Grandpa Harley Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Still haven't seen a defence of Yoyo being a twonk... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Antlerman and Alice, I don’t want to belabor these points. I get the impression that many look upon this conversation and are a bit vexed. After all, what’s the big deal? Epistemology- from philosophy meaning what counts as genuine knowledge. My only aim here is to highlight the epistemology of the natural sciences. The natural sciences are the domain of explicit understanding. I am not overly interested in philosophy, but it cannot be escaped. I suspect that Descartes was wrong about many things (most significantly perhaps was the machine/organism metaphor). But nevertheless, all the sciences require observers (and more than observers). I interpret Descartes’ statement like this… I think, therefore there must be an “I†observing or having these thoughts. Its sole accomplishment is to present irrefutable evidence for the existence of observers in my interpretation. Next language. Before we can go about discovering the secret relations between things we must have something possessing order and relationships with which to compare. Language, in all its many guises, from art to mathematics, provides the required orderliness and relations. My only point is this… If we wish to build a proper foundation for the natural sciences then among the things we will need to incorporate is a justification for the existence of observers, and something possessing order and relationships. We think therefore we are. Language is a part of us. Thanks you guys. To me it is clear that you thought about this and you were well spoken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 But the next point I was getting to in this is that of taking that basic idea of rules of fairness when they encounter another tribe with their own fully developed system of social rules or "truths", and then responded to them with that same process of a rational recognition that the order is wrong, then respond emotionally by trying to exert their rules as the right ones. And maybe an example of this might be deciding that someone from another tribe with their own set of 'truths' - is an idiot incapable of thinking (this comment's for you to consider Gramps) (from 2001 A Space Odyssey) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 But the next point I was getting to in this is that of taking that basic idea of rules of fairness when they encounter another tribe with their own fully developed system of social rules or "truths", and then responded to them with that same process of a rational recognition that the order is wrong, then respond emotionally by trying to exert their rules as the right ones. And maybe an example of this might be deciding that someone from another tribe with their own set of 'truths' - is an idiot incapable of thinking (this comment's for you to consider Gramps) I've not seen any evidence of 'thinking', and less evidence of the reading and comprehension abilities of a slightly dull 8 year old... Feel free to try and disabuse me, but ATM you are, with due respect, pissing in the wind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 I've not seen any evidence of 'thinking', and less evidence of the reading and comprehension abilities of a slightly dull 8 year old... Feel free to try and disabuse me, but ATM you are, with due respect, pissing in the wind... OK Gramps, this is Yoyo's first post from the thread Chef is referring to .. Good topic! This was one of the mentally hardest reads of the Bible for me. Here is God (which many as me, think God-Christ-God Christ) basically giving authority to killing these 'sinners' and then saying, aahhh, wasn't enough. Give them a plague. I read and read this area of the Bible until I pulled my hair out. Then I would go back a little and read ; then go forward a little and read ; then end result was starting from the beginning to the end Anyway, its still hard to accept the violence, destruction, chaos in the OT; in also trying to relate that God, as the Father of Christ. Sometimes, I feel like I can justify it, but rationally, thats like trying to rationalize the Veitnam war. Sometimes, I have to not put it away, but rather say. I don't understand it, I cant rationalize it. I still believe God is, and Christ is; and maybe when i die; I might see the why. Maybe, it was wrote wrong; maybe they were cursing aaron, moses, God; maybe they hid the calf. That sorta thing did happen, when they took over a city and God told them not to take certain things; and later there was things in the camp that weren't suppose to be there. Same situation, God was 'angered'. Thats a whole different topic though. God's 'anger'. God also said later after the plague thing, to Moses, these people were 'stiffnecked' people. Christ, in the topic of divorcement, said God permitted it to be so because of the hardness of their hearts. So. Though, like I said earlier; theres no human rationality toward the situation. God did give His 'reason' for His harshness. What do I see when I read this? I see some self disclosure, questioning and thinking. True - I do not see a marvellous intellect, I do not see a great wordsmith, I do not not agree with his conclusions, maybe I even find them to be quite ridiculous, they are still the product of someone else's thinking. Just because you have concluded that yoyo hasn't achieved your level of thinking - just because he does not think the same thoughts as you, does not mean he does not 'think'. And every one who thinks, feels also. Some are able to make a distiction between what is personal and what is not - and some are not able to make this distinction. Gramps, there is something more at play here - beyond a person's beliefs, because I know that you have huge respect for some people who retain religious beliefs. I assume that these are people whose intellect or wealth of knowledge you value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 You're saying I'm a snob, aren't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 You're saying I'm a snob, aren't you? ummmmmmm - yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 And maybe an example of this might be deciding that someone from another tribe with their own set of 'truths' - is an idiot incapable of thinking (this comment's for you to consider Gramps) More or less we are in the same tribe though