What God " Really " Meant

[Legion]

How are you defining God?

Pretty much as you describe. Would you believe that I had just read something by someone else? Someone had asked them who God was and they responded, "it is us!" And I found that disagreeing slightly with what I thought. So I guess I decided to pick on someone I mostly like. You.

[R. S. Martin]

But whoa, hang on!! These theologians, these rabbi's of the new millenium are just men. Just mammals. So when they claim to have made a new insight, or excavated a new pearl of Biblical wisdom, I think it is entirely reasonable to ask by what authority they can possibly know that what they come up with is true?

 

Couldn't God have got the Bible right the first time around?

 

Well, since you're new, and the 21st century is fairly new, and I've been in seminary for most of it, maybe I should do a brief introduction of myself, esp. given that I started this thread.

 

First of all, I'm a woman but mammal all the same. Secondly, I'm an exChristian though I identified as some sort of Christian when I started the program but by no means orthodox. Studying theology was by no means my choice but life got me into a bottle neck where my options were severely limited and the study of theology was perhaps the only viable option so I took it. I found I loved it. I handed in my MA thesis about a week ago and I expect to have my degree this spring.

 

So I'm not a mature theologian but I've been exposed to the formal study of theology.

 

Now to your question:

 

I think it is entirely reasonable to ask by what authority they can possibly know that what they come up with is true?

 

That's one thing I would like to know myself. The best answer I can get is faith--it's faith. I've questioned more than one prof under various situations from various perspectives and that's the only conclusion I can reach. My purpose in the study of theology is not to find metaphysical truth (because it seems not to exist) but to find what people believe and how it impacts their everyday life. There are so many different kinds of Christian theology or belief and that is what fascinates me. All of these different kinds of belief impact human life differently. And that fascinates me.

 

I think for Christians the main authority is what tradition they were raised in. Some leave that tradition for another that is more compatible with their personality, but they compare and contrast the newly adopted tradition with the one they were born into. Other items that go into deciding truth are: what feels right; who treated me right; which church lets me do what I want to do; who converted me (for people not born into religion), which tradition is closest to my understanding of the Bible, etc.

 

So far as I can make out, it's very, very subjective.

 

When I posted the question, it was actually meant as a rather sarcastic jab as fundamentalist Christians because they are always making claims about what God "really" meant by what is in the Bible. I have too much respect for my teachers and their methods of logic to present it to them. Besides, they don't claim to know what God really meant; they state their hermeneutic and work from there, seeking to understand as best they can with what they've got. I like their humility and would probably join their church if I could believe the central tenets of theology but I can't.

 

You also ask:

 

Couldn't God have got the Bible right the first time around?

 

That's a question I would like to take up with my thesis supervisor but he seems to feel somewhat sensitive that I am making fun of Christians even when I'm not, so I better leave it.

 

I had expected to be able to have open conversation with him about some of these things but it seems I can't. I am saddened by this. He is such an intelligent person and could answer these questions if anyone can...this gives me an idea. Maybe sometime in the future I can do a project on dialogue between Christians and people of no religion. Perhaps in that context I can ask him some of my questions.

[chefranden]

I do believe that God's thoughts are higher than our thoughts and His ways are past finding out on our own with just our natural minds. It is like the rock of revelation on which the church is built. When asked who the disciples believed that Jesus was, Peter proclaimed the He was the Christ and the Son of the Living God.

 

Jesus explained that flesh and blood cannot discern this truth, but that it must be given by our Father in Heaven. Revelation knowledge are those unexpected glimpses into who God is and how He thinks. We cannot know them unless He comes down to our level and reveals them to us heart to heart.

I know most will not receive this, but it is how I see it and have experienced it.

 

John

 

So then God's thoughts are higher because he lives in heaven? So why doesn't he come down to our level and reveal stuff heart to heart? I'm waiting -- been waiting for 58 years so far.

 

Why won't most receive this? Because God doesn't bother with them? Was Calvin right? If not, what makes you special before god? When you answer remember you are talking to Ex-Christians here, many of whom were very devout.

