Guilty & Terrified

[marie]

I recently walked away, for about the umpteenth time in a row. I keep walking away, going back, walking away, going back, etc. It's been a pattern since I was in about the sixth or seventh grade. I am 28 now.

 

I walked away not from "born again" fundamentalism, but from Catholicism. I am Italian-American, and some of the reason for my last miserable revolution through this revolving door, was cultural.

 

I am absolutely terrified of burning in Hell for my "mortal sins", no matter how many times I walk away. It is because I have had severe chronic problems with obsessive-compulsive disorder all my life (since toddlerhood, many years before I was actually churched- long story as to why I wasn't churched as a newborn). Uh...it's excruciatingly difficult for me to talk about this. It's been months since my latest attempt to make a clean break of it and drop out once and for all. I haven't been able to talk about it outside my home, because I am still having that extreme a time with the endless repeating thoughts about Hell. In fact, I currently can't drive or eat certain foods because of this "vestigial fear of Hell", and it keeps me awake long into the small hours of every night, the constant thoughts of suddenly getting sent there to burn forever.

 

My most recent walk away happened soon after my obsessions and compulsions, which used to be the more classic "contamination" stuff, turned to what the church calls "scrupulosity", and I just couldn't stand all the compulsive confessions and extreme self-denial and mandatory martyr behavior anymore, and I finally just snapped and walked out. I couldn't take sitting through one more torturous Mass feeling like I was going to start screaming and ripping my hair out at any given moment. I had to leave. I just couldn't take any more.

 

I had a lot of reasons for not being able to stand that church anymore. I have some training (aborted due to aforementioned disability) in chemistry and computer programming. I have always tended to be logical-minded, and could just never get myself to believe the doctrines, no matter how desperately hard I repeatedly tried. Another is that I could not force myself to be completely and totally asexual for my whole life, even in thought, all because I am not willing to be "open to life", i.e., have children. Still another reason is sexual, in that my orientation is not completely straight. Other reasons are what I perceive as cruelty and/or hypocrisy among such a high number of Catholics, not just the occasional "bad apples" that they grudgingly admit to growing. Yet another reason is the arrogance and indifference so many parish priests have shown toward me during times of indescribable mental suffering due to my OCD. Yet another reason is just the very doctrine of permanent, inescapable Hell itself. To me, it seems like something some cruel human dictator would make up to exert mind-control on his subjects or something. Finally, learning a little about the historical background of the New Testament (Hellenism, co-opted paganism, Judaic offshoot cults, Mithra, certain aspects of the Roman Empire, etc., etc.) basicly clinched it for me.

 

Out of all of that, though, the biggest problem I have with it is Hell and "mortal sin", partly because of my own obsessions and compulsions, but partly out of profound sorrow at the thought of everyone else I know and love eventually ending up there forever, too, because nobody I know follows old-school orthodox religious traditionalism at all around here.

 

I do not have the typical "Bible Belt" background that a lot of you seem to share. I am a third-generation lifelong resident of a state in the Northeast. Around here, most people are ethnic lapsed Catholics, liberal Episcopalians, "spiritual, but not religious", or just nominal mainline Protestants. I do not come from a religious home or hometown. For these reasons, I almost feel a little out-of-place on groups like this, because my experiences are so different than most of yours.

 

To be honest, I am not an absolute hard-line atheist. I am somewhere between a weak mostly-atheist and a hardcore agnostic. I do not insist that there could never be some sort of higher power out there, beyond the realm of physics or logic. I strongly doubt that anything taught by organized religion is true. I doubt that there are any personalized, anthromorphic deities out there, overseeing us all like a puppetmaster holding the strings to a bunch of slap-happy marionettes. And even though I am not a spiritual person by nature, I do wonder if there could be some sort of power out there that just...is. I don't know.

 

I regularly do brief, secular meditation to try to control my condition and help me sleep better. That's about as close as I get to anything spiritual. But these meditations do not contain any silly New Agery...just psychologically comforting stuff, where you're told to make a "space" for yourself and mentally "go" there, etc., just to get yourself chilled out and de-stressed. Hey...it works for me.

 

I am still feeling quite shaky and afraid for having written out all of this, and even for having joined this site in the first place. I cannot describe the torture of these constant thoughts. But I had to find out if anyone out there would talk to me about this, and hopefully not judge me for it. I really could use a friend right now.

