds like a really long and boring church service to me.

 

Life is an amazing thing and you make it meaningful or you don't. When we realize this might very well be all there is we can start making our lives and the lives of others better now instead of thinking some life to come will change things. The latter view is actually more nihilistic about this life than the former.

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Apparently I am an atheist, but I am none of these other things you describe Internet Jesus. I am not nihilistic. And I often pick up hitch hikers. I once even picked up a con fresh out of prison, just outside the gates.

 

I don’t believe you are in any position right now to “bring free thought to light in the worldâ€. Your message is nothing new. Many people have cried, “vanity, vanity, vanity.â€

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I find atheism harder than christianity, intellectually speaking. I-don't-know-ism is really a nihilistic cop-out, though (I don't think much of nihilism as I understand it; I think it puts too much of a burden on the individual.) I prefer learn-ism; that is, the idea that I will never know it all, so continual learning means continual growth (plus never being bored).

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It seems as though the godless have acknowledged their existence as animals, but quickly forgotten the human experience.

Where as the god fearing only accept their position in human experience.

 

This is a statement not grounded in fact. Most atheists I know will give the shirt off their backs as oft as any theist might. Personally I found my appreciation of humanity increased when I dropped god. Before wars and the like were god's will. Now I just see them as a waste.

 

In fact how many atheists do you know who are in support of the current US foreign policy? How many xians?

 

I really don't see where you are going with this line of thought.

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Nihilism... I think that's just a stage in your process from transitioning from a baby-care-center like religion, where "meaning of life" is served to you ready-mashed and easy to swallow, into maturity where you - personally - have to start making a meaning of life yourself. I have meaning of life. And I'm an atheist... how can that be? Because now, I'm the one responsible to create (with my own "god" like powers) the meaning and purpose.

 

InternetJesus, lets do a little thought experiment. You used to be Christian, right? Does God have a meaning of life? What is God's purpose of living? He doesn't have a God to believe in, or to serve or praise, or to fear, or to hope for salvation for an eternal life, so then, what is his meaning of life? He can't have one, because in a sense, he is a non-theist, (like some Christian on this site said, that God is a theist because he believes in himself - but that's kind of strange - believe in yourself and that gives you meaning? ... Oh, no way, that works great, because that's exactly what I do! :HaHa:), and he doesn't have the reason to live... or... is it that meaning and purpose is what we make it to be. The same way a potential God would have to do?

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From the Christian perspective.

I am speaking of the easiest way to unite humans under godlessness.

Unite under what? Atheism has no dogma, no philosophy, or no religion. It merely is a lack of belief in God. What are atheists supposed to unite under? Whether you want to be united or not is up to you, but atheism itself is not about unity, it is merely a lack of beliefs in God.

 

If we are to remain alive, and intelligent, it will have to happen, or nearly happen.
Says who? Christians aren't united either, and they're still the most popular religion in the world, so I guess that blows that argument out of the water. Again, atheism is not a dogma or religion, so why must atheism be united in order to exist when atheism has nothing to be united about? Furthermore, why must atheism remain alive? If atheism remains alive, great. If it doesn't and people are satisfied with believing in God and as long as people are happy with whatever path they take, great for them. Again, atheism is not a religion and has no dogma, so I don't see why it must remain alive. Are you expecting atheists to start evangelizing atheism or something?

 

 

 

yes it is different. because for a Christian, the universe has 'god'
Which God and which beliefs in God? This is a straw man argument and has no relevance to atheists because atheists don't believe in God and has nothing to do with whether or not Christians are more moral than atheists.

 

 

for the christian to kill off god and replace the holes in their education with 'i don't know' an answer any true atheist accepts to some level would be technically agnosticism yes, but then there is no such thing as an atheist. Atheists, men who depend so throughly on facts cannot ever say there is no god, It would be a lie, and we try not to lie.
I don't know what dictionary you've been using, but atheism does not claim to know that there is no God. Atheism merely means "lack of beliefs in God." Even the Romans in the 1st Century labeled Christians as "atheists" because they lacked beliefs in the Roman Gods. And since when do atheists claim to know anything? I haven't seen any atheists here claiming to know anything about God. And since when are there "true atheist"? What defines what a "true atheist" is other than "lack of beliefs in God?" I thought we left behind all those "true believers" crap when we deconverted from Christianity? Again, atheism is not a religion or a philosophy, thus there can be no such thing as a "true" atheist or a "false" atheist when atheism has no dogma to be true or false to.
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I prefer learn-ism; that is, the idea that I will never know it all, so continual learning means continual growth (plus never being bored).

Grad, I largely agree with this. I would have said "understand" rather than "know". But that might be semantics. It seems to me that understanding is good for many things. Even if left unapplied it brings me a certain kind of appreciation for things. In addition if I understand then I am better prepared to affect change. So I also recognize the power of understanding.

