Ouroboros Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 http://www.amazon.com/Extraordinary-Popula...s/dp/051788433X The definitive work on the subject... I think that's the one I read a couple of years ago. Mackay sounds familiar. I might have the eBook somewhere... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted March 21, 2008 Author Share Posted March 21, 2008 There were hundreds of bloody messiahs, with all sorts of numbers of followers... to claim uniqueness is just excrement... Simon of Gitta was a better Messiah than Jesus... I know. Acts 5:36 36 For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought. (KJV) Peter killed this man. Correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Je...and_Reliability covers the current state of affairs on the Tacitus issue... I read that as well, though if you keep reading it says that a vast majority of scholars consider it authentic. It may well be the case... but let us follow that link, shall we? http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/tacitus.html I understand your direction of the piece Grandpa, but I ask you this. If this is not accurate, then was the 'cease fire' on Christians accurate from Constantine I? Yes since there are numerous sources, written by Constatine's historians at the time and in the Vatican, in original form pretty much, not some 14th redact... basically constantine was tired of them killing each other and decieded to make them sit down, sort out their differences and let the 'official' church wipe out th e losers porperly... which is the historic record as it happened... Anathasius of Alexandria was a bloody handed tyrant and the Bishops of Jerusalem were wiped out to a man for being James-Thomas not Paul-Peter... it's a time you should be proud of, being an apologist... all was unified and pacified... by use of torture, mass execution and redaction of History... took em another 1100 years to sort out which books of the bible supported what was decided at Nicea... and a lot more blood... strange how a 'religion of peace' involves so much killing and striving for temporal power... to the point of forging wills and forcing people on pain of death to join... but then, Eusebeus' greatest trick was to manage to take the communist teachings of an anarchist terrorist into a relgion that would rule an Empire... but I'm wasting my time responding to you, since you're as bad for making up pretty lies to cover up the seething corrutpion that lies at the heart of your beleifs and between your ears... So basically then; the Christian God in Christ is the same God of the OT. He would raise someone up to lead the people, performing a variety of things to show Himself to the people and then lead them to successful battles, wars, population and religious culture. The only 'difference' is that Jesus, Rome, Christianity is a majority religion in a relatively uneventful environment religiously. Other than the Israel-Palestine still warring amongst each other. Basically, Christianity has evoloved to a civilized, controlled entity among America as well as still having sects; as did the old days of Judaism. Actuially if you look at what was winnowed out on the blood of dissenters at nicea, that is what Christianity was designed to do out of the box... Prior to Niceas there were numerous competing sects, not one of which looked like the version of Christianity Post-Nicea. The Trinity is a melding of Tarsean Triune Gods with the Eastern 'Messianic Judeasim' as preached by the Dysposini, along with Marcionite thought and Ariansim... you smash the lot to gether in such a way that it's not much effort on the part of people who wanted to die of old age in their own bed to adopt, and rendered the die hards (pun intended) hereitic to a man, who were also wiped out 'to a man'... for one version of that taleI'd point the interested to "When Jesus Became God:..." by Richard E. Rubenstein. Not that I'm expecting Yoyo to read it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skankboy Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 In that, whether he rose from the dead or just died; he impacted the people of in that time to where it became the religion of religions. Did Osiris rise from the dead? Did this god influence his followers that he was all, and everything else is from evil? Did this god exert its power crushing the Christian movement to nothing? No. The opposite happened, in connection with the Roman Government; the ones that I might add that mainly worshiped this god. I think you're confusing fortunate timing in the development of Christianity with divine aid of some sort. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world today. Is Allah exerting his power to crush the Christian movement? Again, current popularity is NOT a factor in determining truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted March 21, 2008 Author Share Posted March 21, 2008 Maybe so Hans, Wr, Gramps. But no matter 'who' the real joe is; it is can not be denied that the Christian movement has gone far beyond 'magicians' and has been one of the leading religions, movements known to man. So whether it was Jim the butcher, or Joe the tax collector doing the miracles; I would assume by simple rationality that whatever happened impacted the Roman government, the people of Rome, leaders of Rome, eventually to the succession of the first Christian emperor; then worldwide. Yoyo. There's no denying that Islam has gone far beyond just a movement of believing