A Few Thoughts In Defense Of Yoyo

[Grandpa Harley]

You're more forgiving of someone insulting your intelligence than I am...

 

Some people know how to make the distinction between what should be taken personally and what shouldn't ... and some people have yet to learn this.

 

 

If my mother was as tolerant as you, you'd sound like my mother...

[Alice]

You're more forgiving of someone insulting your intelligence than I am...

 

Some people know how to make the distinction between what should be taken personally and what shouldn't ... and some people have yet to learn this.

 

 

If my mother was as tolerant as you, you'd sound like my mother...

 

Is that a request for a spanking?

[Japedo]

I still believe because of my personal experiences in life. I've cursed God, I've run from God, I've begged God, I've wondered aimlessly trying to see the God that is suppose to know when a sparrow falls. I went to church, listened to Pastors, preachers, priests, evangelists, speak of many things, yet see those same people cringe at certain 'questions'. I have cried to God in sheer embarrassment, in utter humbling, in joy when knowledge is revealed to me. I have got those famous 'goose bumps' and felt like something just went through my bloodstream that made every hair on my body stand straight. I think more than I act, as we all do sometimes. Jesus said, Go and make disciples unto yourselves; He said these disciples were to strip down to nothing in belongings and go. Then He would give us what we need. Jesus said Take your cross and follow me. Jesus said we would lose everything in this world to follow Him, and some would lose even their family.

 

Welcome to the road of most of us have traveled YoYo. This is crucial and needs to be highlighted. I believe most of us has arrived to where we are today starting off with your exact mindset. Looking for the only true way to become a more perfect Christian. I believe many people whom are still Christians who come to this site don't believe us when we say we honestly looked for god. Being dismissive of those who cried out to god, who begged for a shred of faith in light of all the evidence and who honestly looked is offensive and brings levels of anger to those who smirk and look down their nose. One is at greater risk of losing loved ones and family rejecting god then embracing the concept. There are two roads.. One's called Truth the other's called Faith. Some of us took instruction seriously and the promise of "Seek and Ye shall find" "Ask and it shall be given unto you". Well... be careful what you seek and be careful what you ask for, it just might happen. Once you take the truth road there is no unseeing it. The toothpaste is out of the tube and it's something you live with.

 

 

 

Whether that 'thing' is God, Atheism, church, work, family, arguing, debating, name calling, or even trying to seek answers hidden deep inside of us; trying to fill the thing all of creation has. An origin. We want to know where we came from. We want to know what is going to happen to us.

 

Religion doesn't answer this question reasonably tho. I mean in short when it all boils down to it Christians believe we were made out of a lump of mud and a body part for women. We are all damned and doomed all because of a non sin of eating an apple. It might be an 'answer' but it's a bad answer never the less.

 

 

Fact is fact, and I'm not here to discredit anyone. I am simply implying that a human being is a person of reason, knowledge, thought, and emotions. But everyone is driven by how they feel emotionally, and their own personal life experiences. In that I will say, yes I have experienced not getting along with the church, others disassociating themselves from me, and loss of family and peers; all because of my perception of God and the Bible. But, I have also seen God through people do wonderful things that are unexplainable and unforgotten that makes me say; thank you. If those people that do these things are associated with God, I thank God. If these people are not associated with God at all, I say thank God. Because I believe in God and I think God connects into all channels of life.

 

 

Why not thank the people? I never understood this mindset. God has zero power over my choices YoYo. As an example, I used to send my mother money and/or care packages. Each time I wasn't the one thanked, God was.. why? It used to be said, "god" used me to supply a need. How insulting, god didn't go to work to make the money or take the time to put together the care package, god didn't pay for the postage or anything else yet he gets all the glory while I'm barely acknowledged. This is a huge pet peeve of mine and one I find many Christians habitually do.

 

 

If a person examines their inner self, they will find the answers.

 

I agree completely! Please remember that not all answers are going to be ones you agree with, and not answers are going to be found, some will take the rest of our lives to look for answers.