 

I have seen that some practicing Christians frequent this board and attempt to preach at the members who have walked away. I ask you in peace and respect, not to do this to me. You would be triggering another person's painful mental disability if you bring any of it to this thread. Please don't. I've already heard how mortally sinful I am, how "endangered" my "eternal soul" is, etc. I cannot handle hearing that stuff right now; and I'm also not interested in any of C.S. Lewis' Christianity-for-eggheads anymore. Please don't make me sorry I took such a huge step by coming here and talking.

 

Thank you for hosting this space. I am so fortunate to have this place to take this burden off my back for a few minutes. Thank you.

[Deva]

I do not have the typical "Bible Belt" background that a lot of you seem to share. I am a third-generation lifelong resident of a state in the Northeast. Around here, most people are ethnic lapsed Catholics, liberal Episcopalians, "spiritual, but not religious", or just nominal mainline Protestants. I do not come from a religious home or hometown. For these reasons, I almost feel a little out-of-place on groups like this, because my experiences are so different than most of yours.

 

To be honest, I am not an absolute hard-line atheist. I am somewhere between a weak mostly-atheist and a hardcore agnostic. I do not insist that there could never be some sort of higher power out there, beyond the realm of physics or logic. I strongly doubt that anything taught by organized religion is true. I doubt that there are any personalized, anthromorphic deities out there, overseeing us all like a puppetmaster holding the strings to a bunch of slap-happy marionettes. And even though I am not a spiritual person by nature, I do wonder if there could be some sort of power out there that just...is. I don't know.

 

Welcome to Ex-Christian Marie. A lot of us here have struggled at one time with thoughts of hell. There are a few ex-Catholics here as well and not all of us are atheists (including myself). We all have different experiences. The thing we all have in common is complete rejection of Christianity.

 

I hope you will continue to post and express yourself here - this is a great place.

[Tabula Rasa]

To be honest, I am not an absolute hard-line atheist. I am somewhere between a weak mostly-atheist and a hardcore agnostic. I do not insist that there could never be some sort of higher power out there, beyond the realm of physics or logic. I strongly doubt that anything taught by organized religion is true. I doubt that there are any personalized, anthromorphic deities out there, overseeing us all like a puppetmaster holding the strings to a bunch of slap-happy marionettes. And even though I am not a spiritual person by nature, I do wonder if there could be some sort of power out there that just...is. I don't know.

 

Thank you for hosting this space. I am so fortunate to have this place to take this burden off my back for a few minutes. Thank you.

 

Welcome Marie. I can sympathize in regard to Obsessive Compulsion disorder. I have some of it myself mostly checking locks etc.

 

What helps me overcome the fear of hell is this: If there is a God who created the universe(as I think there is), "he" is the absolute transcendent being and isn't some cheap and petty deity who'd make people suffer forever just because they didn't worship him. What would an omnipotent being need or want to be worshipped for? I guess what I believe at the moment is that God's sort of like a cosmic wallflower . "He" creates his "art"(the universe) for his own enjoyment and doesn't care if "he" gets praise for it or not.

 

Don't worry about being prosletized to by the fundies. The only places that they're allowed to do so are the Ex-C/Christian debate boards(The Arena, The Coliseum, and The Lion's Den.). If the mod,s catch them preaching outside of those places, they will get warned and or their posts deleted and if necessary banned.

Again, welcome Marie, and I hope you enjoy your stay here.

Tabula Rasa

[Hineni]

Hello Marie and welcome.

 

As Deva said, many of us have struggled with the thought of hell. Personally, in all the years of study, hell just disappeared from all thought. I realized I was made afraid from the projected fears of others.

 

Slowy walking away, I took charge and broke my invisible chains that the thoughts of others had bound me with...thoughts of the living and the ancient, long dead. The guilt melted away realizing that there's nothing wrong with just being human...making mistakes and then making amends.

 

I started reading Emerson and Thoreau and then I found Thomas Paine's "Age of Reason".... that lead me to Robert Green Ingersoll. I couldn't get enough of Mr. Ingersoll's writings. With all those writings, I found that it demolished the imaginary walls of confined thought and I saw that there was no ceiling.

 

I had read Mark Twain in my younger years, I didn't appreciate him until much later. I found he has something to say and I enjoy his humor.

 

There were many more writings that I had read, but much too much to add to this post. I'll just say that I know peace, now. Even though I struggle with a stress disorder (PTSD), the fear of hell no longer threatens me.

 

Breathe, laugh, be true to yourself and live this one life in the fresh air of this moment. Don't let other's fears be your fears.

