Why would something good hide in darkness?

[Karl-777]

.....I have often stated I no longer believe that every single word in scripture is either directly divinely inspired, and/or technically "infallible" - however, that doesn't mean - overall - I doubt God was involved in providing information about himself and humans (who he created) through the use of what we now call "the Bible"....

OK, but that's not what this says:

ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

In light of your statement, I would like to know from you just exactly what criteria should be used to determine just which passages, if any, actually could be "divinely inspired". Or, maybe that's one of the passages that isn't. I'm glad to see that you are uncomfortable with the Numbers 31:17/18 passages. I wouldn't call that "instruction in righteousness".

 

......I'd like to say I can always figure out exactly when God will appear to "work a miracle" and intervene in situations where only his intervention can change the outcome of battles, etc... but I just can't seem to consistently figure God out (surprise, surprise!).

Well, it is certainly frustrating, Dennis. E.G.:

God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.

Just ask Cerise if biblegod was a "very present help in trouble". Just ask the two Christian campers, who were murdered on a Cali beach in their sleeping bags if biblegod was a "very present help in trouble". etc. How about this one?

Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth ALL thy diseases.

Terry Schiavo didn't get healed. Biblegod and his followers had 15 years to get the job done. The tsunami disaster would have been a great opportunity for believers to DEMONSTRATE on global TV that "Jesus'" prophecy in John 14:12 stating that believers would do his works was true, (and thus Christianity) by raising the 4-day dead, doing food multiplication, etc. As far as I'm concerned, I would not call a person who could not be depended upon to keep his word, a friend. In light of the demonstrated inconsistency of "perfect" biblegod (for whom "nothing is impossible") in the "word", I certainly would not call biblegod a deity to be worshipped.

 

Cerise,

 

If the reason I got "all huffy" with Karl was because I can't bear to see the awful implications of his insight -

What "implications" might those be, Dennis? And upon what authority would you attempt to base such "implications"?

 

....Come on Karl, I would think someone of your intelligence should know that - however, is it possible that you were just trying to humiliate people who you think fit into your broadbrushed approach to Christian thinking processes? - and is it possible you can conveniently forget what you know - in situations where that improves the effectiveness of your humiliating posts?....

No offence was intended, Dennis. This is a debate forum. We aren't the ones claiming to have "the only way to be saved" or "the only true religion". YOU are. No one is contesting the Wisdom of such passages as "love your neighbor as yourself", etc. Many religions around the world contain Esoteric Wisdom. It is up to YOU to demonstrate that your exclusionist claims are indeed what your Xtian dogma claims them to be. The only thing that would be humiliating is to claim something as "the only absolute truth"/"the only way to be saved"/"the only true religion", in a public debate forum, and then not be able to defend those claims.

 

With regard to "Christian thinking processes", you might want to read some of the insanity of Roberston, Falwell or the Reconstructionists and their dreams of a Xtian theocracy (in abrogation of the Constitution) in the U.S.A. In light of the sordid history of the church-state, we don't think that is a good idea.

 

Regards,

 

K

[SOIL]

.....I have often stated I no longer believe that every single word in scripture is either directly divinely inspired, and/or technically "infallible" - however, that doesn't mean - overall - I doubt God was involved in providing information about himself and humans (who he created) through the use of what we now call "the Bible"....

OK, but that's not what this says:

ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Karl,

 

Yes I suppose I was not communicating very clearly -I didn't use words as precisely as I should have. I suspect you know as well as I, there are different ways of interpreting the meaning of the words 'all' and 'scripture'. When 1 Timothy was written, I'm not really certain how strict the line was drawn concerning which writings constituted a canonized set of "scripture" - though in any case, the New Testament books would not have been officially decided upon for some time into the future.

 

So the technical definition of which specific words were to be considered as 'scripture' is not as clear cut as some might like it to be. Also when the word 'all' is used - it may only be fully inclusive of everything within a particular sub-grouping - it did not have to mean every single word of a specific group of books - and even if it did mean each and every word - it would mean only every single word within the sub-group of those correctly considered to technically be 'scripture'. I think what was meant was that all the main ideas of scripture are given by God for his glory and for our benefit etc...