[chefranden]

Wow! prime example falls for bait better than "prayed for." Fellow exxies call him on it ON THE SPOT. Let's watch him squirm and wriggle. This promises to be entertaining. I could feed him a few bible verses to defend his position but I think I'll let him find them himself at this point. There's sure to be others to rip the argument right down. The Bible is S-O-O-O-O versatile.

 

 

You know Ruby, you've become quite a radical since last I visited this realm. Good for you!

[chefranden]

If you count up the number of people on the earth who believe in god (over five billion for sure) then you will know how many different gods are worshiped. All people have their own ideas about who god is, and no two are exactly alike, at least no that I've seen.

 

I was going to say pretty much the same thing, but you beat me to it.

 

Catholics all have the same faith -- the Pope's.

 

Since each Protestant is a priest in direct connection with God, there must be as many faiths as Protestant Christians + 1 and a few more for those that are neither Protestant or Catholic.

[chefranden]

So does your God have a 'personality' or is God simply all things, with all the 'personality' of, say, an individual wasp has compared to the hive?

 

Hi Grandpa,

 

wow, what a question, really makes me think deeply. If you could call my thinking deep haha it may be as deep as a puddle compared to an ocean!

 

The word God, I aquate to the depth that I get hints at being real and there beyond the images but cant ever hold onto. It is that 'beyond' that I relate to 'In Him we live move and have our being'.

 

I think all creation are images that point to that 'beyond' that 'Him' that is God. But do I grasp it at all? I have no clue how much I grasp or dont grasp.

 

But I will say this, I think my experience in religion made me incredibly proud, sure of absolutes and I desperately needed that to see what Thich Nhat Hanh said, 'Every view is wrong view when its held that it is the only true view'.

 

see sig below lol

 

Why is your god a him?

 

I'm a fan of TNH too.

 

-ornery cook.

[Kratos]

I do believe that God's thoughts are higher than our thoughts and His ways are past finding out on our own with just our natural minds. It is like the rock of revelation on which the church is built. When asked who the disciples believed that Jesus was, Peter proclaimed the He was the Christ and the Son of the Living God.

 

Jesus explained that flesh and blood cannot discern this truth, but that it must be given by our Father in Heaven. Revelation knowledge are those unexpected glimpses into who God is and how He thinks. We cannot know them unless He comes down to our level and reveals them to us heart to heart.

I know most will not receive this, but it is how I see it and have experienced it.

 

John

 

So then God's thoughts are higher because he lives in heaven? So why doesn't he come down to our level and reveal stuff heart to heart? I'm waiting -- been waiting for 58 years so far.

 

Why won't most receive this? Because God doesn't bother with them? Was Calvin right? If not, what makes you special before god? When you answer remember you are talking to Ex-Christians here, many of whom were very devout.

 

Chef,

 

If you truely were a Christian once then He has revealed Himself to you. If not, then you were just a member of a religion. No one knows the Father, but the Son and those whom He reveals the Father to. Being a Christian means that you have had the exerience of having God revealed to you by Christ.

 

I truely hope that this helps.

 

John

[Dhampir]

Being a Christian means that you have had the exerience of having God revealed to you by Christ.

I would just like to point out that there is nothing anywhere in the bible that says anything about what being a christian means. In the nearly 5 years since my official deconversion, I have heard at least 100 people state definitively that being christian means this, and being christian means that. Their statements don't necessarily contradict each other, though I'm sure a few do, but the assertions are so wide and varied, that I'm certain any one person has never given thought to most of them.

 

What I'm trying to get through here, is that given the variety of these assertions, being christian is so many things to so many people, how can one think their POV helps anyone? More to the point, how can you think your outlook isn't defined solely by you, or your pastor's interpretation, and not any sort of divine influence?

[Kratos]

Being a Christian means that you have had the exerience of having God revealed to you by Christ.

I would just like to point out that there is nothing anywhere in the bible that says anything about what being a christian means. In the nearly 5 years since my official deconversion, I have heard at least 100 people state definitively that being christian means this, and being christian means that. Their statements don't necessarily contradict each other, though I'm sure a few do, but the assertions are so wide and varied, that I'm certain any one person has never given thought to most of them.