 

Not verbatim but quoting:

"If you look into the shadows how can you see the light?"

 

If you feel compelled, please feel free to write. Coming to this site has also added strength to me and I hope with your continued presence, it will also benefit you, as well.

 

Best to you. {{{hugs}}}

 

Hineni

[florduh]

Welcome, Marie.

 

You have made the right choice. You will find here lots of people with similar stories who share what you're feeling and thinking.

 

Things are looking up from this day forward!

 

- Chris

[MonolithTMA]

Welcome Marie! Thanks for posting.

 

There was a good thread a while back about fear of hell: How Do I Get The Fear Of Hell Out Of My Head

 

It may be of help to you. I wish you the best on your life's journey and hope that we can help in some way.

[gradstu09]

Hi Marie. I am a former Catholic too, from the same geographical area, so we also probably share some cultural similarities. If you ever want to talk specifics, I would be more than willing. Some of the dogma and doctrine is very individual to the Church, and I think it produces some 'special' neuroses. I had/have mild OCD tendencies and an overdeveloped conscience that have caused me a lot of grief and pain over my 'sins' through the years. I also had the experience of trying to become 'more' Catholic to try to increase my faith and decrease my fear and guilt. For me, too, deeper learning about Church theology and history are what finally convinced me I needed to walk away. I couldn't be honest with myself and still believe. I felt heartbroken and betrayed that something I had trusted to make me happy and save me was what was hurting me.

 

It is my experience that not believing, not practicing, and freeing oneself of the chains of imposed conscience are three pretty separate endeavours. The last one takes the longest. I have been working on that on and off for about 5 years now, and only recently and with the help of a good therapist am I finally seeing significant progress. It can be done, and I find the rewards make it worth doing, but it definitely hasn't been easy.

 

I am glad you are here; there are a handful of others around who came out of Catholicism, too. Hopefully they will stop by to say hello. You are definitely not alone. Can I ask how you are treating your OCD, with secular therapy or medication, or self-treatment, and how that is working? And could you elaborate on some of the ways Catholicism interacts with your OCD?

[Guest Marty]

You may find this book useful:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Mind-Bible-Believer-...6084&sr=8-1

 

It is written by a psychologist, and he takes apart the methods of mind control the church uses. He talks about how many brands of xtianity not only feed into OCD, but may actually contribute to forming and strengthing the disorder in people raised in the church.

 

I think I have a mellow form of OCD as well. Like Tabula, I mostly check locks and lights, but I have a few other things that pop up from time to time. I work in theatre and recording studios, so these places give me an outlet for my "rituals" before a show, or during the recording process doing the same part, over and over and over and over again. I sometimes wonder if I would have these things if I wasn't raised in the church since birth.

 

Welcome to Ex-C!

[par4dcourse]

The early church used fire since burning to death was (and maybe is) the worst punishment concievable at the time. Fear of fire is a brain stem, primeval function.

Think about it logically. When a subject dies, the body is dead. I don't believe in a soul, but for the sake of argument, is this massless, weightless, invisible "spirit" flammable? Gawd would have to create a body of some kind just to burn it. Since it burns forever, it must be asbestos or something. Since I was taught "a literally burning hell" it has to be someplace physically. The whole fable breaks down under a little rational thought, as do most religious myths.

If you need to worry, you would do better to be concerned about the economy, seperation of church and state, erosion of civil liberties, things you can do something about, not a fairy tale.

[BlueGiant]

Hello and welcome. I'm from a Catholic cultural background (mostly German, and from St. Louis originally, so may be a bit different, but still...), more than willing to talk. It was really hard for me when I first started to leave the church dealing with the mortal sin/fear of hell issues. Don't have an easy way through them, most of it was time.

 

Glad to see you here. If nothing else I wish you luck.

[ShackledNoMore]

Marie,

 

The fear of hell has had you in its grips for long enough. That's one of the worst ills of xianity, IMO.