in a schizophrenic and epileptic so called prophet. Islam is of the same size as Christianity. About 2.1-2.2 Billion people. Do you really say that the majority delusion must be true because of it's masses of people supporting it? Was the dot-net boom some years ago a correct assumption balloon or was it the false assumption from the masses that there was some kind of "New Economy" floating around and the market would only go up, and up, and up to fantasy numbers, increasing with 200% a month? The masses aren't right, they're a mob, and that is known to be one of the dangers of democracy, it's good and bad, but don't assume it is always right. I am aware of Islam practice and popularity. Between Christianity and Islam, There aren't much more people. These two religions are so close to, its no wonder why they haven't combined. The whole Son of God, trinity kills it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 There were hundreds of bloody messiahs, with all sorts of numbers of followers... to claim uniqueness is just excrement... Simon of Gitta was a better Messiah than Jesus... I know. Acts 5:36 36 For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought. (KJV) Peter killed this man. Correct? Nope... seems to have died of old age... there was quite a cult in Rome to the man... there have been statues found not a popular subject since it flies inthe face of Acts. There is one scholaraly view that the Simon of Gitta figure in Acts is satire on Paul... but Simon actually won some battles with Rome. Then there are massive parallels with the cult of Imhotep in Egypt: the one commoner to be given God status after his death. Healer, inventor of the Doric Column... up until the Islamic conquest of Egypt people went to his tomb to be healed... you really shouldn't try and use the Bible as a history... it's not and it makes you look stupid and wastes my time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Maybe so Hans, Wr, Gramps. But no matter 'who' the real joe is; it is can not be denied that the Christian movement has gone far beyond 'magicians' and has been one of the leading religions, movements known to man. No one here is denying that. Why would we? History proves that just fine, and we don't have to go all the way back to Tacitus for evidence of it. Osiris was an Egyptian god worshipped from 2400BC to about 6th century A.D. Does the longevity of his religion make the god Osiris real? Longevity and popularity (both genuine and governmentally enforced) of religion doesn't make a god real. People are taught religion as though the god came first, and the religion followed, but history indicates the religions started first, and defined gods as they developed. The more complex the religion, the more complex (or numerous) the gods. Maybe the Egyptian God died. Maybe he went into the body of a swine and drowned. Obviously, along with the Christian movement in that era of time, the newly acquired knowledge of 'demons' was introduced, Biblically. Christianity, though not tied into Judaism, became a separate entity of belief, yet following the same God as the Jews. So. Your explanation of the THOUSANDS of "gods" other that the ONE you happen to worship is "demons". What makes YOUR god NOT a demon too? Christ merely expounded on the notion that anything other than God is of Satan. Really? Please quote book, chapter, and verse. Wait. Let me save you some damn time. Jesus never said anything even close to that. Not one direct jesus quote in the bible saying any such thing. And don't even try Mark 8:33 on us, or it's match in Matthew. In context, Peter's rebuke is for Jesus playing fortune-teller by predicting the future, something that could very well get him killed according to Mosaic Law, and Jesus is poetically rebuking Peter's cowardly fear of mortality: 31He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. 33But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. "Get behind me, Satan!" he said. "You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men." So where are you getting this idea that Jesus taught that anything not of god is of satan? Because it sure isn't supported by any direct quote from Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 I am aware of Islam practice and popularity. Between Christianity and Islam, There aren't much more people. These two religions are so close to, its no wonder why they haven't combined. The whole Son of God, trinity kills it. That's not an answer. That's just an observation. Why do you consider Mohammad not to be a true prophet and gone to heaven? After all, his claims are no more supernatural than the Bible stories. And the number of followers is the proof of its truthfulness. Is it not? If it was false, how come they have so many followers, and they even die for their belief? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skankboy Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 That's not an answer. That's just an observation. Why do you consider Mohammad not to be a true prophet and gone to heaven? After all, his claims are no more supernatural than the Bible stories. And the number of followers is the proof of its truthfulness. Is it not? If it was false, how come they have so many followers, and they even die for their belief? