Closet Atheist With Aspergers Syndrome Needs Help Convincing Parents That Religion Is Bull.

[Guest Diagnosis Aspergers]

The mental thing i've got destroys any social prowess whatsoever and changes the came considerably. My folks are fundies (in the sense of interperting the bible literally), but too lazy to be really hardcore about it. They trust me completely, though. Having no research skills or social ability, i'd like you guys to give some material to show them when I grow the balls to breach the subject. Er, thanks in advance, I guess.

 

If it helps my livejournal is http://betaobsession.livejournal.com/

[Legion]

Welcome DA.

 

Why do you feel that it's necessary to confront them?

[mwc]

The mental thing i've got destroys any social prowess whatsoever and changes the came considerably.

If you're really an aspie odds are you're a pain in the ass. Stop being a pain in the ass. Does that help any?

 

Also, you should be able to really research this quite well, if you're truly given your mind to it, as that is also an aspie trait but not really caring what others think is as well. So there must be another reason you want to get involved...if that's really your motivation. Perhaps you're just curious about some aspect of the religion and the "intervention" is just the excuse to get that info?

 

Literal interpretations are right up your alley so if I had to guess it would have to be the why your parents believe in this stuff at all (as your title suggests) as opposed to the literal/fundie view (since a believing aspie would likely go for that instead of an allegorical view).

 

So what is it that you really want to know?

 

mwc

[Evolution_beyond]

The mental thing i've got destroys any social prowess whatsoever and changes the came considerably.

If you're really an aspie odds are you're a pain in the ass. Stop being a pain in the ass. Does that help any?

 

Also, you should be able to really research this quite well, if you're truly given your mind to it, as that is also an aspie trait but not really caring what others think is as well. So there must be another reason you want to get involved...if that's really your motivation. Perhaps you're just curious about some aspect of the religion and the "intervention" is just the excuse to get that info?

 

Literal interpretations are right up your alley so if I had to guess it would have to be the why your parents believe in this stuff at all (as your title suggests) as opposed to the literal/fundie view (since a believing aspie would likely go for that instead of an allegorical view).

 

So what is it that you really want to know?

 

mwc

 

Is it me or does this show deep misunderstanding and ignorance of Aspergers - and a certain amount of intolerance too?

[mwc]

Is it me or does this show deep misunderstanding and ignorance of Aspergers - and a certain amount of intolerance too?

Replace "intolerance" with "frustration" and you'll gain the insight needed to solve the puzzle on your own.

 

But to help you on your way you can check the basic list from most anywhere. Here's from mayoclinic.com:

* Engaging in one-sided, long-winded conversations, without noticing if the listener is listening or trying to change the subject

* Displaying unusual nonverbal communication, such as lack of eye contact, few facial expressions, or awkward body postures and gestures

* Showing an intense obsession with one or two specific, narrow subjects, such as baseball statistics, train schedules, weather or snakes

* Appearing not to understand, empathize with, or be sensitive to others' feelings

* Having a hard time "reading" other people or understanding humor

* Speaking in a voice that is monotonous, rigid or unusually fast

* Moving clumsily, with poor coordination

* Having an odd posture or a rigid gait

 

Intense obsession in a narrow subject or two. Can't empathize. Also, depending on the author, Asperger's is right on par with other high functioning autistic spectrum disorders and as such, they tend to take things quite literally (until learned/taught otherwise). For example this Google Book preview. Or maybe better. I won't belabor the point. These things are easy to locate for yourself.

 

Now I would have tried getting the info from the AFF website but the wiki is all messed up right now. The forums are still working but the info wasn't quite so handy there.

 

Of course, this is a very broad brush to paint with but when someone simply says "I have X" then that's all one can do. I have Tourette's. People think I swear and flail about when I mention it...until I say otherwise. That's how it goes.

 

So, yeah, I was terse. But I've learned to be terse when speaking to people who claim to be an aspie until I get to know them. Beating around the bush tends to get me nowhere fast.

 

mwc

[Evolution_beyond]

Explain how the following:

 

* Engaging in one-sided, long-winded conversations, without noticing if the listener is listening or trying to change the subject

 

* Appearing not to understand, empathize with, or be sensitive to others' feelings

 

* Having a hard time "reading" other people or understanding humor

 

 

Can't empathize.

 

equates with not caring what other people think?

 

Or why it gives you justification for saying that someone should "stop being a pain in the arse" when it's something they can't really help?

 

I get that you're frustrated. Do you think Aspies don't also get frustrated - not to mention feeling alienated and being prone to depression?

 

Not being able to read social cues or pick up on the emotions of others does not mean that people with Aspergers don't have feelings of their own.

