What God " Really " Meant

[R. S. Martin]

we already know you ignore any posts by the uppity women here.

 

No he doesn't. I'm an uppity woman if ever there was one and he was the first person to respond to my thread--and he keeps following it. There's something viler going on here than traditional orthodox patriarchal religion.

 

He's a respecter of persons, a hypocrite, a whited sepulchre, a pit of snakes. What are all the juicy epithets Jesus uses for the Pharisees? Except that "Pharisee" is too good for this one.

 

PS Just now I checked. Maybe he's put me on ignore sometime since this thread started because I don't see him responding to my posts. Seems he only responds to people who haven't posted a lot since he's been visiting. The way to get rid of him, apparently, is to rip him to shreds. He doesn't like that.

[R. S. Martin]

God will be revealed to all men in their order.

 

He would have to exist for that to happen. Evidence, please.

 

Your revelation or vision, obviously, doesn't count because that could have been your brain playing tricks on you. Religious literature, including the Bible, obviously doesn't count either because anybody can write anything anywhere.

 

Besides, written material is nothing but the product of someone's brain. In academia we call it intellectual property. Back in bible times they stole intellectual property all over the place.

 

The Jews stole the bible stories from the Babylonians, who probably stole their stories from still earlier peoples. Some stuff came from ancient Egypt.

 

Now isn't that ironic--they stole the commandment "Thou shalt not steal."

 

Kratos, it looks like we really and truly need some good solid evidence of this god whom you know for sure will definitely reveal himself to us. Since you made the claim it's up to you to back it up.

[R. S. Martin]

John, does not your Bible say "Knock and it shall be opened?" "Ask and ye shall receive?" There are other references that you are ignoring as well. I don't recall the Bible saying we'll be saved when God's good and ready. It just tells us to sincerely repent and ask for it. That is NOT religion, but the experience of direct supplication to the Holy Spirit.

 

You really should stop implying or saying outright that every ex-Christian never was a real Christian in the first place. That is demonstrably not true, but realization of that fact implants in you the fear that if you actually applied rational thought and study to your belief system, you might realize the crock that it is. I know what your faith means to you, and some people just can't allow other ideas to creep in and upset their world. If you hang around here and actually read and try to understand what people are saying, it could happen to you. Be warned!

 

- Chris

 

Excellent post, Chris. You haven't been around so long, maybe he's still reading you. I hope his brain can absorb the solid kernals of truth in there. I was going to highlight the parts I particularly like but it's all so good I didn't know where to stop. I decided not to start.

 

My guess is his holy spirit will only tell him how to take apart what you tell him and prove that you're wrong. He has to do this because his religion tells him so. ARGH!!!!

[Grandpa Harley]

His eisegesis tells him it's wrong....

[Abiyoyo]

Christians are always haggling about what God "really" meant by what he said in the bible. Most humans find it a major challenge simply to understand each other. How, then, can they presume to understand God whose thoughts--according to the Bible--are so much higher than human thoughts as the heavens are higher than the earth? The Bible says God's ways are past finding out. Yet Christians claim to know something was God's will--or was not God's will. How, I ask, can any human presume to make such a statement?

 

*SSSHHHHHHH* but I have a sneaking suspicion that statement was stuck in there because people were saying "That makes no sense!" or "What does that mean?" Well, it wasn't okay to say that to a psalmist or prophet who thought he was inspired by God so he had to say something official-sounding like that.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Well. For starters, I never claimed I knew 'God's will'. I actually said the opposite to that; as I recall you starting this thread from your post in another thread. You assume I act as though I know 'God's will' because of a comment I made about God never saying anything about not going to the doctor. My opinion, you are desperately seeking a reason to speak your mind about this subject; using my totally not related post to connect the two subjects. But, whatever. I had to read your defense a couple of times because of your untimely, not thought through statement of question about 'my thoughts' on a topic entirely on this topic.

