Parents Pray Instead Of Seeking Medical Help

[R. S. Martin]

Circumcision. Why would that be under microscope. It is medically proven to be heather than uncircumcised. We have access to medical findings, research, knowledge of the human body, medicines; in no comparisons to early times. The diagnosis, and treatability of this girls condition was common knowledge. Not something unknown, or retained for only the elect.

 

Because I have seen discussions that refute your argument. Not my area of expertise but others can enlighten you.

 

YoYo said:

Yoyo...How can any human presume to know what God "really" meant?

 

Most humans find it a major challenge simply to understand each other. How, then, can they presume to understand God whose thoughts, according to the Bible, are so much higher than human thoughts as the heavens are higher than the earth? The Bible says his ways are past finding out. Yet Christians claim to know something was God's will--or was not God's will. How, I ask, can any human presume to make such a statement?

 

As Neon Genesis so clearly points out, the Bible very unambiguously tells people to use prayer and other religious means to heal people.

 

Ruby,

 

I see the Bible, God of Israel, God in Jesus, Jesus, Holy Spirit; in so many different aspects I can't think of it all at one time. You have Christ telling disciples that He can't reveal certain things to them, for it would not be comprehended from their mind. Then you have God himself saying He can't 'dwell' with us because His spirit can't strive with us.

 

Yes, Isaiah prophesied that God said His ways are higher than our ways. No, someone doesn't 'know Gods will' for the individual life. How could they? Thats saying that you are basically God. There are signs of struggle/success, life altering occurrences, etc that may point to an indication of God willing someone to do a certain thing, or 'fill' a certain purpose. But, for someone to say that its 'God 's will' is mostly a cop out in most Christianity. Thats my personal opinion.

 

Maybe I wasn't clear with my question. In Post 25 you claim to know exactly what God wants people to do about cases of treatable illness--use common sense and go see a doctor.

 

In other words, it's God's will to use common sense and go see a doctor, esp. if it's a child. I agree on that. So you seem to know God's will quite readily, regardless of your hedging in this post.

 

My question to you is: HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT IS GOD'S WILL?

 

After all, Neon Genesis is right about what the Bible says regarding healing the sick. You happen to be wrong on that. I know what is in the Bible. I can use the Bible to make arguments for OR against Neon Genesis. However, I can be rather innovative and I would like to see how Christians make the argument from the Bible because I don't think it's easily done without violating orthodox doctrine in other areas.

 

(I don't know if this is going too far off-topic for this thread or not. In case it is, I started a thread for the question about What God "Really" Meant. I don't care where this discussion happens. I don't want to steal from the OP but neither do I want to derail the topic. I guess I'll leave this post here for now, since it still refers to the incident of the OP, and if anyone wishes to move/copy this part of the discussion over to the other thread, feel free to do so.)

 

Back to my question. Yoyo, you go off on the verse about "God's thoughts are higher than our thoughts." That's not my question at all--that is part of my argument. Your claim is to know God's will.

 

I argue: How can you--given that God's thoughts are supposed to be so much higher than mere human thoughts?

 

I assume you're human??? That would make your thoughts human.

[R. S. Martin]

Whoa there God boy... 'common sense'? 'COMMON SENSE'? Since when did faith have ANYTHING to do with common sense? Most ot he trip eyou post has nothing to do with Common sense... ref the Easter Challenge, hell you even invoke Jesus there... COMMON FUCKING SENSE? YA THINK? God's death but you're an idiot...

I'm not even going to bother responding to YoYo's response because it makes no sense whatsoever and I can't understand a word YoYo is saying. So, I won't respond, YoYo, until you make common sense because I really don't understand a word you just said.

 

Maybe I'm not getting YoYo either but I'll try my hand at translating Post 25.

 

I understand YoYo believes God wants Christians to use common sense and go see a doctor for treatable illness, not just trust in prayer. That is not biblical but apparently YoYo has enough human feeling to care more about human family ties than being biblical. I must say I'm glad to see that. YoYo argues away the "unbiblical" part in some mysterious way that I find difficult to follow.