 

What I'm trying to get through here, is that given the variety of these assertions, being christian is so many things to so many people, how can one think their POV helps anyone? More to the point, how can you think your outlook isn't defined solely by you, or your pastor's interpretation, and not any sort of divine influence?

 

Dhampir,

 

I personally get tired of writing IMO or IMHO on every post so sorry if I caused you some confusion. Being a discussion board I too often assume that everyone knows that what I write is my opinion unless I specifically quote another author.

 

But just to be clear and keep the peace as much as is possible by a Christian in the Lion's Den, yes, what I wrote is just my opinion of what a Christian is.

 

John

[Grandpa Harley]

"If you truely were a Christian once then He has revealed Himself to you. If not, then you were just a member of a religion. No one knows the Father, but the Son and those whom He reveals the Father to."

 

Why did no one else point up that John of God is an elitist SOB?

[SWIM]

We cannot know them unless He comes down to our level and reveals them to us heart to heart.

 

A good hit of LSD will open you up to god's mind, as well as barny the dinosaur! GLORY!!!

[Deva]

"If you truely were a Christian once then He has revealed Himself to you. If not, then you were just a member of a religion. No one knows the Father, but the Son and those whom He reveals the Father to."

 

Why did no one else point up that John of God is an elitist SOB?

 

 

Yes, not having been privledged to have this personal revelation from Christ, we (and vast numbers of other humans) are just out of luck, right Kratos? We can't belong to your special "spritual" church. The arrogance is truly astounding. What happened, weren't you once a universalist?

[SWIM]

"If you truely were a Christian once then He has revealed Himself to you. If not, then you were just a member of a religion. No one knows the Father, but the Son and those whom He reveals the Father to."

 

Why did no one else point up that John of God is an elitist SOB?

 

 

Yes, not having been privledged to have this personal revelation from Christ, we (and vast numbers of other humans) are just out of luck, right Kratos? We can't belong to your special "spritual" church. The arrogance is truly astounding. What happened, weren't you once a universalist?

 

Makes you feel like bowing to him chanting "I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy..." doesn't it? Gonna log off and cry now about my unworthyness...

 

an stuff...

[sojourner]

So does your God have a 'personality' or is God simply all things, with all the 'personality' of, say, an individual wasp has compared to the hive?

 

Hi Grandpa,

 

wow, what a question, really makes me think deeply. If you could call my thinking deep haha it may be as deep as a puddle compared to an ocean!

 

The word God, I aquate to the depth that I get hints at being real and there beyond the images but cant ever hold onto. It is that 'beyond' that I relate to 'In Him we live move and have our being'.

 

I think all creation are images that point to that 'beyond' that 'Him' that is God. But do I grasp it at all? I have no clue how much I grasp or dont grasp.

 

But I will say this, I think my experience in religion made me incredibly proud, sure of absolutes and I desperately needed that to see what Thich Nhat Hanh said, 'Every view is wrong view when its held that it is the only true view'.

 

see sig below lol

 

Why is your god a him?

 

I'm a fan of TNH too.

 

-ornery cook.

 

Hi Chef,

 

I was using Him because I was referring to scripture where it uses Him. However, I dont see God as strictly male nor think of God that way. To me its all the images we see that tend to classify male or female but in that beyond I was talking about, well its mystery to me.

 

sojourner

[Grandpa Harley]

but that is the modern sense of mystery, rather than something revealed by initiation... The Masons are a 'mystery' group in the classical sense... Christiantiy stopped being a mystery religion a long time ago... in fact I think the sectrets that constituted the mystery were lost well before Nicea... although there is a good chance that the true 'mystery' cult was wiped out as a heresy and a threat to empire...

[Neon Genesis]

Chef,

 

If you truely were a Christian once then He has revealed Himself to you. If not, then you were just a member of a religion. No one knows the Father, but the Son and those whom He reveals the Father to. Being a Christian means that you have had the exerience of having God revealed to you by Christ.

 

I truely hope that this helps.