 

Moving on here, to address your question. I don't know why Christians claim to know the will of God other than the widespread teaching of 'having the mind of Christ, the Holy Spirit revealing all things/helping to learn the truth, being perfect in Christ, as Christ. All these are very common practices by different denominations. Did God say we would know what His will was? Biblically, no. The Bible says Sin shall lie at your door waiting for you, but you should rule over it. So. Direction Biblically, and knowing the all of God's will is different and not to complicated.

 

End. I assume Christians assume God's will. Is that a sufficient answer for you Ruby?

[Neon Genesis]

Well. For starters, I never claimed I knew 'God's will'. I actually said the opposite to that; as I recall you starting this thread from your post in another thread. You assume I act as though I know 'God's will' because of a comment I made about God never saying anything about not going to the doctor.

If you claim that you don't know what God's will is, why did you just now turn around and say that God never said anything about not going to the doctor? How do you know God never said anything about not going to the doctor? Have you ever met God to know he never said anything about not going to the doctor? Or do you simply think God never said anything about not going to the doctor because that's what somebody else told you? Do you always make assumptions about other people based on a second-hand account or do you ever go and meet the person to find out what they said yourself? If you make assumptions about people based on second-hand accounts and not on what they actually said, aren't you gossiping, and isn't gossiping a sin? And you are a hypocrite for saying you don't know God's will but then turn around and say that you do know that it was God's will for us to go to the doctor. Why don't you practice what you preach instead of putting words into God's mouth if you really believe in God?

 

Moving on here, to address your question. I don't know why Christians claim to know the will of God other than the widespread teaching of 'having the mind of Christ, the Holy Spirit revealing all things/helping to learn the truth, being perfect in Christ, as Christ. All these are very common practices by different denominations. Did God say we would know what His will was? Biblically, no. The Bible says Sin shall lie at your door waiting for you, but you should rule over it. So. Direction Biblically, and knowing the all of God's will is different and not to complicated.

 

End. I assume Christians assume God's will. Is that a sufficient answer for you Ruby?

If you don't believe that anyone can know the will of God, then why do you quote the bible as proof of what the will of God is? Doesn't that make you a hypocrite? If you really believed that you don't know God's will, then you would not quote the bible as if it settles the argument, because then obviously the bible authors can't have known the will of God either, and so the bible isn't a reliable source for settling arguments about God's will with.

[Abiyoyo]

If you claim that you don't know what God's will is, why did you just now turn around and say that God never said anything about not going to the doctor?

 

I was replying to a very sad, sick, disturbing topic about a set of parents that let their kid die because of stupidity. Commonsense. The comment about the 'God not saying to never go to the doctor' was a comment directed toward the stupidity of the people's prayer for faith, healing whatever instead of taking this girl to the freaking doctor.

 

Have a little respect for the dead, instead of trying to make yourself feel more educated, and right.

[Neon Genesis]

And again, you did not answer my question. If you don't know what God's will is, how do you know that it was God's will for people to go to the doctor? Again, you are flip-flopping. And I could say the same about you, YoYo. Why don't you show respect for the dead instead of trying to use that thread to make yourself feel more spiritual and worthy of God than your fellow Christians? Again, you should practice what you preach instead of only when it's convenient for you.

[R. S. Martin]

His eisegesis tells him it's wrong....

 

You've used that word so much, Gramps, that I finally looked it up in Answers.com. Reading one's own ideas into the text, esp. the biblical text. That is the main definition given. I read some more. I thought I knew exactly who did exegesis (deriving meaning from the text) and who did eisegesis (reading one's own ideas into the text). Then I came to a part that said everybody accuses their opponents of doing eisegesis. Yeah right--as though I needed to be told, and I did. Everyone needs to sling mud because that's just the way humans are, it seems. The Catholics think Holy Tradition is the One Right Way. The Jews think Christians cannot possibly read Jesus into the OT without doing eisegesis. And so it goes on down the line.