 

 

He got a girl pregnant at 17. He went to speak to the Pastor about 'being saved' and the purpose of life. He asked many questions that put him psychologically in the suicidal bracket, from what the police said. The Pastor could not answer his questions straight. He got confused, frustrated, disoriented; he stopped coming around. Next time we saw him, there was a shyness about him, a scared sorta look on his face; this I noticed without God as my zeal for life. I didn't say anything other than whats up.

 

He had a party at his house and shot himself in the head with a shotgun. I didn't understand why that Pastor just let him go. He should have seen the signs, but he must have been to busy to notice. Maybe thats my past experiences that are lingering deep inside of me that causes me to come to this site. An unanswered question about life took my friends life. Underneath my daily thoughts, knowledge, reason, maybe, a part of a traumatic circumstance causes me to look to a God for answers and not give up until I get them. Maybe during conversion to a follower of Christ; the personal experiences that have impacted my daily life, has cause me to look for God. The human mind is a mystery in itself.

 

 

I'm deeply sorry for your tragic loss Yoyo. I hope you find the answers you're looking for. How tragic and sad this person felt so icolated and unloved that his only answer was to end it all. There are no easy answers to life, not in dogma and not in reality.

[Legion]

I did take a break, as to religion sometimes is like politics.

 

It comes down to simplicity, someone is right and someone is wrong.

Fantastic, I want to comment further, but I wanted to share a few quick thoughts on these statements.

 

I see politics and religion as being related through their mutual use of the word "should."

 

For arguement sake, suppose I see a hawk kill and eat a rabbit. Well I love mammals. Some part of me says this should not have happened. It was wrong. But this is somewhat childish of me, right? All might be better served if I tried to understand the event rather than judge it.

 

Correct Lr, Upon further gain of knowledge, this is the food chain. Its natural. Yet, the natural is unnatural to someone that say had a rabbit as a childhood pet, named it, took care of it, loved it. It changed the pattern of reason. This person 'feels' remorse for the rabbit, yet possibly understand even still that the rabbit was food for the hawk.

 

The first person who is not emotional attached to the idea of the rabbit being lunch would not think to much into this deeper than the perception they have. On the other hand, the second person might cry over the rabbit being eaten, though this person still has the knowledge that the rabbit was food, in the natural food chain.

 

I wanted to add that the third person may totally disagree with the food chain, disregarding logic, and become angry at the hawk and try to kill it or capture it.

I only urge you to listen to Proverbs 3 YoYo...

 

13 Blessed are those who find wisdom,

those who gain understanding,

 

14 for she is more profitable than silver

and yields better returns than gold.

 

15 She is more precious than rubies;

nothing you desire can compare with her.

 

16 Long life is in her right hand;

in her left hand are riches and honor.

 

Further I suggest that if you understand a thing you are better prepared to exert power over that thing.

[Alice]

Japedo,

 

that's a really beautiful response.

[Guest end3]

Please ignore my ignorace, but Japedo, you and Legion seem to put your control "outside" or "over" the thing. Why is it wrong to believe we can make the same choices "within" the thing?

[Legion]

Please ignore my ignorace, but Japedo, you and Legion seem to put your control "outside" or "over" the thing. Why is it wrong to believe we can make the same choices "within" the thing?

I'm not sure that understand End. Can you flesh this out with a few more words?

[Grandpa Harley]

Is that a request for a spanking?

 

 

I'd started to type 'You sound like my mother' and then realised, without the cursing, she's actually less forgiving of people thinking she's dumb or telling her her opinion that I am... She was 80 on saturday... I got her a Nintendo DS lite and Brain Trainer... mentally she's a year YOUNGER than me...

[Japedo]

Please ignore my ignorace, but Japedo, you and Legion seem to put your control "outside" or "over" the thing. Why is it wrong to believe we can make the same choices "within" the thing?