 

This is also one reason why it takes so long to leave the fold, your pattern may more "on again, off again" than most, but it's not unusual to spend years leaving the church. How do you get out of this unpleasant cycle? My suggestion is to boldly ask the tough questions. Since you've progressed to the point of being somewhere between a hard agnostic and a weak atheist, at least now, you've already done THAT. So read more, both apologetics, if you haven't already gotten a full dose of that, AND importantly, atheist sites/books, agnostic sites/books, sites like ex-c, and maybe material on the history and origins of religions (non apologetic material, or both apologetic and non apologetic and compare). Think about this stuff critically. If the claims of catholicism aren't true then you have no reason to fear hell. I've never read the book Marty suggested, but by it's title and brief description it sounds darn good. Consider also, you fear hell on the chance of having committed some mortal sin (a catholic construct) and not for not having been "born again" (an evangelical protestant construct), or not some non-xian religion's version of a bad afterlife. Why is that? That's how YOU happen to have been conditioned by your upbringing. Pascal's wager would seem pretty silly if I suddenly told you there would be dire consequences in an afterlife unless you stopped eating mushrooms and started playing an hour of Pac Man every day. People seem to frame Pascal's wager in terms of whatever religion they happen to have been born into, even when they start to see it is equally unlikely for their religion to be "true" than for competing cults.

 

By the way, I was raised catholic in childhood and was converted to a pentecostal church in late childhood, before my teens. I was going to suggest that a mortal sin is supposed to be something REALLY BAD, and there wasn't really reason to stress over it, but then it occurred to me that the catholic church might be somewhat warped as to what some could potentially consider to be REALLY BAD (e.g., something as benign as using contraception)--that was never a concern of mine, since I was never an adult catholic. Nevertheless, MOST catholics seem to blithely ignore stuff like that, and don't seem to fear hellfire for having slipped on that condom. Even assuming you were still devout, would you have assumed the couple that may have used a condom would be condemned to hell while the guy who roughs up his wife once in awhile would merely spend a few eons in purgatory? It isn't really logical to think that you're condemned to hell on the basis of mortal sin. I don't know if any of that helps mitigate the fear or not while you deal with this. I also don't know if you process things the same way as I do, but in my book, critical thinking is the biggest enemy of fear.

 

I almost forgot--I don't have proof on hand, but OCD does seem to be pretty common among the devout and the deconverting. I have OC tendencies myself, although it's very minor and doesn't rise to the level of OCD (mostly locked doors and stuff).

 

I wish you the best and hope for you to find your way out of the misery/revolving door.

[marie]

Thank you all for such an outpouring of support. I was so pleasantly surprised by this great response!

 

This response might get a little disjointed and rambly- just trying to sort out some thoughts...

 

The odd thing is that I wasn't exposed to Catholicism in the home. It's not really an issue involving my family at all- it's more that the damage was done to me by the parochial schoolteachers, the catechism classes, the priests, and, later on, the forums at catholic.com.

 

This last cycle of my having gone back to the church before leaving again, happened due to emotionalism gone haywire, I'm embarrassed to say. See, two things had happened to me in rapid succession: First, I had a severe and unexpected physical adverse reaction to medication I was taking for my OCD (I now take no medication at all, because this has happened multiple times over, getting worse every time, no matter how many different meds I'd tried). Then, after just barely escaping that with my health and sanity intact (the ordeal was terrifying), I got into a car accident, all the other person's fault. I messed up my back (which, after nearly 2 years now, is finally mostly healed up), and was really shaken up. So, somehow, in all this emotional topsy-turvy, I became convinced that my having pulled through all this drama and made better again, must have surely been miraculous, and the worst physical pain of the two incidents must have been a "foretaste of Hell". I got all swept up in that emotional experience, and promptly marched myself down to a local parish in the town where I used to work, and that's when they had me hooked again.

 

That lasted around a year, give or take. Before long, though, all the old doubts, flat-out inability to believe it logically, grief and fear and rage over the Hell thing, total dissonance over the sexual stuff, etc., kicked in again, and I began to remember just how much saner, happier and more self-honest I felt when I'd personally ID'ed as an atheist in years past. I remembered all the times I'd walked out and been content and at peace on my own, only to have the guilt/fear complex send me running back again and again.

 

My obsessions and compulsions used to be much milder than this one. This former "scrupulosity" which morphed into "vestigial fear of Hell" after I walked, is the single worst obsession I've ever, ever suffered. It currently has me housebound, unable to work or drive or travel, and just generally messed up worse than Howard Hughes himself. In years before this one, it used to be predictable things like contamination, hypochondriac-type symptoms, almost Tourette-like tics, phrases and numbers I'd have to count and mumble, things that would get stuck in my mind and repeat endlessly, problems reading books normally, yada yada yada. Those things, though, weren't the end of my world. I got through school, including a BA, had a couple of relationships, enjoyed a happy family life at home, had at least a part-time job I enjoyed very much, and just generally functioned.