 

In Answers.com's own words:

 

Modern evangelical scholars accuse liberal protestants of practicing biblical eisegesis, while Mainline scholars accuse fundamentalists of practicing eisegesis. Catholics say that all Protestants engage in eisegesis, because the Bible can be correctly understood only through the lens of Holy Tradition as handed down by the institutional Church. Jews counter that all Christians practice eisegesis when they read the Hebrew Bible as a book about Jesus.

 

I was raised fundamentalist in the second half of the twentieth century and formally trained by mainline scholars in the first decade of the 21st century. And I am convinced the fundies do the eisegesis thing. I have studied some of the history behind the exegesis of mainline scholars and I think my position is sound. I do confess to being human, and therefore subject to all the tendencies and biases to which humans are prone. It's just that when you get all the biblical figures from Adam, Noah, and Moses to Jesus and the apostles thinking exactly like horse and buggy Mennonites living in the second half of the 20th century (which is when I was with them), I think the argument for eisegesis is extraordinarily strong.

 

The mainline scholars presented me with a radically different type of God and Bible and ancient Israel than I had known the previous forty-five years. As stated, I've done some research to learn how they arrived at this radically different idea. It was built into some of the courses and I did quite a bit of reading on my own. I'm by no means an expert on this but I'm getting some idea on it. However, I have not looked at the different scholarly methods, such as RC, Jewish, and Bob Jones University. All I have seen is Evangelical Lutheran and Old Order Mennonite.

 

Okay, that should probably have been reserved for an academic paper. Oh well, this is where I worked through my ideas--the rough drafts. Sorry folks. You have my permission (which you don't need) to just skip my convoluted ramblings.

[chefranden]

Well, that lowered the IQ level of the thread.

 

WHY THE HELL ARE YOU HERE? YOU DON'T TRY TO UNDERSTAND ANYONE, JUST TRY TO JUSTIFY WHY YOUR FAITH IS 'TRUE'.... cretin

 

Hey I just figured it out. John's a Catholic. He did something bad. Maybe screwed a Nun? This is penance for him or maybe they have internet in purgatory. He's got to make 10,000 posts and get poked in the eye for every one of them. Then he gets into heaven.

[chefranden]

If you claim that you don't know what God's will is, why did you just now turn around and say that God never said anything about not going to the doctor?

 

I was replying to a very sad, sick, disturbing topic about a set of parents that let their kid die because of stupidity. Commonsense. The comment about the 'God not saying to never go to the doctor' was a comment directed toward the stupidity of the people's prayer for faith, healing whatever instead of taking this girl to the freaking doctor.

 

Have a little respect for the dead, instead of trying to make yourself feel more educated, and right.

 

Ya payer is pretty stupid. Along with the rest of it. At least you've figured out some of it.

 

By the way what is the point about respecting the dead? Is this girl dead or alive? She's better off in heaven, laughing having a good time -- probably has only sung Amazing Grace 5 or 6 thousand times so far, so it is probably still fun. She won't care what you think of her. On the other hand, if things are as i suspect, she's dead, a piece of rotting meat; she still can't care.

[R. S. Martin]

Well. For starters, I never claimed I knew 'God's will'. I actually said the opposite to that; as I recall you starting this thread from your post in another thread. You assume I act as though I know 'God's will' because of a comment I made about God never saying anything about not going to the doctor. My opinion, you are desperately seeking a reason to speak your mind about this subject; using my totally not related post to connect the two subjects. But, whatever. I had to read your defense a couple of times because of your untimely, not thought through statement of question about 'my thoughts' on a topic entirely on this topic.

 

Moving on here, to address your question. I don't know why Christians claim to know the will of God other than the widespread teaching of 'having the mind of Christ, the Holy Spirit revealing all things/helping to learn the truth, being perfect in Christ, as Christ. All these are very common practices by different denominations. Did God say we would know what His will was? Biblically, no. The Bible says Sin shall lie at your door waiting for you, but you should rule over it. So. Direction Biblically, and knowing the all of God's will is different and not to complicated.

 

End. I assume Christians assume God's will. Is that a sufficient answer for you Ruby?