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 After this discussion I really do feel like I need a beer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 That's not an answer. That's just an observation. Why do you consider Mohammad not to be a true prophet and gone to heaven? After all, his claims are no more supernatural than the Bible stories. And the number of followers is the proof of its truthfulness. Is it not? If it was false, how come they have so many followers, and they even die for their belief? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 And I get the princess in the end!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 And I get the princess in the end!!! what you do on your own time I don't want to know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 I like smileys... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Lets just say that the passage is authentic i.e. written by Tacitus himself. Lets assume that the passage made it intact through its various copyists and no monks fiddled with it. Given this what does it show? That there were Christians is what it shows. It doesn't show that Christus was or was not a real person any more than a passing reference to Cargo Cultists shows whether John Frum was or was not a real person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted March 22, 2008 Author Share Posted March 22, 2008 I am aware of Islam practice and popularity. Between Christianity and Islam, There aren't much more people. These two religions are so close to, its no wonder why they haven't combined. The whole Son of God, trinity kills it. That's not an answer. That's just an observation. Why do you consider Mohammad not to be a true prophet and gone to heaven? After all, his claims are no more supernatural than the Bible stories. And the number of followers is the proof of its truthfulness. Is it not? If it was false, how come they have so many followers, and they even die for their belief? I don't know. Maybe because I live in America. I'm sure if I was born over there, Islam would be influential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 22, 2008 Share Posted March 22, 2008 I don't know. Maybe because I live in America. I'm sure if I was born over there, Islam would be influential. If you were born in Iran, you most likely would be a Muslim. So think about that. No way of hearing the "truth" about the Bible, and even if you did, you would reject it because Islam would be the only "truth" you would consider. We are formed by culture, family and so on, and many of the things we know and believe are just by pure chance that you or I happened to be at that instance in time and learn and experience this or that, and form our opinion and knowledge of it. It's highly likely that if you had gone through my life, you would sit at the same spot as me right now, and argue against Christian apologetics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted March 22, 2008 Author Share Posted March 22, 2008 I don't know. Maybe because I live in America. I'm sure if I was born over there, Islam would be influential. If you were born in Iran, you most likely would be a Muslim. So think about that. No way of hearing the "truth" about the Bible, and even if you did, you would reject it because Islam would be the only "truth" you would consider. We are formed by culture, family and so on, and many of the things we know and believe are just by pure chance that you or I happened to be at that instance in time and learn and experience this or that, and form our opinion and knowledge of it. It's highly likely that if you had gone through my life, you would sit at the same spot as me right now, and argue against Christian apologetics. Yes. I know Hans. But, I was born here, and have a choice about the matter. And I personally think that God will hold to my culture, and them to their culture. I don't know what category of religion that puts me, but I believe Christ was the Son of God, the messiah of Judaism; and the one that would spread the Gospel to all people. Muhammad, I don't just put away. He may be this last seal of the prophets, and join Isa in the end battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 22, 2008 Share Posted March 22, 2008 Yes. I know Hans. But, I was born here, and have a choice about the matter. And I personally think that God will hold to my culture, and them to their culture. I don't know what category of religion that puts me, but I believe Christ was the Son of God, the messiah of Judaism; and the one that would spread the Gospel to all people. Muhammad, I don't just put away. He may be this last seal of the prophets, and join Isa in the end battle. But you forgot Rael who were called by Elohim, from space, the alien race that want to make contact and peace with us. He met the aliens in the 70's and he tells his followers that Elohim explained how all the religions we know about ties together, and that they all are images of the aliens. It was them who created us by making the DNA that became us. He only got some hundred thousands of followers... and they're growing... The only thing they want is a neutral place somewhere on the planet where they can build the interstellar embassy and the aliens will come to us and lead us into eternal peace. Who knows, maybe they're right? And what about Xeno who is entrapped in the north pole (I think it was) and the thetans that possess our bodies? Shouldn't we try to use the e-meters to remove them, as the Scientologists claim? When it comes to human imagination and delusion, we truly beat the animals with light years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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