[gradstu09]

I agree with evo_beyond. Being to the point does not mean you had to be outright rude to the kid.

[Legion]

I think there might be some value in MWC's directness.

[Max]

but back to your original issue, do you really need to confront your parents. I don't think we have statistics on this here, but a lot of us just let others have their beliefs to keep the peace. I'm in that crowd. My parents are (my Dad just passed away, so I guess that's a 'was' now) very religious and conservative. I never saw where there was anything to be gained in my trying to discuss this with them. They'd be upset, I'd be upset, and no good would come of it. So I just let it ride. As long as they don't push the issue, I don't either.

 

This basically says it:

Wisdom is learning what to overlook.

- William James

[Legion]

This basically says it:

Wisdom is learning what to overlook. - William James

I've heard it put slighty differently. Wisdom is knowing which battles to fight.

[florduh]

Welcome. I have a nephew with your condition and can relate to what you go through.

 

Regarding your question, you don't need to convince your folks that religion is bull, only that it has no value for you personally. You have looked at the religion question, observed it in action, and thought about it. Conclusion: It's not for you.

 

Good luck,

- Chris

[mwc]

Explain how the following:

[snip]

I had typed up a fairly long response to this but scrapped it (I've been here long enough for people to know I can type out a lengthy message if I want to). I felt no desire to continue down the rabbit trail.

 

I think it's clear there was no gross misrepresentation of aspies on my part but, at best, a "tone" issue when I made my post.

 

mwc

[hereticzero]

It is almost impossible to convince someone their view on religion is 'wrong' as I am not sure whose view is the correct one ... People more receptive to no religion are those who are already looking for their own way out of the church. If your parents are comfortable or just don't care about if the religion is true or false, they won't listen to you anyway. Most people don't care if the religion they worship under is false so long as they belong to a religious group because it gives them comfort. Karl Marx said that religion was the opiate of the masses--it lulls them to sleep while the rest of the world is in turmoil. Religion gives one a false sense of security in times of dire stress. This comfort is what many people today are looking for.

[Eric_PK]

The mental thing i've got destroys any social prowess whatsoever and changes the came considerably. My folks are fundies (in the sense of interperting the bible literally), but too lazy to be really hardcore about it. They trust me completely, though. Having no research skills or social ability, i'd like you guys to give some material to show them when I grow the balls to breach the subject. Er, thanks in advance, I guess.

 

If it helps my livejournal is http://betaobsession.livejournal.com/

 

You can't use logic to argue somebody out of a position that they didn't use logic to get into in the first place.

 

My experience is that unless people are open and inquiring, they usually react to such discussions with fear and anger, and life is too short. As somebody else mentioned, they'll end up angry, you'll end up angry, and neither side will change their position.

[Guest Diagnosis Aspergers]

It's not a dire thing that needs to happen soon or else my life is over. My parents have complete trust in me, and I think they would consider what I would show them. It's mainly a matter of hiding and not being able to discuss some hobbies and interests because they don't mesh well with traditional Christian values. My entire clan thinks i'm a good Christian bloke, up to my fundamentalist, former pastor and now missionary grandparents. I already have some material assembled, like links and Winston Wu's debunking document. I'd just like tips on how to apply them if I (and its a big IF) ever confront my folks.

 

My links:

http://www.pocm.info/

http://www.atheistresource.co.uk/history.html

[Sparrow]

Hi DA,

 

Honestly, it is unlikely you'll convince your parents that god doesn't exist with argument, evidence or diatribe (good or bad). As you may have seen in yourself, atheism is a conclusion you ultimately come too because of personal investigation and careful consideration. Essentially, you've gone through a process that delivers and undeniable conclusion.

 

Additionally, people, even very, very smart people, have a set of blinkers when it comes to belief. Unless you produce the right information, at the right time, in the right way, it's unlikely you'll even get them start thinking that what they believe may be wrong.

 

Some research was once conducted about how and why and when people "re-evaluate" decisions they've made in their lives. To cut a long story short, the results were that most people only re-evaluate their lives maybe once or twice. The only other time they do is in life threatening situations or situations that give hard, undeniable, life changing experiences.

 

If your parents are as fundy and lazy as you say they are, then it is, sorry to say, extremely unlikely that you'll convince them the "god is an illusion". On top of this, no one likes have their pet beliefs insulted and told it's rubbish.

 

Godd luck, whatever you decide to do.

 

Spatz

[Amethyst]

You are probably not going to be able to convince your parents to agree with you and deconvert unless they were on the verge of deconverting anyway. The best most people get is tolerance and acceptance from their families.