 

If you claim that you don't know what God's will is, why did you just now turn around and say that God never said anything about not going to the doctor?

 

I was replying to a very sad, sick, disturbing topic about a set of parents that let their kid die because of stupidity. Commonsense. The comment about the 'God not saying to never go to the doctor' was a comment directed toward the stupidity of the people's prayer for faith, healing whatever instead of taking this girl to the freaking doctor.

 

Have a little respect for the dead, instead of trying to make yourself feel more educated, and right.

 

No YoYo your post does not answer any questions for me. You pretend to know the minds and motives of total strangers without any investigation. I went through two of your posts here, and bolded the parts where you presume to know the motives of others. Talking to such people who pretend to read the minds and motives of others like you do is beside the point. You're wrong 99.999 percent of the time but absolutely refuse to believe it.

 

I also agree with the other problems pointed out by others regarding your posts.

[Abiyoyo]

And again, you did not answer my question. If you don't know what God's will is, how do you know that it was God's will for people to go to the doctor? Again, you are flip-flopping. And I could say the same about you, YoYo. Why don't you show respect for the dead instead of trying to use that thread to make yourself feel more spiritual and worthy of God than your fellow Christians? Again, you should practice what you preach instead of only when it's convenient for you.

 

Actually. No, I just thought it was stupid and made Christians look insane. So, yes as a Christian. I acknowledged the injustice of this situation and voiced my thought to it. Were the Muslims just 'blowing there horn' when educating the Americans of the different sects of Islam, when they wanted to kill them all?

 

It was wrong for that girl to die, and as a believer of Christ, prayer, and faith in God; I voiced my thought of stupidity and lack of common sense of the parents.

[Abiyoyo]

His eisegesis tells him it's wrong....

 

You've used that word so much, Gramps, that I finally looked it up in Answers.com. Reading one's own ideas into the text, esp. the biblical text. That is the main definition given. I read some more. I thought I knew exactly who did exegesis (deriving meaning from the text) and who did eisegesis (reading one's own ideas into the text). Then I came to a part that said everybody accuses their opponents of doing eisegesis. Yeah right--as though I needed to be told, and I did. Everyone needs to sling mud because that's just the way humans are, it seems. The Catholics think Holy Tradition is the One Right Way. The Jews think Christians cannot possibly read Jesus into the OT without doing eisegesis. And so it goes on down the line.

 

In Answers.com's own words:

 

Modern evangelical scholars accuse liberal protestants of practicing biblical eisegesis, while Mainline scholars accuse fundamentalists of practicing eisegesis. Catholics say that all Protestants engage in eisegesis, because the Bible can be correctly understood only through the lens of Holy Tradition as handed down by the institutional Church. Jews counter that all Christians practice eisegesis when they read the Hebrew Bible as a book about Jesus.

 

I was raised fundamentalist in the second half of the twentieth century and formally trained by mainline scholars in the first decade of the 21st century. And I am convinced the fundies do the eisegesis thing. I have studied some of the history behind the exegesis of mainline scholars and I think my position is sound. I do confess to being human, and therefore subject to all the tendencies and biases to which humans are prone. It's just that when you get all the biblical figures from Adam, Noah, and Moses to Jesus and the apostles thinking exactly like horse and buggy Mennonites living in the second half of the 20th century (which is when I was with them), I think the argument for eisegesis is extraordinarily strong.

 

The mainline scholars presented me with a radically different type of God and Bible and ancient Israel than I had known the previous forty-five years. As stated, I've done some research to learn how they arrived at this radically different idea. It was built into some of the courses and I did quite a bit of reading on my own. I'm by no means an expert on this but I'm getting some idea on it. However, I have not looked at the different scholarly methods, such as RC, Jewish, and Bob Jones University. All I have seen is Evangelical Lutheran and Old Order Mennonite.

 

Okay, that should probably have been reserved for an academic paper. Oh well, this is where I worked through my ideas--the rough drafts. Sorry folks. You have my permission (which you don't need) to just skip my convoluted ramblings.