 

I think Yoyo believes God gives certain levels or amounts of healing power to people. Christ (or Jesus) got it "without measure" so he was able to heal people completely or perform miracles. These days, nobody has it "without measure" so nobody can perform miracles like Jesus did.

 

I see this as a convoluted way recent Christians have come up with to make their religion coincide more closely with science. My question to YoYo is: How do you know where to draw the line? How do you know God's will? If you deviate from the Bible part-way for the sake of logic and common sense, why not go all the way as far as science has progressed to treat the illness? If you're praying for healing, obviously healing is within your belief system.

 

And for those who didn't know--healing by prayer is healing by magic. Healing by prayer and annointing with oil, etc., is healing with ritual and uttering a formula. As my NT prof said, "One man's miracle is another man's magic" or vice versa. BTW, that prof is a Christian who loves to talk about his faith--not my favourite prof but perhaps a "real Christian".

[Grandpa Harley]

Yoyo, I don't know what to make of your answer. There was a time when I would have accepted it more readily. But what I'm seeing is so many different Christians all coming up with their own version of doctoring up the old doctrines to fit with science, yet not going all the way. How can anyone know where to draw the line? How can any human presume to know what God "really" meant?

 

Most humans find it a major challenge simply to understand each other. How, then, can they presume to understand God whose thoughts, according to the Bible, are so much higher than human thoughts as the heavens are higher than the earth? The Bible says his ways are past finding out. Yet Christians claim to know something was God's will--or was not God's will. How, I ask, can any human presume to make such a statement?

 

As Neon Genesis so clearly points out, the Bible very unambiguously tells people to use prayer and other religious means to heal people.

 

In response to the question being asked about prosecution. I think any religious action that results in the physical harm of another person needs to be viewable in terms of legal offense. Hmmm. I guess that would put such traditional practices as the circumcision of baby boys under the microscope.

 

Ruby,

 

I see the Bible, God of Israel, God in Jesus, Jesus, Holy Spirit; in so many different aspects I can't think of it all at one time. You have Christ telling disciples that He can't reveal certain things to them, for it would not be comprehended from their mind. Then you have God himself saying He can't 'dwell' with us because His spirit can't strive with us.

 

Yes, Isaiah prophesied that God said His ways are higher than our ways. No, someone doesn't 'know Gods will' for the individual life. How could they? Thats saying that you are basically God. There are signs of struggle/success, life altering occurrences, etc that may point to an indication of God willing someone to do a certain thing, or 'fill' a certain purpose. But, for someone to say that its 'God 's will' is mostly a cop out in most Christianity. Thats my personal opinion.

 

Circumcision. Why would that be under microscope. It is medically proven to be heather than uncircumcised. We have access to medical findings, research, knowledge of the human body, medicines; in no comparisons to early times. The diagnosis, and treatability of this girls condition was common knowledge. Not something unknown, or retained for only the elect.

 

"It is medically proven to be heather than uncircumcised." BULL SHIT...

 

Penile cancer is the lower in circumcised men, but it's pretty rare any way.... you want to avoid large cell prostate or testicular cancer (the two largest killers of men out side heart disease) then best not be snipped... medically proven my entire English arse... it was promulgated by Kellogg (yes THAT Kellogg) as a method of programming men against sex from an early age... and THAT is IT... no medical evidence... no 'nothing'... TBH that statement presupposes all men are born with a birth defect....

 

I'm not even bothering to dignify your religious clap trap with more than disdain... idiot troll...

[Mike D]

If they aren't going to thow these people's asses into jail (which they should), then I say at the minimum they should be classified as mentally ill and kept away from kids. Who's to say this won't happen again in the future? They obviously haven't learned their lesson because they believe their daughter will be resurrected!.

 

People who pray expecting it to stop the normal progression of nature need to be taken out back and slapped silly. Why do they think doctors came into existence in the first place? Because over time humans (the smart ones anyway) finally realized that prayer doesn't work.

[AKR]

story here

 

I never understood this kind of thinking even when I was a xian. I almost died when I was a kid with pneumonia because of "Faith".

Do you think they should be prosecuted?

 

 

Prosecuted, persecuted, executed. Or, at least, sterilized. It pisses me off that they say that there's no signs of abuse.