[Mongo]

Welcome DA and sorry for the flack. I think people are having a hard time expressing themselves - maybe they're having a hard time putting themselves in your shoes.

 

Before addressing the issue, I'm very curious why you make such a clear identification with aspurgers. There are many people on the web with many ailments and very few make a point of using a disability(disability??? Perhaps difficulty - rather than inability) to communicate their essence. (Said Mongo who is anything but a a burly dope. )

 

Nonetheless, by putting your diagnosis front and centre, many people here are responding to the diagnosis rather than the issue. I could probably have a whole dialogue on that question so rather than that, let me suggest you consider how you present yourself to others.

 

The issue...

 

Well, I'll first respond by making an analogy.

 

Picture yourself behind the counter of a gun shop and a kid comes in and says, "I need some major protection, what do ya got?"

 

So the guy behind the counter says, "Why do you need a gun" and the kid is stunned. He can't believe his ears. He's thinking to himself, "This is a frickin' gun shop... sell me a frickin' gun!" And maybe he says that or maybe he walks out or maybe... maybe...

 

Well, we're the gun shop clerks and your the kid looking for "heat".

 

It's not that we don't want to help you... but we don't want you to hurt yourself or others.

 

We'd all love to have a chat with you about why you feel vulnerable and need "protection". I bet it would do you some good. So I really hope you stick around and pursue this question.

 

My second point...

 

From what I know about aspies (I've read up a fair bit because of close relatives who either show signs of it or have had a diagnosis)... they have a definite tendancy to poorly define a social problem. Since a problem that is not properly understood can't be solved... I recommend that you spend some energy defining the problem.

 

Now I could ask, "What do you want?" but usually such a question is too broad for an aspie. You may find that question overwhelming. Even questions like, "What do you see as an end result?" or "How to you picture this playing out" can be fraught with complication. So if you were my nephew and you asked my advice... I'd tell you that if you really wanted to understand the problem and you feel that a dialogue with your parents will solve the problem that you do this:

 

- Create a written dialogue that you envision having with your Mom or Dad and how you see that happening.

- Post it on this site (optional)

- We'll all discuss it (like grown ups - this time)

 

My parents have complete trust in me, and I think they would consider what I would show them.

 

To play the devil's advocate (For you purists out there... it's a saying. I didn't mean it litterally) on what do you base this? Convince me/us that you have their confidence on issues of morality and "truth" (I don't mean maters of fact).

 

It's mainly a matter of hiding and not being able to discuss some hobbies and interests because they don't mesh well with traditional Christian values.

 

What does that mean? Palentology?

 

Final thoughts... I can list a hoarde of people who tell me that putting their problems on paper significantly aids clarifying a problem. As a young person, this would be a fantastic habit to develop if you haven't already.

 

Take care,

 

Mongo

[mwc]

MWC, WTF????? Seriously, are you drunk or something? Just because he mentioned he has a condition known as Aspergers does not mean you have to try to speak to him like an alien being. He's still a human being, just talk to him like a human being. 'K Or go meet some adults with Aspergers and find out how they really write and think. I've taken the time to do this. I've met some great people. Here is a good place to start: Aspies for Freedom Go read their forums.

He identified as an aspie so I spoke to him as such. If he wanted to treated differently then he wouldn't have made an issue of it. He would have just came on and asked the question. The Aspergers is how he self-identifies.

 

I also know adult aspies (at different places on the spectrum so it's interesting to see how they differ). They don't write the way this person writes. They don't write in "aspie" like this person does. This person writes like they were standing in front of you talking. So far no information has actually been gained from our new user as to what they actually want from us specifically. An aspie should be able to use Google to do the basic research they've hinted at (and much, much more...the aspies I know are highly intelligent and could research this all easily in a day while playing Tetris or some similar pointless game). Beyond that all we've been given is that their parents "trust" them (whatever that means...are they going to abuse their parents trust with our help) and they have "hobbies" that their parents won't approve of (like robbery or what?). We're being kept in the dark under the guise of Aspergers and the aspies I personally know usually spill their guts to strangers with very little prodding (to the dismay of those close to them but the aspies tend to be overly trusting of folks).

 

mwc

[Mongo]

MWC, WTF????? Seriously, are you drunk or something? Just because he mentioned he has a condition known as Aspergers does not mean you have to try to speak to him like an alien being. He's still a human being, just talk to him like a human being. 'K Or go meet some adults with Aspergers and find out how they really write and think. I've taken the time to do this. I've met some great people. Here is a good place to start: Aspies for Freedom Go read their forums.