 

Hey Ruby. Or.. it could be walking by faith for what someone believes.

[Abiyoyo]

His eisegesis tells him it's wrong....

 

You've used that word so much, Gramps, that I finally looked it up in Answers.com. Reading one's own ideas into the text, esp. the biblical text. That is the main definition given. I read some more. I thought I knew exactly who did exegesis (deriving meaning from the text) and who did eisegesis (reading one's own ideas into the text). Then I came to a part that said everybody accuses their opponents of doing eisegesis. Yeah right--as though I needed to be told, and I did. Everyone needs to sling mud because that's just the way humans are, it seems. The Catholics think Holy Tradition is the One Right Way. The Jews think Christians cannot possibly read Jesus into the OT without doing eisegesis. And so it goes on down the line.

 

In Answers.com's own words:

 

Modern evangelical scholars accuse liberal protestants of practicing biblical eisegesis, while Mainline scholars accuse fundamentalists of practicing eisegesis. Catholics say that all Protestants engage in eisegesis, because the Bible can be correctly understood only through the lens of Holy Tradition as handed down by the institutional Church. Jews counter that all Christians practice eisegesis when they read the Hebrew Bible as a book about Jesus.

 

I was raised fundamentalist in the second half of the twentieth century and formally trained by mainline scholars in the first decade of the 21st century. And I am convinced the fundies do the eisegesis thing. I have studied some of the history behind the exegesis of mainline scholars and I think my position is sound. I do confess to being human, and therefore subject to all the tendencies and biases to which humans are prone. It's just that when you get all the biblical figures from Adam, Noah, and Moses to Jesus and the apostles thinking exactly like horse and buggy Mennonites living in the second half of the 20th century (which is when I was with them), I think the argument for eisegesis is extraordinarily strong.

 

The mainline scholars presented me with a radically different type of God and Bible and ancient Israel than I had known the previous forty-five years. As stated, I've done some research to learn how they arrived at this radically different idea. It was built into some of the courses and I did quite a bit of reading on my own. I'm by no means an expert on this but I'm getting some idea on it. However, I have not looked at the different scholarly methods, such as RC, Jewish, and Bob Jones University. All I have seen is Evangelical Lutheran and Old Order Mennonite.

 

Okay, that should probably have been reserved for an academic paper. Oh well, this is where I worked through my ideas--the rough drafts. Sorry folks. You have my permission (which you don't need) to just skip my convoluted ramblings.

 

Hey Ruby. Or.. it could be walking by faith for what someone believes.

[Kratos]

They say it is a sign of the insane to only talk to yourself. I wonder if asking a question and getting upset if someone answers the question is another sign of insanity?

 

I also wonder why atheists and ex-Christians talk about Christians being exclusive and closed minded, and yet, they only want to hear from their own kind and have no respect for the beliefs or opinions of those who are different from them. Some call this being a bigot instead of being open minded, but I guess it is just semantics.

 

I sincerely hope you all find what you are looking for in life.

 

John

[Legion]

I sincerely hope you all find what you are looking for in life.

Sweet dreams are made of this

Who am I to disagree?

Travel the world and the seven seas

Everybody's looking for something

Some of them want to use you

Some of them want to get used by you

Some of them want to abuse you

Some of them want to be abused

 

Sweet dreams are made of this

Who am I to disagree?

Travel the world and the seven seas

Everybody's looking for something

Some of them want to use you

Some of them want to get used by you

Some of them want to abuse you

Some of them want to be abused

 

I wanna use you and abuse you

I wanna know what's inside you

(Whispering) Hold your head up, movin' on

Keep your head up, movin' on

Hold your head up, movin' on

Keep your head up, movin' on

Hold your head up, movin' on

Keep your head up, movin' on

Movin' on!

 

Sweet dreams are made of this

Who am I to disagree?