 

Then, along came this latest revolving-door dance with the church, and all hell broke loose, if you'll pardon the pun...

 

Meanwhile, the guilt over my sexual orientation (technically bi; but there have been certain years in my earlier twenties when I was almost as gay as Ellen herself), and the fact that I am just too afraid to have children for a lot of valid reasons (I want to be able to care for my relatives first and foremost...I don't want to pass on the OCD...I don't have money...I don't want any plus-sized pregnancies ratcheting up my blood pressure, or re-injuring my former bad back...I'm not fit to be a parent in general...I fear a lot of what's going wrong with the world today, etc.), is great. I remember when I first heard the shame trip about having to be "open to life" in order to be sexual, even in marriage. I was sixteen years old; and when I questioned the parochial schoolteacher on this horrible teaching, all she did was yell at me, humiliate me in front of the class, and judge me for not just buying the doctine hook, line and sinker.

 

The horror stories I could tell you about parochial school would curl your hair. People wear those "Recovering Catholic" t-shirts for some very good reasons!

 

Another thought that I never mentioned earlier, is that the concept of Hell and "mortal" sin wasn't the only thing about that religion that I couldn't handle- I had such a total inability to force myself to believe in things like the literal Eucharist (that the bread and wine "mystically" turn into real human flesh and blood), exorcism, all the stuff with Mary appearing in visions to warn little European peasant-children that souls would go to Hell if they didn't pray the Rosary daily, etc., etc.

 

To be honest, there were times when I'd look around me at a Mass, a Catechism class, etc., and think to myself, Are these people all schizophrenic?

 

I didn't mean it in a snarky way. I meant it in total sincerity. I just could not mentally grasp how people could believe in such things. I still can't. I am not capable of belief in the supernatural, no matter how many convoluted logical gymnastics I may try in order to trick myself. I could just never do it.

 

...

 

Oh, yeah: You had asked me whether reading their apologetics, in order to reassure myself that their teachings make no rational sense, might be of some help to me. Unfortunately, stuff like that tends to make OCD worsen. I tried that route in the past, only to have it entrench the fears even further (unlike fundamentalist Protestant apologetics, Catholic apologetics aren't totally irrational all the time. Some of their authors do grasp logic; and although their arguments are some seriously weird leaps, certain strings of them come across sounding plausible in a lot of ways. These people seriously know what they're doing.) I've had better results just sticking to physics textbooks and Carl Sagan.

 

...

 

Thank you all again for being here for me. I seriously feared for the scraps of my mind that are still intact, before I had this place to speak this stuff safely.

[ShackledNoMore]

Having read your second post has clarified that in your particular case, OCD (and most notably the scrupulosity component of OCD) is at the center of your struggles.

 

I concur that in your case, reading catholic apologetics sounds like it would worsen the OCD symptoms: the last thing you want to do is to feed the scrupulosity--that will get you going even when you know full well that the religious basis is counter to all logic (BTW, I've always found the doctrine of transubstantiation to be particularly outlandish, too--plus I also have trouble understanding why people believe such things--I even started a thread on it a few days ago). I still think that it wouldn't hurt to read plenty of rational material that challenges those underlying religious fears, but IMO the primary focus would be battling the OCD.

 

I'm neither a psychologist nor a doctor, but aren't anti-OCD medications and Cognitive Behavior Therapy treatments of choice? I would think that a combination would be the most promising approach, but even after you adverse reaction to the meds, I hope you're in (or continuing) therapy with a qualified specialist. As I say, I don't know much about anti-OCD meds, but I would hope that there are different types of drugs available, hopefully some with fewer or less troubling side effects. I'm also wondering, sort of brainstorming, if it's possible that the hypochondria-like symptoms and OCD itself could be related to your reaction to the meds (to a greater or lesser degree, be it more, less, completely, or not at all), a sort of "medical students disease" if you will. I could be COMPLETELY off base, but if it is a related factor it could be a consideration in your strategy to overcome the OCD. In any case, a GOOD doctor would be the place to look. Out of curiosity, has the doctor said anything about the side effects you've experienced from the medicines? Does s/he think that the drug options have been exhausted?

 

Again, best wishes, I know this is a terrible battle to have to struggle with.

[gradstu09]

It sounds like you might get a lot of Mencken. He has a no-bullshit style that positively eviscerates the various reasons people and society have for religious belief (social control via fear of hell being a main one). Maybe it might help you to realize that your fear, while amplified by the OCD, is actually a desired result of religious belief, and therefore something external which can be resisted apart from whatever internal urges your OCD causes. Treatise of the Gods was a book that had a lot of influence on me.