He identified as an aspie so I spoke to him as such. If he wanted to treated differently then he wouldn't have made an issue of it. He would have just came on and asked the question. The Aspergers is how he self-identifies.

 

I also know adult aspies (at different places on the spectrum so it's interesting to see how they differ). They don't write the way this person writes. They don't write in "aspie" like this person does. This person writes like they were standing in front of you talking. So far no information has actually been gained from our new user as to what they actually want from us specifically. An aspie should be able to use Google to do the basic research they've hinted at (and much, much more...the aspies I know are highly intelligent and could research this all easily in a day while playing Tetris or some similar pointless game). Beyond that all we've been given is that their parents "trust" them (whatever that means...are they going to abuse their parents trust with our help) and they have "hobbies" that their parents won't approve of (like robbery or what?). We're being kept in the dark under the guise of Aspergers and the aspies I personally know usually spill their guts to strangers with very little prodding (to the dismay of those close to them but the aspies tend to be overly trusting of folks).

 

mwc

 

 

MWC,

 

In my opinion Aspurgers is not a syndrome that is well understood and the criteria for a diagnosis are not clear. Those with the condition seem to present symptoms differently. So if DA does not behave like all the other aspies you know, then please consider that you may have something to learn about aspies.

 

One of the difficulties DA appears to have that I see in all aspies, is a difficulty expressing social problems in a clear context. If I am right then this makes it difficult, if not impossible, for him to do what you are demanding he do. If I am right, then the analogy would be the same as tipping over a wheelchair and telling the disabled person to walk.

 

That said... it does not do aspies any good to coddle them any more than one would a physically diabled person.

 

One very basic aspect of aspurgers is that those afflicted have difficulty putting their feet into the shoes of another person. This is why they often speak and write about a social issue differently than those who are not afflicted. They are often brash and less concerned about the other person's feelings or self-absorbed. As well, they often display an incorrect understanding of other people's point of view. While these are common traits found in everyday life, these traits are more pronounced in those with aspurgers and in some cases, are severe.

 

DA is young and has much yet to learn in life.

 

One of the very best ways for you to help DA is to explain to him how you interpret his posts. From that, he can learn how the words he choses affect your perception. Telling him what you don't understand and why can be eye opening. However, to do that does not require harshness and is in fact, not very helpful.

 

Last year I went to a seminar by a guy named Harvey Silver who has a gift for communicating about social bahaviour. I'm indebited to him (and another co-worker) for helping me better understand that in all my social contact... it is the relationship that matters and that we progress in life if we seek to preserve and enhance our relationships with others.

 

While that does not cure my frustrations, it does cause me to ask, "Will an angry or frustrated tone help solve the problem or make it worse?" and yes, that does make me approach more things differently. I still express my frustrations and state my expectations but I'm *more* careful to do it in a way that avoids needlessly harming the relationship.

 

Mongo

[Guest Diagnosis Aspergers]

Sorry about the lack of presence in my thread. Its a combination of fear of of being caught logging in and tending not to remember something until the very moment I need\want it. My folks have never checked into my internet use\books\games\whatever and simply assume that i'm a good Christian guy. I need info on addressing the various psychological safeguards i've found out about like;its part of God's plan,God moves in mysterious ways, etc. Stuff that attacks the psychological "hooks" used to fend off doubt. And just stuff to read up on when I feel safe doin' it. One more thing, is a good chunk of it simply reappropiated Pagan myth? Almost forgot, my aspergers was diagnosed by a medical doctor years ago.

[Mongo]

Sorry about the lack of presence in my thread. Its a combination of fear of of being caught logging in and tending not to remember something until the very moment I need\want it. My folks have never checked into my internet use\books\games\whatever and simply assume that i'm a good Christian guy. I need info on addressing the various psychological safeguards i've found out about like;its part of God's plan,God moves in mysterious ways, etc. Stuff that attacks the psychological "hooks" used to fend off doubt. And just stuff to read up on when I feel safe doin' it. One more thing, is a good chunk of it simply reappropiated Pagan myth? Almost forgot, my aspergers was diagnosed by a medical doctor years ago.

 

Welcome back! I hope you'll visit when you have a chance.

 

I'm not sure what you're looking for but for psychological understanding about fending off doubt, have a peek at www.rickross.com . This site has tremendous resources that will give you a greater understanding of how people allow themselves to be sucked into conforming their thinking according to other's designs.

 

Cheers,

 

Mongo

[Guest Diagnosis Aspergers]

One more thing, i'm only checkin' the thread when remembering its existence coincides with willingness to venture here. Which is like once or twice a week at best. Yeah, my memory can be bad.