 

http://www.childwelfare.gov/can/defining/can.cfm

 

State Definitions of Child Abuse and Neglect

 

Within the minimum standards set by CAPTA, each State is responsible for providing its own definitions of child abuse and neglect. Most States recognize four major types of maltreatment: neglect, physical abuse, sexual abuse, and emotional abuse. You can locate definitions for your State by conducting a State Statutes Search on the Information Gateway website.

 

The examples provided below are for general informational purposes only.

 

Neglect is failure to provide for a child's basic needs. Neglect may be:

 

* Physical (e.g., failure to provide necessary food or shelter, or lack of appropriate supervision)

* Medical (e.g., failure to provide necessary medical or mental health treatment)

* Educational (e.g., failure to educate a child or attend to special education needs)

* Emotional (e.g., inattention to a child's emotional needs, failure to provide psychological care, or permitting the child to use alcohol or other drugs)

 

 

This news was posted in another forum. I mentioned that I think it's f*cked up that people in the US can get away with things like this simply because it's part of their religion. A christian denied that, and said that atheist parents could get away with the same. Then, I gave him the following, and fortunately, after a little hesitation, he admitted he was wrong.

 

 

http://www.cirp.org/library/ethics/AAP3/

 

In some jurisdictions, exemptions to child abuse and neglect laws restrict government action to protect children or seek legal redress when the alleged abuse or neglect has occurred in the name of religion.

 

Through legislative activity at the federal and state levels, some religious groups have sought, and in many cases attained, government recognition in the form of approved payment for this "nonmedical therapy" and exemption from child abuse and neglect laws when children do not receive needed medical care.

 

The US Constitution requires that government not interfere with religious practices or endorse particular religions. However, these constitutional principles do not stand alone and may, at times, conflict with the independent government interest in protecting children.1 Government obligation arises from that interest when parental religious practices subject minor children to possible loss of life or to substantial risk of harm

 

 

This has more:

 

http://www.religioustolerance.org/medical1.htm

 

And people wonder why we fight religions like this.

[cogitoergosum]

Hell, yeah, prosecute them.

 

A friend of mine is a diabetic and he was telling me he thought Jesus would heal him if he had enough faith to quit taking his insulin. I told him he was going to die before Jesus did anything for him. He kept taking his shots.

 

Yeah, my mom was an adherant to the 'get-rid-of-the-medication-and-God-will-heal-you'! brand of lunacy. She advocated for people with vision issues to throw out their glasses, people on any medication whatsoever to stop taking it, people on crutches to stop using them... I was a victim of all of this numerous times. It's a wonder she didn't go around tipping people out of their wheelchairs and pulling people off life support...

 

What she didn't realize was that this whole basis of thought came from a death-cult leader named Hobart Freeman, who preached that (according to Christianity Today) "According to Freeman's faith-formula theology, God is obligated to heal every sickness if a believer's faith is genuine. Faith must be accompanied by positive confession, meaning that believers must claim the healing by acknowledging that it has taken place." This understanding was more or less accepted by the pastorate, with the wife of one recalling that "Dr. Freeman taught that it was always God’s will to heal in response to our faith, and that God would do it without the aid of doctors or medicine." In consequence, doctors and medicine came to be disparaged and reviled.

 

Hobart Freeman did write that "... we must practice thought control. We must deliberately empty our minds of everything negative concerning the person, problem, or situation confronting us ..." And he continued writing that "Sickness often can only be overcome by maintaining a positive confession of God's promises in the face of all apparent evidence to the contrary."

 

Then: (wikipedia) "At a meeting of the County Board of Health on October 23, 1974, Barbara Clouse, the Health Nurse for Kosciusko County was concerned that the Glory Barn (Hobart Freeman's compound) was a major health problem and it would only get worse. She detailed her concerns, saying that:

"Diabetics were not taking their insulin and pregnant women were receiving no pre-natal or post-natal care. ... They are laying dead babies and live babies next to each other on the altars and praying over them to get the live babies to bring life back to the dead ones. There was one woman in our county praying over a baby for four days before the funeral home got hold of it."