 

John

That is bullshit, and you know it. Clearly you are deluding yourself into thinking God is real but simply believing in God does not prove he is real. If that was all it took to prove he was real, then leprechauns must be real too as long as I believe it is real. And if I believe that Allah is real, then that must prove that Allah is real too. So, if I believed that Allah was real and that proves Allah is real, then does that mean I should kill you now in the name of Allah? Why not? You say that blind faith is all that is needed to prove something is real, so if blind faith is all that is needed, then anything we have blind faith in will now be real simply because we say so. And if you really believe in Yahweh, and your belief in Yahweh proves he is real, then why don't you kill us? In the bible, Yahweh commands his followers to kill all non-believers. You claim to be a "bible-believing Christian", so if you believe in the bible and claim to know Yahweh is true because you believe it so, then you must kill us all now in the name of Yahweh. Obviously you haven't done that yet, so clearly that means you do not truly believe in Yahweh and you must not be a "real" Christian either, and so you must be a liar and a hypocrite and one of those false preachers the bible warned us about because you aren't following Yahweh's commands to kill all non-believers.

 

Also, the bible says to judge not lest thee be judged. By saying we were never "real" Christians because God didn't appear to us, then you are clearly judging us and again you are proving that you do not truly believe in Yahweh, nor are you really a "bible believing Christian" like you claimed you were, or otherwise you would do everything the bible tells you to do instead of following it half-assed. And oh yeah, Kratos. I just had this special revelation from Yahweh where he appeared to me and told me that everything the bible says about gays and women being submissive to men was wrong and those things are all ok to do now. If you don't believe me and haven't heard this new revelation from Yahweh, then you must not be a real Christian and only have been a member of your religion, because otherwise God would appear before you and tell you this new revelation that gays and uppity women are ok now, too.

 

I personally get tired of writing IMO or IMHO on every post so sorry if I caused you some confusion. Being a discussion board I too often assume that everyone knows that what I write is my opinion unless I specifically quote another author.

 

But just to be clear and keep the peace as much as is possible by a Christian in the Lion's Den, yes, what I wrote is just my opinion of what a Christian is.

Now, where I have heard this before? Oh yeah, it was from that sexist and delusional ex-murderer, Paul. 1 Cor 7:25, "I have no commandment from the Lord; yet I give judgment as one whom the Lord in His mercy has made trustworthy." Translation: This isn't what I think, this is what God thinks, but this is just my opinion about what God thinks. I guess Kratos must be Paul reincarnated now. And here I thought Kratos worshiped Yahweh, but it sounds to me like he's worshiping Paul over Yahweh, which is funny since even Paul said he had no authority from God.

[chefranden]

So then God's thoughts are higher because he lives in heaven? So why doesn't he come down to our level and reveal stuff heart to heart? I'm waiting -- been waiting for 58 years so far.

 

Why won't most receive this? Because God doesn't bother with them? Was Calvin right? If not, what makes you special before god? When you answer remember you are talking to Ex-Christians here, many of whom were very devout.

 

Chef,

 

If you truely were a Christian once then He has revealed Himself to you. If not, then you were just a member of a religion. No one knows the Father, but the Son and those whom He reveals the Father to. Being a Christian means that you have had the exerience of having God revealed to you by Christ.

 

I truely hope that this helps.

 

John

 

Wow, this is the most polite way I've been told I wasn't a TrueChristian™ in all my days.

 

Nevertheless it doesn't answer the question does it? Why has Jesus revealed God to you but not to me? What makes you special?

[The-Captain]

Now, where I have heard this before? Oh yeah, it was from that sexist and delusional ex-murderer, Paul. 1 Cor 7:25, "I have no commandment from the Lord; yet I give judgment as one whom the Lord in His mercy has made trustworthy." Translation: This isn't what I think, this is what God thinks, but this is just my opinion about what God thinks.

 

Thats probably the best summary of Kratos's stance I've seen yet, well said Neon.

 

God speaks to Kratos, and tells him how it is. Hey he's just the messenger, not his fault if we're all jealous and reject the "truth".

 

Seriously almost all his posts run along those lines.

[Saviourmachine]

Chef,

 

If you truely were a Christian once then He has revealed Himself to you. If not, then you were just a member of a religion. No one knows the Father, but the Son and those whom He reveals the Father to. Being a Christian means that you have had the exerience of having God revealed to you by Christ.