right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Well. I certainly feel 'special'. I am a little embarrassed, logging on and seeing a topic with my name on it. I will say thank you to all here that are looking deeper into my thought and are trying to understand my 'reason'. My process of thought is broke down into so many forms, sometimes I get lost in transition; as I would assume we all have. Chef, Thanks for taking the time to relate to my thoughts. I feel as though I owe an explanation of my posts, discussions, etc. I did take a break, as to religion sometimes is like politics. If someone feels a certain way, they form theories, thoughts, reason, intelligence to that defense. Indeed, it is an emotional life. The position of someones life is very complicated. Some may have suffered traumatic events, some emotionally abused, some wanting a 'niche'; and many others. The thoughts of each person are secret to that person. Some have disclosed actual events of their lives here, expounded on them, and some still hidden. As I also have done. I believe we all believe our position because thats the position we are in, not by choice; by circumstances of this world; but based on each persons emotional state. There are many reasons for my thought pattern. For every argument about the Christian religion; there are two sides, in which both have 'their' reasons of belief. It comes down to simplicity, someone is right and someone is wrong. There is no in between . Does the Bible have contradictions, errors, unexplainable violence, parables that are confusing, more contradictions for the confusing parables, more 'character change' in the God portrayed? Yes. Why? I don't know. Why do I still believe? I still believe because of my personal experiences in life. I've cursed God, I've run from God, I've begged God, I've wondered aimlessly trying to see the God that is suppose to know when a sparrow falls. I went to church, listened to Pastors, preachers, priests, evangelists, speak of many things, yet see those same people cringe at certain 'questions'. I have cried to God in sheer embarrassment, in utter humbling, in joy when knowledge is revealed to me. I have got those famous 'goose bumps' and felt like something just went through my bloodstream that made every hair on my body stand straight. I think more than I act, as we all do sometimes. Jesus said, Go and make disciples unto yourselves; He said these disciples were to strip down to nothing in belongings and go. Then He would give us what we need. Jesus said Take your cross and follow me. Jesus said we would lose everything in this world to follow Him, and some would lose even their family. When He came, He wasn't liked. He was ridiculed, questioning, and not understood. The only people that choose to understand Him were the willing. The willing. The willing ones that today we would call ignorant. Paul, by no means was ignorant, and choose to kill Christians that followed Christ; yet God turned his way into good. Paul suffered a traumatic event, he heard the voice of God, and was blinded according to the Bible. Paul's life changed, his 'reason' changed, his 'knowledge' changed. Some may say he was insane, mental disturbed, or even suffering from some type of medical condition. Yet, Paul was direct in his direction with God after that, obtained his same knowledge, and persevered through the criticism; until he was killed. My point is that your life is like a sponge. Whether, we evolved, came from the Big bang, or bacteria. We are sponges to knowledge, perceptions, and thoughts through words that are spoke with our mouths, or communication. More advanced than any other creature on this planet. Thats a fact. Though, animals may have ruled the world at one time, we were still there. Our capabilities are endless in suggesting, thinking, progressing, examining, defending, and communicating our desires, beliefs, reasons, for the thing that makes us wake up every morning. Whether that 'thing' is God, Atheism, church, work, family, arguing, debating, name calling, or even trying to seek answers hidden deep inside of us; trying to fill the thing all of creation has. An origin. We want to know where we came from. We want to know what is going to happen to us. Someone very close to me asked me a question once; in which I couldn't explain religiously without gaps. What happens when we die? Are we still going to know each other? I did the best I could; also keep this in mind, this person is diagnosed as a manic depressant, has been sexual abused, physically abused, and has been going to church by themselves since the age of 9. I am not God, I cannot connect the zeal for someone to feel that kind of reassurance of life; and if anyone claims they could they are seriously mistaken. We may influence someone for a time, but unless the roots of that persons emotions are to live, they will not want to live. Direction, is the only avenue of resource one could obtain that zeal for life; as it runs much deeper than any words, logic, reason, knowledge in life. Knowledge of many things are in many places and are highly accessible in these modern times. But with that comes opinions, comments formed into fact or reason, and also great confusion. The apologetics have a complete lay out of the Bible, explanations of many things, resources, etc. So does the site that contradicts the Bible. People of the same stature of knowledge looking into the same matter of the proving process can make two entirely different observations, one may notice a specific thing, the other may not. One example was the cloth of Christ from the Vatican. It was researched by people, who in whole where of of the same knowledge level of education. Some say its a fake, others still believe its not. Some say it dates to the time it was given to the Pope, others say that they found 'other' things that put the cloth to the time of Christ. Fact is fact, and I'm not here to discredit anyone. I am simply implying that a human being is a person of reason, knowledge, thought, and emotions. But everyone is driven by how they feel emotionally, and their own personal life experiences. In that I will say, yes I have experienced not getting along with the church, others disassociating themselves from me, and loss of family and peers; all because of my perception of God and the Bible. But, I have also seen God through people do wonderful things that are unexplainable and unforgotten that makes me say; thank you. If