 

I'm with LR here End. No idea what you mean. What's "the thing"? As far as I see it the truth doesn't need control it just is.

 

 

 

Japedo,

 

that's a really beautiful response.

 

Thanks for the kind words Alice, It's nice to see you back posting, we've missed you.

[Guest end3]

Hans, Japedo, and probably others, (and I probably misread you last post LR), but they have taken responsibility without acknowledgement to God. My thoughts were, why is it not ok to take personal responsibility within the idea of God. You don't have to respond, there are many answers....

[Legion]

I love it when you talk understanding to me

Hey Alice! I'll gladly take some if you have it.

 

It is good to see you in these parts.

[Alice]

Hans, Japedo, and probably others, (and I probably misread you last post LR), but they have taken responsibility without acknowledgement to God. My thoughts were, why is it not ok to take personal responsibility within the idea of God. You don't have to respond, there are many answers....

 

I think that's a deist position isn't it End? Belief in a God who does not intervene in the world, thus one becomes responsible for one's own actions and behaviour.

 

Believing in a personal God - doesn't this mean he/she intervenes in your life from time to time - thus over riding your personal responsibility? From my own perspective as a christian it did seem that sin was something I'd inherited (therefore unable to exercise full Personal responsibility in this regard - being held repsonsible for things my ancestors were supposed to have done) - and any good that I was able to do ... was solely because God enabled me to do so, so not my reponsibility.

 

Nothing happened in my life but that god commanded it. Of course I was also expected to somehow be the vehicle for the changes god wanted to render in my life. This seemed to be the only area of personal responsibility open to me as a christian - failing to let God work some kind of miracle in me. Yep I guess there is some room for personal responsibility 'within the christian system'.

[Alice]

Is that a request for a spanking?

 

 

I'd started to type 'You sound like my mother' and then realised, without the cursing, she's actually less forgiving of people thinking she's dumb or telling her her opinion that I am... She was 80 on saturday... I got her a Nintendo DS lite and Brain Trainer... mentally she's a year YOUNGER than me...

 

It did sound like a motherlike telling off - now for a motherlike 'could do better' speech go back and tidy your room read my comment to your question about respecting yoyo's post as history ...

[Guest end3]

Thanks Alice,

 

It is highly likely deist is correct, as I fly by my a-- sometimes, but I have experienced belief not as an intervening to override my responsibility, but intervenings of different understandings that enable me to make better choices. I had premarital sex, I did a lot of things, but if I had to do it over, I would choose differently knowing some of the understandings I have learned through Christianity.

 

I looked it up, I would catagorize myself a theist, as I believe revelations occur.

[Alice]

that choosing to do some things differently if you had your time over - lots of people call that hindsight.

[Legion]

End I make choices about whose understanding I will lean on. This requires a measure of wisdom in estimation. Seeing as I lack understanding, it may be that they lack it also.

 

We are all learning in my estimation. And what is learning but the movement from one understanding to another?

[Japedo]

Hans, Japedo, and probably others, (and I probably misread you last post LR), but they have taken responsibility without acknowledgement to God. My thoughts were, why is it not ok to take personal responsibility within the idea of God. You don't have to respond, there are many answers....

 

Well end I'm a strong advocate of personal responsibility no matter what (If any) dogma one follows. I never said it wasn't okay for people to have an idea of God. If the concept of God works for you great, that's wonderful. The concept doesn't suit me personally. You have your road I have mine.

 

I do have issues however with some of the scott-free mentality that goes with the dogma.

 

Example:

 

Christians who have wronged people and who have admitted to wronging people who believe their wrong against these people is null n' void because of some prayer without fixing the problem or issue with the victim who was wronged. This is where religion allows for a free pass in responsibility. I don't believe god (*IF* he were to exist) has the power to forgive a crime or wrong not against him.