 

I truely hope that this helps.

 

John

It would be stupid to deny that there are such things as conversion experiences. I had one myself. Pretty cool, now I look back. One of the most intense experiences I had. Although lately... that was good too!!!!! So, the question is: is this revelation meaningful in a supernatural context? I suppose god is smart enough to use our very human feelings of relieve, intense joy, surrender, remorse to stir a cocktail that concocts such a mysterious emotional experience.

 

Then there is the idea that there are so many "just members of a religion". Sure! Whatever. Do you really think like that? Then you underestimate the power of religion. I think like 99% of the people really become involved in their religion. It's part of growing up. First you learn something from your parents, later you learn to internalize those ideas. People that don't do that, don't think or aren't adults. :-) What exactly makes you consider your own religion can be everything, from the death of a beloved one, to breaking up, traveling for a year, starting to study, reading lots of apologists, etc. etc. The result of this (first or re) consideration is a more intense feeling home at your religion. Don't underestimate people.

 

About your "no one knows..." bla bla. Did miss the point here. Is it essential for the discussion how the revelation process occurs. This supposedly needs a third metaphysical entity called "Son". I am more into science fiction now, it is funny to see how those religions are like old science fiction stories. I have the urge to correct them. They are so childish anthropocentric! Sure, gods have a gender. It is like assuming that aliens will have gender too. And no, it doesn't include genitals of course. It's a pity that there is a correlation between religion and seriousness. Tell me the top 10 jokes in the bible. "Jesus, the son of a bitch."

 

And help. There is a lot of help needed on the world. We have to come up with methods to distribute lots of things in a more social way. (Yeah, those social feelings are programmed by an evolutionary mechanism, but for that reason not less valuable.) It would be the first time that I would meet a xian with a grand vision upon the things that have to be done on this world. We are not gonna make it, if we ruin this world. My personal quest - and it can go wrong - is to create higher intelligent beings, that are able to solve those problems. I hope that will really help the world in the end.

[Kratos]

Chef,

 

If you truely were a Christian once then He has revealed Himself to you. If not, then you were just a member of a religion. No one knows the Father, but the Son and those whom He reveals the Father to. Being a Christian means that you have had the exerience of having God revealed to you by Christ.

 

I truely hope that this helps.

 

John

It would be stupid to deny that there are such things as conversion experiences. I had one myself. Pretty cool, now I look back. One of the most intense experiences I had. Although lately... that was good too!!!!! So, the question is: is this revelation meaningful in a supernatural context? I suppose god is smart enough to use our very human feelings of relieve, intense joy, surrender, remorse to stir a cocktail that concocts such a mysterious emotional experience.

 

Then there is the idea that there are so many "just members of a religion". Sure! Whatever. Do you really think like that? Then you underestimate the power of religion. I think like 99% of the people really become involved in their religion. It's part of growing up. First you learn something from your parents, later you learn to internalize those ideas. People that don't do that, don't think or aren't adults. :-) What exactly makes you consider your own religion can be everything, from the death of a beloved one, to breaking up, traveling for a year, starting to study, reading lots of apologists, etc. etc. The result of this (first or re) consideration is a more intense feeling home at your religion. Don't underestimate people.

 

About your "no one knows..." bla bla. Did miss the point here. Is it essential for the discussion how the revelation process occurs. This supposedly needs a third metaphysical entity called "Son". I am more into science fiction now, it is funny to see how those religions are like old science fiction stories. I have the urge to correct them. They are so childish anthropocentric! Sure, gods have a gender. It is like assuming that aliens will have gender too. And no, it doesn't include genitals of course. It's a pity that there is a correlation between religion and seriousness. Tell me the top 10 jokes in the bible. "Jesus, the son of a bitch."

 

And help. There is a lot of help needed on the world. We have to come up with methods to distribute lots of things in a more social way. (Yeah, those social feelings are programmed by an evolutionary mechanism, but for that reason not less valuable.) It would be the first time that I would meet a xian with a grand vision upon the things that have to be done on this world. We are not gonna make it, if we ruin this world. My personal quest - and it can go wrong - is to create higher intelligent beings, that are able to solve those problems. I hope that will really help the world in the end.