[marie]

Hi, Shackled-

 

Unfortunately, the psychiatric system has pretty much royally failed me in my need for help. I cannot tolerate the slightest and most gradual dose of any medication they have to offer (and I've truly tried them all, even some way-off-label experiments borne out of desperation). The adverse reactions I had nearly did permanent neurological and metabolic damage, too; and with both diabetes and early-onset Parkinson's in my genetic family, I'm no longer willing to keep spinning that roulette wheel in the hopes of relief.

 

Cognitive-behavioral therapy with exposure-response prevention is something I can't access. The few therapists in my state who do it, all have some lame excuse not to treat me, despite my severity- they stopped taking my insurance plan; they're all booked up; yada fucking yada. This is the only form of psychotherapy proven to be any use at treating this disorder, too.

 

A cingulotomy is out of the question. The success rate is only 30%; and the most common "side effect" is acquired epilepsy. I've promptly sorted this option into the oh-hell-no file.

 

To put the spoiled icing on the whole rotten cake: The last time I went to a local ER, trying to get one single dose of an anti-anxiety med for a particularly rough week, I got mistakenly thrown in the involuntary holding tank, and physically assaulted by a guard who apparently didn't realize that I, as a nonviolent and non-addicted individual, was well within my rights to leave. Could've sued; but was too afraid that some hospital employee would come after my family and myself (all my contact info had already been entered into their database by that point). This incident pretty much totally clinched for me the fact that psychiatry wasn't about to make my troubles any better. I haven't looked back in over a year, and don't intend to do so.

 

...

 

Good Friday and Easter have been triggering. It's been a tough couple of days. I might do a meditation this evening.

 

...

 

I was actually able to peruse a few LGBT websites again, though, for the first time in a long while. I am still feeling unbelievably(sp?) guilty about it, though.

[MonolithTMA]

Good Friday and Easter have been triggering. It's been a tough couple of days. I might do a meditation this evening.

 

This holiday weekend has been a little tougher for me too, though I'm more of a depression and seek comfort in religion rather than an OCD guy. This holiday was the real focus of my faith. I haven't been depressed once since my de-conversion though. It's been 23 days! Woo hoo!

 

Well I won't be praying, but I sure would like to send you tons of good thoughts and any encouragement I can!

[ShackledNoMore]

Sadly, I'm not surprised to hear of the shortcomings of the psychiatric system. Nevertheless, I think it is an outrage that your access to CBT has been blocked. You've already tried the anti-OCD drug, so that means you've visited a psychiatrist for the prescription--I would have hoped that it was his or her JOB to facilitate your getting appropriate treatment.

 

Although I tend to think that psychiatry/psychology in general is in its infancy and I'm not terribly impressed, I firmly believe in and recognize the benefits of scientific inquiry and empirical evidence supported by well designed studies. Since the topic is near and dear to you, you know a LOT more about this than me, but I do know enough to realize that the efficacy of CBT has been demonstrated for OCD, and that it's the obvious way to go.

 

Unfortunately, I'm not terribly good at getting satisfaction from "the system" myself, but those that are seem to be pretty assertive and tenacious while seeking out services, getting resolution to a complaint, etc. Seems like there should be some way, at least in theory, to find an "in" (not for more meds, not for some lame "counseling" at a local clinic by an underqualified therapist with his or her own personal approach and not a lick of a clue of how best to help, but for OCD appropriate therapy from a qualified practitioner). Is it possible to get on a waiting list for one of those few qualified therapists who are booked up? Or would a recommendation from one of the doctors who previously prescribed the medications help? Or do you know anyone familiar with your situation with an "in" to the system that could help champion your quest for a qualified CBT therapist? Is there additional research that can be done on how to get an "in?"

 

I had to look up a cingulotomy. I definitely agree that it sounds like the LAST option one would ever consider pursuing. I can't imagine any ethical, reputable surgeon being willing to do it except in extraordinary cases and after EVERY option had been fully pursued and been unsuccessful.

 

As for the LGBT websites and the lesbian and/or bisexual interests, well, you already know how warped the church is on matters of sexuality. One of the biggest atrocities of the church is its horribly unhealthy and damaging sexual mores. I don't need to be gay to recognize what kind of damage the anti-gay agenda waged by the church has wrought upon countless individuals and society at large. You can rest assured that there is nothing inherently "sinful" or "wrong" about one's orientation and there isn't any more reason to feel guilt about THAT than there is to fear hell!