 

I believe many in churches lack both empathy and personal accountability because they have a free pass if they only feel sorry enough after the fact. That's all that's required, God wipes all the slates clean without any justice on behalf of the victims. Be it Theft, gossip, adultery and the like. The people wronged get what? Screwed again is what, while the people who committed the wrong wash their conscious clean without even so much as an effort to make the wrong right with the person. I have always had huge issues with this mentality that runs rampant thru most dogmas. I have also seen victims of crimes or atrocity's have it brushed off by dogma followers as it being the will of god, and for them to just deal and pray to feel better. I say bullshit to that mentality it is forcing victims to stay victims and to just allow themselves to be doormats.

 

I'd like to also in the interests of Justice bring up the get out of hell free card as well. Again, those who are strong enough to question are evil enough to burn forever. This again is not justice in any sense of the word. All the believers have to do is believe it and turn their brains off to have ever lasting life. While the Atheist who may have been a wonderful humanitarian and gave of themselves via time and money et al who are burned and tortured without reprieve in the mindset of the dogma. It's stupidity's and gross injustices like this that bother me. The god I follow would have to at the very least be AT LEAST as justice orientated as myself, if it's a god he better have higher standards to those who don't agree with him then I have. I could never worship or follow any god or dogma which advocates death and destruction for people who doubt or disagree and give a free pass to everyone who ass kisses no matter how evil their crimes or hearts. It seems pretty simple to me, but then again I'm not enslaved to a deity.

[Guest end3]

Then I am not sure what all the fuss is over. Ignorance, discrimination, all of the above, I am sure it occurs and falls within my assessment of real. I just don't feel, within the realm of humanity, and largely nature for that matter, these things are things in which I would wish to participate. Christianity supports that for me today.

 

Are all atheist/non-believers evil, amoral, crapheads like GH? No.

And I feel not all Christians, or whatever religion, fall into the idiot Christian mode.

[Antlerman]

He got a girl pregnant at 17. He went to speak to the Pastor about 'being saved' and the purpose of life. He asked many questions that put him psychologically in the suicidal bracket, from what the police said. The Pastor could not answer his questions straight. He got confused, frustrated, disoriented; he stopped coming around. Next time we saw him, there was a shyness about him, a scared sorta look on his face; this I noticed without God as my zeal for life. I didn't say anything other than whats up.

 

He had a party at his house and shot himself in the head with a shotgun. I didn't understand why that Pastor just let him go. He should have seen the signs, but he must have been to busy to notice. Maybe thats my past experiences that are lingering deep inside of me that causes me to come to this site. An unanswered question about life took my friends life. Underneath my daily thoughts, knowledge, reason, maybe, a part of a traumatic circumstance causes me to look to a God for answers and not give up until I get them. Maybe during conversion to a follower of Christ; the personal experiences that have impacted my daily life, has cause me to look for God. The human mind is a mystery in itself.

You're making a lot of assumptions and judgments in this. I also see a lot of projecting. You say "An unanswered question about life took my friends life". I see a theme throughout your post focused on that elusive word that I spent a great deal of time dealing with in the sub-theme of this thread, “Answers”

 

“or even trying to seek

answers

hidden deep inside of us; trying to fill the thing all of creation has. An origin.

 

“If a person examines their inner self, they will find the

answers

.”

 

“the Pastor could not

answer

his questions straight”

 

“An

unanswered

question about life took my friends life.

 

“a part of a traumatic circumstance causes me to look to a God for

answers

and not give up until I get them.”

 

Along with this ‘knowing or knowledge”

 

“I've wondered aimlessly trying to see the God that is suppose to

know

when a sparrow falls”

 

“We want to

know

where we came from.”

 

“We want to

know

what is going to happen to us”

The first thing I see is that you assume your friend killed himself because he was motivated the same as you in looking for answers to appease whatever was going on inside of him. Some people in fact do not want the answers: they want to hear something that will make them feel better; that will make fear go away.