Travel the world and the seven seas

Everybody's looking for something

Some of them want to use you

Some of them want to get used by you

Some of them want to abuse you

Some of them want to be abused

 

I'm gonna use you and abuse you

I'm gonna know what's inside

Gonna use you and abuse you

I'm gonna know what's inside you

[IAm_Lucifer]

I also wonder why atheists and ex-Christians talk about Christians being exclusive and closed minded, and yet, they only want to hear from their own kind and have no respect for the beliefs or opinions of those who are different from them.

 

It's not disrespect of other beliefs. It's being sick and tired of christians who think that their belief equals truth.

[Grandpa Harley]

Hey Ruby. Or.. it could be walking by faith for what someone believes.

 

It's actually apologist double speak for 'pulling it out of your arse' ... but then, eisegesis is your bread and butter as much as it is John "I'm Jesus' Best Friend EVAH!' Kratos, you sad, insane little man...

[Grandpa Harley]

I also wonder why atheists and ex-Christians talk about Christians being exclusive and closed minded, and yet, they only want to hear from their own kind and have no respect for the beliefs or opinions of those who are different from them.

 

It's not disrespect of other beliefs. It's being sick and tired of christians who think that their belief equals truth.

 

You are indeed a bringer of light...

[Grandpa Harley]

If you claim that you don't know what God's will is, why did you just now turn around and say that God never said anything about not going to the doctor?

 

I was replying to a very sad, sick, disturbing topic about a set of parents that let their kid die because of stupidity. Commonsense. The comment about the 'God not saying to never go to the doctor' was a comment directed toward the stupidity of the people's prayer for faith, healing whatever instead of taking this girl to the freaking doctor.

 

Have a little respect for the dead, instead of trying to make yourself feel more educated, and right.

 

OY FUCKSTICK!

 

If you don't like the tone, then just take your sorry ass to the door and don't let it hit you on the way out... anyone of us here would have shown more respect to the living than your fucking family in Christ, so just reel the pontificating attitude in and fix your own fucking house before telling us how to behave in our, you suppurating canker sore on the rectum of humanity....

 

I'd suggest preaching the gospel of 'common sense' where it's needed rather than sticking around like a the stench of a dead rat in the skirting for years trying to convert the 'fallen' who are, to a 'man', better people than most... you, sir, are a leech. A millstone about the neck of humanity that would better serve it by keeping your dumb ass mouth SHUT!

[hereticzero]

They say it is a sign of the insane to only talk to yourself. I wonder if asking a question and getting upset if someone answers the question is another sign of insanity?

 

I also wonder why atheists and ex-Christians talk about Christians being exclusive and closed minded, and yet, they only want to hear from their own kind and have no respect for the beliefs or opinions of those who are different from them. Some call this being a bigot instead of being open minded, but I guess it is just semantics.

 

I sincerely hope you all find what you are looking for in life.

 

John

We want to hear from our 'own kind' because we've heard your bullshit and that from every other funny-mental that ever crossed our paths. Christians rely upon a book of fairy tales to prove their points, which prove nothing to us or anyone with half a brain. I have yet to talk to myself and have someone else fulfill what I was talking to myself about. We do not have to have respect for your beliefs and opinions about religion, god or whatever slides through your brain at the time. Those are your beliefs, not mine. You go home and respect them all you want to. Christianity deserves no respect for the persecution of innocent peoples and the flaky shit you insist we respect for your beliefs. Forget it. Get a life.

[Grandpa Harley]

 

 

The Jews are right...

[Grandpa Harley]

They say it is a sign of the insane to only talk to yourself. I wonder if asking a question and getting upset if someone answers the question is another sign of insanity?

 

I'd say claiming Jesus literally appeared to you is a pretty GOOD sign of insanity... but you troll it out like it's some holy shit...

[R. S. Martin]

I sincerely hope you all find what you are looking for in life.

 

John

 

If you actually mean that, then quit pissing in our cheerios. We actually like them--without your piss, that is. Too bad you don't like yours and have to wait for a "sweet by and by when you die."