 

Best to you in your studies.

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Sounds like you have a bug up your ass Rebby... Tell us what you really think.

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Stepping out of that religious context requires a rational scientific mind and once you've stepped out of the goddamn bullshit you have to accept that reality is validated with experimentation.

Let us have it out Reboot. I disagree. I suspect that people leave because that was the resolution of their inner conflicts.

 

And I don't entirely know what you mean by "the validation of reality."

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To summarize and make it simple:

An atheist that believes in 'no christian god' (or any other cult/religion) is correct.

An atheist that believes in 'no creator' is an absolutist fundy.

 

We've been through this Reboot. This misunderstanding is why I am so reluctant to idenify with atheism. I would prefer to be known primarily as a naturalist, but that may not happen. In all the natural sciences of which I am aware, not one has asked "why?" and answered "God". And this may be because it would be the same as answering "mystery." Yet we know there is mystery. It might be argued that the very purpose of the natural sciences is to unravel mystery.

 

Now am I fundie?

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Sounds like you have a bug up your ass Rebby... Tell us what you really think.

 

To summarize and make it simple:

An atheist that believes in 'no christian god' (or any other cult/religion) is correct.

An atheist that believes in 'no creator' is an absolutist fundy.

 

And as I told you in the other thread this is a strawman that xians use. There is a difference between believing there is no god and disbelieving god claims; a quite profound one in fact.

 

You seem to be taking an emotional position on this subject and appear to have an issue you want to hash out with other board members.

 

But please, do go on and tell us how much more scientifically minded and enlightened you are than the rest of us here.

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You seem to have made your mind up already..

 

Do you want to talk about this? Already there are people coming in to encourage you and tell you its not really as bleak as all that. I don't know what things are like in your life right now, but I and many others can say that atheism is not nihilistic.

 

Morality can exist independent of religion, as can selflessness. We all have the same capacity for those regardless of philosophy, we are all human after all.

 

My advice, if you care, is to reconsider some of these statements from a broader perspective. As is you seem to be working this theory of yours from some rather faulty assumptions.

 

I was very high and very depressed last night.

 

My life sucks. I am a nihilist, because that is what I was built to be.

 

My life really sucks.

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I was very high and very depressed last night.

 

My life sucks. I am a nihilist, because that is what I was built to be.

 

My life really sucks.

 

Alright sorry for being insensitive, when you're on one of life's peaks you tend to forget what depression is like. Platitudes are probably not what you need here.

 

Based on what you said there, "my life sucks" that implies that your life is less than it should be. What do you expect, what do you want out of life, what would make things better for you?

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Edit: El Doble Poste! Ay Carumba!

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Sounds like you have a bug up your ass Rebby... Tell us what you really think.

 

To summarize and make it simple:

An atheist that believes in 'no christian god' (or any other cult/religion) is correct.

An atheist that believes in 'no creator' is an absolutist fundy.

 

And as I told you in the other thread this is a strawman that xians use. There is a difference between believing there is no god and disbelieving god claims; a quite profound one in fact.

You seem to be taking an emotional position on this subject and appear to have an issue you want to hash out with other board members.

But please, do go on and tell us how much more scientifically minded and enlightened you are than the rest of us here.

 

Its a simple distinction, that not many people understand. That's all ?!

You seem to get it

:beer: Cheers !

 

Internet Jesus isn't there yet. He's about to fall into the goddam atheist absolutist f***ing fundy trap. That was the f***ing point I was driving at.

 

no no, look at yourselves.

There is nothing attractive about atheism to a christian. [truth and blah blah]

I mean socially, there is no gathering. Humans desire close knit communities, writhe and be a bitch, but ATHEISTS AS A MOVEMENT DO NOT DO THAT. When we gather all we do is argue and tell people with differing unbased views that they're fucking stupid.

While that might be very true, not everyone can aspire to intellectual snobbery.

 

 

The acclaimed cornerstones of Islam, Christianity, Taoism any religion for that matter, is love kinship and happy little families.

 

Ours is shouting louder than the post above. We have no god to tell us to love one another.

We DO have the laws of nature, and the knowledge that this will be a desolate place without one another, but as as a body we aren't using that knowledge.

 

For the atheist movement to move forward on this planet we would have to stop being the asshole community.

 

We would need to develop physical ex-faith communities/support groups in real life for the vast majority that wont think for themselves.

 

Without them we will always lack the popular vote.

 

admit that

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I was very high and very depressed last night.

 

My life sucks. I am a nihilist, because that is what I was built to be.

 

My life really sucks.

 

You should try out some of my semi-esoteric potion :HaHa: Its a f***ing cure-all for me !

 

semi-esoteric potion? WTF?

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