 

Did the Pastor fail him? Did he miss the signs? Perhaps so, perhaps he did everything right. Most Pastors, especially those who haven’t gone through a more extensive level of education in accredited schools of divinity, haven't had access to course material dealing with psychology and crisis intervention. “Praying” is all good and fine, having “faith” is all good and fine, but there are times to send that person to a professional for help and not make the arrogant assumption that “God” will make it all good if you only have faith. If they did that, they did fail him.

 

On the other hand, your friend may have not really exposed his vulnerability, and sometimes even the most skilled professional might miss it. Your friend may have already made his choice, and did not want anyone to persuade him otherwise. But I honestly don’t feel someone being told ‘answers’ is the sole fix for something like this. Nor is necessarily being told a ‘direction’. It takes work, effort, support, emotional counseling, etc. Nothing nearly so simple as being told the answer.

 

Frankly, to me the ‘answer’ is the journey of seeking meaning. Of finding your center. There is no answer, and that’s the answer. It's finding yourself in the questions, and becoming at peace with yourself. Is it that people are dissatisfied with who they, with what they see inside that they need to find “the answer”, that they need to hear something other than the frightening realization that there is no answer out there which would leave them stranded alone with themselves? Why can’t we be comfortable with the question?

 

Isn’t this what “faith” is for? To walk without 'knowing' or having the 'answers'?

[Legion]

Are all atheist/non-believers evil, amoral, crapheads like GH? No.

And I feel not all Christians, or whatever religion, fall into the idiot Christian mode.

 

I don't know that I would have characterized Gramps that way. I see him as spikes and razors blades on the outside and cotton candy on the inside. I could kick his ass. He has soft hands.

 

I agree that not all atheists are evil. And I agree that not all Christians are stupid.

[Japedo]

Then I am not sure what all the fuss is over. Ignorance, discrimination, all of the above, I am sure it occurs and falls within my assessment of real. I just don't feel, within the realm of humanity, and largely nature for that matter, these things are things in which I would wish to participate. Christianity supports that for me today.

 

Are all atheist/non-believers evil, amoral, crapheads like GH? No.

And I feel not all Christians, or whatever religion, fall into the idiot Christian mode.

 

 

I agree not all Christians are idiots. I believe many are enslaved to fear and that bothers me but it's not anything I can nor want to control. My husband is a Christian, as is most of my family and friends. It doesn't bother me unless they start pushing the dogma on me then we have words. There are some topics no one dares broach with me, God is one of them. Because I passionately and fervently without equivocation defend my stance and they have no idea how to battle that. I will never allow someone to emotionally try to hoodwink or browbeat me, I call them on it every time. Those who know me know this.

 

I'll disagree with you about Gramps, I don't see him as a Craphead. I see him as having low tolerance for certain topics, I love his free expression although I may not always agree with his delivery. Cutting through the bullshit is sometimes needed Heck I have my own faults that I need to deal with. On a personal note, I adore the hell out of the guy.

[Alice]

Then I am not sure what all the fuss is over. Ignorance, discrimination, all of the above, I am sure it occurs and falls within my assessment of real. I just don't feel, within the realm of humanity, and largely nature for that matter, these things are things in which I would wish to participate. Christianity supports that for me today.

 

Are all atheist/non-believers evil, amoral, crapheads like GH? No.

And I feel not all Christians, or whatever religion, fall into the idiot Christian mode.

 

wow End - way to go to place yourself at the judgemental end of the christian spectrum. On what are you basing your assessment of 'evil and amoral'? because someone has a sharp tongue and an expert handle on the verbal insult? In making these comments you have just participated in the very things you declare you want no part in.

 

Doesn't say much for the level of effective support your christianity provides for you.

[Legion]

End, just to let you know... Gramps is capable of being militant and aggressive without feeling anger or hatred. And I admire that. That is warrior.

[Guest end3]

I am sorry Alice,

 

It was an attempt at dry humor. Yes, sarcasm doesn't do well in cyberspace.

[The-Captain]

Sarcastic or not your comment was way off base End.