[pitchu]

Welcome, Marie, and do let us know how you're doing after this religiously laden weekend.

[marie]

Shackled, unfortunately, no, I don't know the right people to get in. I've also asked some of these therapists if they have waiting lists, and, apparently, they don't allow it.

 

It's enough to make a person very, very cynical at times. "Helping", "healing" professions, my neurotic ass!

 

Anyway...yeah, it has been difficult admitting to myself my orientation, too. I still feel disgust and shame at it, on top of the fear. I've been told that something I can't help being is "an abomination" and "intrinsically disordered" and, the old Catholic standby, "mortally sinful" for so long now, I hear it in my sleep.

 

Years ago, when I had previously walked away and not been beset by all these obsessions and compulsions around it, I used to belong to the local queer community center. I had been out to everyone who knew/knows me. Now, I am completely closeted again, and it's all because of my having reverted to that church that last time I mentioned before- the time after the medication reaction and the accident. It's amazing what emotions will do to a person.

 

All the logic and physics and psychology of religion in the world isn't helping. I can't beat this programming, no matter what I do.

[pitchu]

Marie,

 

Fifty women contributed to this book. I know nothing more about it, but it might be something for you to look into:

 

http://www.skeptic.de/index.php?action=boo...;articleno=0429

 

"The Recovering Catholic -- personal journeys of women who left the church"

[Grandpa Harley]

CBT for Dummies...

 

One of the best damned resources short of a therapist...

 

For the more seriously afflicted

 

Dialectical Behavior Therapy again a good solitary workbook for those who can't find or afford a DBT therapist...

[marie]

That book about the women who left was pretty interesting. I read about it on Amazon. The CBT book sounds good; but I already own something quite similar- Hyman & Pedrick's OCD Workbook.

 

DBT is for borderline personalities, something that doesn't apply to me.

 

Thanks, though, for the links.

[Guest eejay]

Hi Marie, Thanks for sharing your story. I am a former catholic and from the northeast myself. I never could understand the doctrines and teachings of the church as long as I can remember, but I walked away from it before I ever made my confirmation. I hated mass, the whole confession thing was ridiculous and I found myself disappointed that god really didn't like women. I never wanted children and refused to live a celibate life which is what the church expected if I chose not to bear children. I've feared hell, but probably not to the extent that you mentioned, but I can't say it's never bothered me. I guess it's always been in my nature to question everything and I just couldn't get a good answer as to why everything sexual was so bad and sinful. Because god says so??? Well, then why did he create us with that desire??? I've gone round and round on those questions and just decided it wasn't worth the time and energy to worry about it. The best thing I think you can do is to be true to yourself and if that means your have desire to be with a person of your gender, than so be it. I certainly do not fit into any mold and could break any cookie cutter and you know what? I will never try to be somebody else or live up to the expectations of someone else or their religion. When you can do this, you will much happier. And when you can lose the guilt and fear, which was deliberately planted by the church anyway, you will realize that you really are okay. Back when I was searching for answers there wasn't any internet or places like this where I could look for support. That left people like myself without an opportunity to discuss these things so we just held them in longer. And yeah I can remember myself in church looking at other people, wondering how they could really be gullible enough to believe the whole thing. Makes me laugh now. I think you'll eventualy get everything figured out to where you're comfortable with your lifestyle. Just be yourself.

[marie]

Thanks for sharing your story with me, eejay. It sounds like you know of a lot of the things I'm talking about. I'm glad to hear that your experiences haven't been so extreme, though- you're not missing much!

 

Yeah, I had trouble with their sexual restrictions long before it ever applied to me personally (or, at least, before I realized it). And I've just never been able to believe most of the doctrines in general, either. I think that, out of my whole life, I've been a true believer for only two brief years- ages ten and eleven, before which I had no religion (I was churched at age 9 1/2, not birth), and after which, I started to doubt, question and struggle with the long road out of there. I was twelve years old when I first heard them tell me that sex outside of marriage was a sin. I was shocked. I couldn't imagine why they would say such a thing about something that's programmed into most animal species naturally. I could understand sexual ethics- e.g., not cheating on a partner, not exposing a partner to an STD, not abusing a partner, etc. But to say that there was something inherently shameful and bad about something as natural as eating and breathing all one's life, changing bodily shape at puberty, needing sunlight and a predictable regular amount of sleep? I just couldn't believe they could say such a thing, even at twelve. I was horrified.