 

"Eventually, Hobart Freeman was charged with aiding and abetting these deaths by what was described as "negligent homicide". At least ninety members of the congregation died during Freeman's ministry, which Daniel McConnell described as tragic and preventable."

 

"Two weeks before this matter was to come to court, Freeman died at his Shoe Lake home of bronchial pneumonia and congestive heart failure complicated by an ulcerated gangrenous leg, which in the weeks preceding had forced him to preach sitting down. He had refused all medical help, even to the removal of the bandages so his leg could be cleaned."

 

"Previously in Faith for Healing, Freeman had said that "To claim healing for the body and then to continue to take medicine is not following our faith with corresponding action ... When genuine faith is present, it alone will be sufficient for it will take the place of medicines and other aids."

 

"Freeman's death was not reported for at least 13 hours due to an all-night prayer vigil for his resurrection. He was buried in a pine box with no public viewing and no graveside or memorial service. For many months afterwards, his wife left his suit over the end of the bed, expecting him to one day walk in and have need of it."

 

People don't even know the originator of the doctrine they are following, and that he is one of four major death cult leaders in recent history, the others being David Koresh, Jim Jones, and Marshall Applewhite (Heaven's Gate).

[Shyone]

People don't even know the originator of the doctrine they are following, and that he is one of four major death cult leaders in recent history, the others being David Koresh, Jim Jones, and Marshall Applewhite (Heaven's Gate).

I'm sure you are right, but it is "biblical."

 

All those "promises" in the New Testament - God will do anything you ask, Jesus will do anything, ask in Jesus' name and you will get anything.

 

The rationalizations only came later when it was obvious that the promises were empty. Then we get the, "You didn't have enough faith, didn't pray hard enough, You shouldn't test God..."

 

A really good book about religious Faith healing as Child Abuse is called, "God Versus the Gavel" by M. Hamilton. It covers other problems where faith has been damaging to individuals or society - e.g. polygamy, zoning laws, etc.

[Galien]

As a xian i was well aware that i had the right to refuse treatment for myself (not that I ever would have, im chronically disobedient) but i had no right whatsoever to make that decision for my children. I was neglected as a child, and really I think not having anyone give a shit about what you need is worse than having the shit kicked out of you, was in my case anyway. Neglect made me grow up feeling like I was of no importance to anyone.

 

People like these mentally ill parents should not be allowed to breed, and any church that preaches such criminal neglect of children should have the preachers mouths sewn up permanently.

 

 

[Crazy Donna]

Neglect made me grow up feeling like I was of no importance to anyone.

 

 

I'll second that. My mother was a big fan of 'alternative medicines' after she met a friend who pretty much brainwashed her with whatever alternative medicine or conspiracy theory was flavour of the month. So instead of actually getting medical attention, we got 'alternative medicine', which should actually be called 'alternative TO medicine'. One sibling was actually quite sick, so that one got all the attention. I actually broke a bone once and she never noticed. Only found out about it years later when I had an X-ray taken and the found the deformity. Yes, I'd take an arsekicking any day over neglect. I think that's had a pretty permanent effect on my personality.

[Thurisaz]

Do you think they should be prosecuted?

 

Mercilessly.

 

Well actually I think they should be given a chance to prove that their claims are true. Infect them with something real nasty and painful and deny them all access to modern medicine. Let them pray their way out of it. What better chance for them to demonstrate to us unbelievers the glory of jeeeebus?

 

But sadly that's a no-go in a system that wants to claim it's operating on the basis of justice and human rights and such...

[StevoMuso]

Well actually I think they should be given a chance to prove that their claims are true. Infect them with something real nasty and painful and deny them all access to modern medicine. Let them pray their way out of it. What better chance for them to demonstrate to us unbelievers the glory of jeeeebus?

That's brilliant! Never thought of that before. Give these "praying parents" a deadly disease and then their "God" must heal them or else they die - that would be true justice IMO. Nice one Thurisaz

[Guest Valk0010]

I think people like this should never be allowed in a doctors office again after getting out of jail if they were to get out.

 

I wouldn't want them to get out personally because the death of a child is one of the most unforgivable and unpardonable crimes

[SilentLoner]

So what happened? This is an old post, I'm wondering if they were prosecuted in the end?