 

I was born into religion and raised a Roman Catholic. I followed along and believed what I was taught, but I did not know God or that He existed. I just believed that He did.

 

When I was about 15 and my parents divorced so my Mom could not make me go to church anymore, I quit going and "deconversion" followed almost immediately. I went through High School and college and beyond as an agnostic though still interested in religion and searching for truth.

 

I was 28 years old when God was revealed to me. I could just as easy say "Why did I have to go through so much hell until I was 28 to know God? Why did other people get to know Him as children, but I didn't?"

 

God will be revealed to all men in their order. That is the truth as I understand it. It is totally different from believing through a religion and knowing by experience. I cannot complain that it took so long until I knew or boast because I did not have to wait longer. I am just glad that I finally did know and just as glad to know that everyone ever made will also one day know. God is no respector of persons, but the timing or our knowing He keeps in His hads.

 

John

[Grandpa Harley]

Well, that lowered the IQ level of the thread.

 

WHY THE HELL ARE YOU HERE? YOU DON'T TRY TO UNDERSTAND ANYONE, JUST TRY TO JUSTIFY WHY YOUR FAITH IS 'TRUE'.... cretin

[Deva]

God will be revealed to all men in their order. That is the truth as I understand it. It is totally different from believing through a religion and knowing by experience. I cannot complain that it took so long until I knew or boast because I did not have to wait longer. I am just glad that I finally did know and just as glad to know that everyone ever made will also one day know. God is no respector of persons, but the timing or our knowing He keeps in His hads.

 

John

 

I hope you take me off your ignore setting long enough to answer this: Why do you feel it is necessary to "boast" of your private God experience to us, who haven't had one and you can't give us any idea of how to get one? Can't you see where reciting this over and over again might become offensive?

[The-Captain]

Well, that lowered the IQ level of the thread.

 

WHY THE HELL ARE YOU HERE? YOU DON'T TRY TO UNDERSTAND ANYONE, JUST TRY TO JUSTIFY WHY YOUR FAITH IS 'TRUE'.... cretin

 

I'll second that. Why are you here? You've been asked by a lot of people, and as I've seen you blithely ignore the question.

[florduh]

God will be revealed to all men in their order. That is the truth as I understand it. It is totally different from believing through a religion and knowing by experience. I cannot complain that it took so long until I knew or boast because I did not have to wait longer. I am just glad that I finally did know and just as glad to know that everyone ever made will also one day know. God is no respector of persons, but the timing or our knowing He keeps in His hads.

 

John

 

John, does not your Bible say "Knock and it shall be opened?" "Ask and ye shall receive?" There are other references that you are ignoring as well. I don't recall the Bible saying we'll be saved when God's good and ready. It just tells us to sincerely repent and ask for it. That is NOT religion, but the experience of direct supplication to the Holy Spirit.

 

You really should stop implying or saying outright that every ex-Christian never was a real Christian in the first place. That is demonstrably not true, but realization of that fact implants in you the fear that if you actually applied rational thought and study to your belief system, you might realize the crock that it is. I know what your faith means to you, and some people just can't allow other ideas to creep in and upset their world. If you hang around here and actually read and try to understand what people are saying, it could happen to you. Be warned!

 

- Chris

[Neon Genesis]

God will be revealed to all men in their order. That is the truth as I understand it. It is totally different from believing through a religion and knowing by experience. I cannot complain that it took so long until I knew or boast because I did not have to wait longer. I am just glad that I finally did know and just as glad to know that everyone ever made will also one day know. God is no respector of persons, but the timing or our knowing He keeps in His hads.

 

John

Ok, let's pretend that God will magically appear before us in the future. Why are you here? If God is magically going to prove himself to us in the future, then why does it matter if we believe or disbelieve in God now? Don't you have enough faith in God that he'll make us believe? For someone who claims to be a "true" Christian, you seem awfully insecure about your faith Kratos if you can't trust God enough to convince us to believe in him. I just don't understand why we should bother believing in God if he's magically going to save us all anyway. And don't tell us that you're here to "get to know us" because we already know you ignore any posts by the uppity women here.