those people that do these things are associated with God, I thank God. If these people are not associated with God at all, I say thank God. Because I believe in God and I think God connects into all channels of life. If a person examines their inner self, they will find the answers. I just thought of my high school friend. He was a very robust, ruddy, go do it, type. Constantly getting into trouble, getting high, drunk, girls, fights, the whole nine yards; as I did also. But, He was sent to private Christian school were they shoved God down out throats everyday; as I did go to a school like this. He got a girl pregnant at 17. He went to speak to the Pastor about 'being saved' and the purpose of life. He asked many questions that put him psychologically in the suicidal bracket, from what the police said. The Pastor could not answer his questions straight. He got confused, frustrated, disoriented; he stopped coming around. Next time we saw him, there was a shyness about him, a scared sorta look on his face; this I noticed without God as my zeal for life. I didn't say anything other than whats up. He had a party at his house and shot himself in the head with a shotgun. I didn't understand why that Pastor just let him go. He should have seen the signs, but he must have been to busy to notice. Maybe thats my past experiences that are lingering deep inside of me that causes me to come to this site. An unanswered question about life took my friends life. Underneath my daily thoughts, knowledge, reason, maybe, a part of a traumatic circumstance causes me to look to a God for answers and not give up until I get them. Maybe during conversion to a follower of Christ; the personal experiences that have impacted my daily life, has cause me to look for God. The human mind is a mystery in itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 And maybe an example of this might be deciding that someone from another tribe with their own set of 'truths' - is an idiot incapable of thinking (this comment's for you to consider Gramps) More or less we are in the same tribe though right? No. Gramps is British. Very different tribe. They use English funny, for one thing. Then again, so do Texans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 You're saying I'm a snob, aren't you? ummmmmmm - yes He didn't EARN my approbation until the grinning loon dropped the F-bomb... then gloves and the Marquis' rules are a distant memory as I gouge out his eyes and eat them.... I sound just like Mr Hyde from the League Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 "When He came, He wasn't liked. He was ridiculed, questioning, and not understood. The only people that choose to understand Him were the willing. The willing. The willing ones that today we would call ignorant. Paul, by no means was ignorant, and choose to kill Christians that followed Christ; yet God turned his way into good. Paul suffered a traumatic event, he heard the voice of God, and was blinded according to the Bible. Paul's life changed, his 'reason' changed, his 'knowledge' changed. Some may say he was insane, mental disturbed, or even suffering from some type of medical condition. Yet, Paul was direct in his direction with God after that, obtained his same knowledge, and persevered through the criticism; until he was killed." Im sorry but you expect me to respect this as history Alice? I knew this was hogwash before I left school... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Just why are you here typing the above nonsense? It ain't history, it ain't fact, and it's just your opinion about why everyone here is WRONG... Well whoop de fucking do... Anyone would believe you think we can't read or think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 I did take a break, as to religion sometimes is like politics. It comes down to simplicity, someone is right and someone is wrong. Fantastic, I want to comment further, but I wanted to share a few quick thoughts on these statements. I see politics and religion as being related through their mutual use of the word "should." For arguement sake, suppose I see a hawk kill and eat a rabbit. Well I love mammals. Some part of me says this should not have happened. It was wrong. But this is somewhat childish of me, right? All might be better served if I tried to understand the event rather than judge it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Chances are the hawk was more endangered than the rabbit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Wow Yoyo, - long post. Just a couple of extracts I'd like to comment on. I believe we all believe our position because thats the position we are in, not by choice; by circumstances of this world; but based on each persons emotional state .... There are many reasons for my thought pattern. For every argument about the Christian religion; there are two sides, in which both have 'their' reasons of belief. It comes down to simplicity, someone is right and someone is wrong. There is no in between . I still believe because of my personal experiences in life. We are sponges to knowledge, perceptions, and thoughts through words that are spoke with our mouths, or communication. I think you say a coupe of things that are right on the money and one that is miles off. I think you might find it helpful to reconsider your view point that people are either right or wrong. This kind of binary thinking doesn't fit with the other conclusions you have reached here. But I do agree with you that people believe or stop believing christianity for a combination of reasons - my favourite way of wording this is that we are all the product of our genes, experiences and knowledge to date. I see thought and emotion as intertwined and all but inseparable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 And maybe an example of this might be deciding that someone from another tribe with their own set of 'truths' - is an idiot incapable of thinking (this comment's for you to consider Gramps) More or less we are in the same tribe though right? No. Gramps is British. Very different tribe. They use English funny, for one thing. Then again, so do Texans. Valid point... I scatter Us and Cs that you chaps seem ot have forgotten... A pox on Dr Webster and all his works! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Wow Yoyo, - long post. Just a couple of extracts I'd like to comment on. I believe we all believe our position because thats the position we are in, not by choice; by circumstances of this world; but based on each persons emotional state .... There are many reasons for my thought pattern. For every argument about the Christian religion; there are two sides, in which both have 'their' reasons of belief. It comes down to simplicity, someone is right and someone is wrong. There is no in between . I still believe because of my personal experiences in life. We are sponges to knowledge, perceptions, and thoughts through words that are spoke with our mouths, or communication. I think you say a coupe of things that are right on the money and one that is miles off. I think you might find it helpful to reconsider your view point that people are either right or wrong. This kind of binary thinking doesn't fit with the other conclusions you have reached here. But I do agree with you that people believe or stop believing christianity for a combination of reasons - my favourite way of wording this is that we are all the product of our genes, experiences and knowledge to date. I see thought and emotion as intertwined and all but inseparable. You're more forgiving of someone insulting your intelligence than I am... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 I did take a break, as to religion sometimes is like politics. It comes down to simplicity, someone is right and someone is wrong. Fantastic, I want to comment further, but I wanted to share a few quick thoughts on these statements. I see politics and religion as being related through their mutual use of the word "should." For arguement sake, suppose I see a hawk kill and eat a rabbit. Well I love mammals. Some part of me says this should not have happened. It was wrong. But this is somewhat childish of me, right? All might be better served if I tried to understand the event rather than judge it. I love it when you talk understanding to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 I did take a break, as to religion sometimes is like politics. It comes down to simplicity, someone is right and someone is wrong. Fantastic, I want to comment further, but I wanted to share a few quick thoughts on these statements. I see politics and religion as being related through their mutual use of the word "should." For arguement sake, suppose I see a hawk kill and eat a rabbit. Well I love mammals. Some part of me says this should not have happened. It was wrong. But this is somewhat childish of me, right? All might be better served if I tried to understand the event rather than judge it. Correct Lr, Upon further gain of knowledge, this is the food chain. Its natural. Yet, the natural is unnatural to someone that say had a rabbit as a childhood pet, named it, took care of it, loved it. It changed the pattern of reason. This person 'feels' remorse for the rabbit, yet possibly understand even still that the rabbit was food for the hawk. The first person who is not emotional attached to the idea of the rabbit being lunch would not think to much into this deeper than the perception they have. On the other hand, the second person might cry over the rabbit being eaten, though this person still has the knowledge that the rabbit was food, in the natural food chain. I wanted to add that the third person may totally disagree with the food chain, disregarding logic, and become angry at the hawk and try to kill it or capture it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 I see politics and religion as being related through their mutual use of the word "should." I see politics and religion being similar in that they are both based on opinion backed by sentiment and slab of invested personal identity... and one also has to spend a lot of time trying to forgive others for theirs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 You're more forgiving of someone insulting your intelligence than I am... Some people know how to make the distinction between what should be taken personally and what shouldn't ... and some people have yet to learn this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 I think more than I act, as we all do sometimes. Jesus said, Go and make disciples unto yourselves; He said these disciples were to strip down to nothing in belongings and go. Then He would give us what we need. Is that why you are here - to try to "make disciples"? Though, animals may have ruled the world at one time, we were still there. What do you mean? An origin. We want to know where we came from. Please speak for yourself, some of us don't care. Someone very close to me asked me a question once; in which I couldn't explain religiously without gaps. What happens when we die? Are we still going to know each other? And what is your answer - The Bible tells me so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 I see politics and religion as being related through their mutual use of the word "should." I see politics and religion being similar in that they are both based on opinion backed by sentiment and slab of invested personal identity... and one also has to spend a lot of time trying to forgive others for theirs... That's a very interesting comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 "When He came, He wasn't liked. He was ridiculed, questioning, and not understood. The only people that choose to understand Him were the willing. The willing. The willing ones that today we would call ignorant. Paul, by no means was ignorant, and choose to kill Christians that followed Christ; yet God turned his way into good. Paul suffered a traumatic event, he heard the voice of God, and was blinded according to the Bible. Paul's life changed, his 'reason' changed, his 'knowledge' changed. Some may say he was insane, mental disturbed, or even suffering from some type of medical condition. Yet, Paul was direct in his direction with God after that, obtained his same knowledge, and persevered through the criticism; until he was killed." Im sorry but you expect me to respect this as history Alice? I knew this was hogwash before I left school... Gramps I do not expect you to respect this as history. I'd love for you to be able to respect this as the sum of Yoyo's knowldege on the subject to date and I'd love for you to want to use your extensive knowledge, your remarkable skill as a wordsmith, your wit, your insight, and your intelligence, in a way that engaged ALL your audience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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