 

My shock was only compounded when they started in with the "open to life", "called to chastity", "intrinsically disordered", "NFP (a.k.a. glorified rhythm method of birth control) songs and dances. It just all seemed so cruel and sick, I used to walk out of those mandatory religion classes feeling like I'd been repeatedly slugged in the stomach.

 

The most horrifying part of it all, for me, is when they actually barge into the realm of people's innermost thoughts, feelings and fantasies by forbidding anyone to do so much as fantasize or relieve themselves in the privacy of their own bedrooms while single and celibate. To this day, that just floors me. What is a person with a normal, healthy adult bodily drive supposed to do- go completely insane from the torturous frustration?

 

Apparently, yes, because the only answers I'd ever gotten to that last question were that those of us with the misfortune to find ourselves in such a situation were "called" to "offer up [our] suffering for the Poor Souls in Purgatory" or "unite our sufferings to Christ", or, if we truly couldn't stand another day of it, "discern marriage", meaning, attempt once again to figure out whether we could handle being boxed into a lifelong, unbreakable marriage and automatic built-in parenthood.

 

Even despite the pervasiveness of my fear right now, I can manage to say out loud that I truly feel that the men who came up with such heinous "teachings" were absolute brutes.

 

...and don't even get me started on some of the sick behavior the Catholic Church actively praises and rewards in its canonized "saints". Hair shirts? Rolling around naked in briars and snow to "conquer lust"? Begging for Christ to increase their suffering?

 

It's all so sick. It's just twisted and horrid and a thousand different kinds of disgusting.

 

It is such an enormous relief to have a place like this to say such things, without having to apologize or sugarcoat anything at all. eejay, I'm sure you know what I mean when I say that a person just isn't allowed to say such things openly in the Northeast- at least, nowhere but on a university campus. Everywhere else, you're supposed to just quietly do your own thing while hypocritically paying lip service to the Catholic Church. I honestly wonder how many locals around here feel the same damn way I do, and have just been cowed into never speaking up. I suspect the number is quite high.

[elana]

Hi Marie!

 

Welcome. It was hard for me to read your post as too much of it sounded very familiar. But I wanted to let you know that I understand your fears. I was never diagnosed as OCD but was diagnosed with clinical depression & high anxiety. Unfortunately, it took almost 30 years before I actually found out what was wrong & found medications that helped along with a decent therapist. (One that WASN'T a christian.)

 

I can also tell you that a great deal of my anxiety & fear were church related. At the age of 8 I was told by a Sunday School teacher that I was going to hell, if I didn't give my heart & mind to Jesus. He then went on to describe the 'fiery pit of hell' along with the horrible suffering to a room full of children. (Some as young as 5.) For a week after that, I had nightmares every night about demons, hell & Jesus who would end up wearing demonic horns at the end of my dream.

Of course, living in an extremely dysfunctional, religiously insane family didn't help. Their views on sex were just as messed up as the Catholic Church's even though we were Baptists. (My mother chastised & then spanked me at age 5 for catching me in bed without my underwear & then told me Jesus would not love me if I did that again.)

 

I could go on with the horror stories, but there isn't room, and I'm not replying to you to bore you with my awful childhood stories. I just wanted to let you know that you are not alone, and that there is a light at the end of the tunnel and it isn't a train. I can't relate as well to your troubles with OCD because I've never dealt with that, but I can relate to your 'religious insanity'. For me the turn around came when I got angry enough to tell God that I didn't CARE anymore if I went to hell. My line of thinking was if hell is supposed to be SOOOOOOOOO horrible that our feeble human minds can't comprehend it, and if it's comprehesion is beyond me then WHY SHOULD I FEAR IT?!! There is nothing to fear if I can 't understand it.

 

Of course my other thought was if God is supposed to be so awesomely intelligent, WHY would he create these places of reward and punishment and then create us so we couldn't comprehend either place?

 

I don't know how much history on the formation of the Christian church you have read, but this is something else that has helped me a great deal. Once I read how the Church hiearchy came up with a lot of these 'idiot' ideas that they call 'gospel' and when they came up with it on a historical timeline, I realized that this was just the RCC's way of keeping the people under their control. I came to the conclusion that their 'dogma' has about as much solidity behind it as a pile of whipped cream.

 

Well, I didn't mean to ramble. I hope this helps & I know this site will be a great help to you. It has for me.

 

elana