 

I am just saying that I read 'scripture' in the English language - and as Cerise pointed out - even when I say or write the word 'Jesus', I am not referring technically to the same combination of characters used either in the original New Testament writings and/or prophesied in Old Testament writings. However, the main ideas which God put into the hearts and minds of those he used to write 'scripture', I believe are inspired and are effective in bringing about God's purpose. Even though there may have been technical "errors" shown by specific words and phrases which have now diluted in varying measures the absolute perfection of the original ideas -- that does not mean I think there is no remaining value in what I read in my English translations of the 'Scriptures". I should have said I recognize there may be instances when some of the detail level specifics that I read in what is available to me - written in the translations I have available - may not be as reliable as "the big picture" of the main ideas God communicates to people via what is written in the Bible.

 

 

-Dennis

[dogmatically_challenged]

SOIL

there are different ways of interpreting the meaning of the words 'all' and 'scripture'.

Fine then. Throw in the towel until your god does finally show up to clear things up.

Until then you have NOTHING but speculation. If "all" and "scripture" don't mean what the words mean then you have no reliable method in decifering gods "word".

Don't set your mind on anything in that book until god shows up to the world and clears things up for us.

 

Welcome fellow heathen!

[SOIL]

...

In light of your statement, I would like to know from you just exactly what criteria should be used to determine just which passages, if any, actually could be "divinely inspired". ...

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Karl,

 

The Holy Spirit.

 

-Dennis

[Cerise]

Karl,

 

The Holy Spirit.

 

-Dennis

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What happens when different people claim conflicting messages from this so called Holy Spirit? Can you honestly say that you can tell the difference between Holy Spirit, Demons, and your own wishes and desires?

 

Scripture can't be accurate and neither can the Holy Spirit. What's left to determine the word of god?

[dogmatically_challenged]

Karl,

 

The Holy Spirit.

 

-Dennis

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah so! Thats what they all say yet no one can agree!

 

Your god obviously couldn't give a squat what people believe. Your god is like a Loki on PCP and shrooms!

[Vixentrox]

Karl,

 

The Holy Spirit.

 

-Dennis

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Holy Spirit tells me that the Bible is a big lie invented by Satan to lead you astray.

[SOIL]

What happens when different people claim conflicting messages from this so called Holy Spirit?  Can you honestly say that you can tell the difference between Holy Spirit, Demons, and your own wishes and desires?

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cerise,

 

Sometimes the Holy Spirit is a bit like you, he (also) encourages me to get off my butt and do something to help people who are not being helped by anyone else.

 

-Dennis

[dogmatically_challenged]

SOIL

Sometimes the Holy Spirit is a bit like you, he (also) encourages me to get off my butt and do something to help people who are not being helped by anyone else.

This is a naked assertion. It is fantasyland kinda thinking.

 

Just take occom's razor and say your conscience prods you to help people because you are a decent man. You havereason to because you can't explain how some atheists who gets off thier butts and do some things to help people who are not being helped by anyone else.

 

Funny how atheist don't need the holy spirit and you somehow do. Hmmmmm. Could it really just be you who prods himself to be a do gooder?

[Cerise]

Cerise,

 

Sometimes the Holy Spirit is a bit like you, he (also) encourages me to get off my butt and do something to help people who are not being helped by anyone else.

 

-Dennis

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The Holy Spirit seems about as effective as a human then. That is, not very.

 

And you didn't answer the question.

[SOIL]

...

If I am to believe in the bible again, now that I have had my eyes open, that means that I have to love a god that I see as not loving at all.  I have to accept a book that calls that evil sicko Moses "righteous", and that murdering, rapist, torturer, David as "righteous"!  Lot, "righteous", Abraham the incest man, "righteous", Jacob the LIAR and CHEAT, "righteous", I cannot do it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

thankful,

 

There is none righteous, no not one.

 

Some have recognized they need help from God, have become sorry about the times they refused his help, and have thrown themselves on his mercy. For instance, when Jacob finally confessed to God who he really was, (the one the meaning of his name referred to) - and saw his own face (so to speak) - God gave him a new name (after he died to who he was before). Also Jacob wrestled with God (I wonder if he saw him face to face during or after that match?).

 

...  Jesus righteous, even though he "threatens" eternal torment and is very anti-semitic.  Yes, yes, I realize that he is considered the Messiah but a study of the OT PROVES THAT HE WAS NOT, in fact, whether Jesus existed at all is very questionable.  If he did, he was not Jewish and certainly no Messiah, hence the anti-semitism throughout the NT, especially Jesus and Paul.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think I really understand completely exactly what you are referring to (especially concerning the anti-semitism of Jesus) - though I do realize, Jesus had some very powerfully negative things to say to the Jewish religious leaders at the time. Of course there is a lot of debate about whether Jesus fulfilled the OT prophesies regarding an earthly Messiah - and recently, about how historically provable the character of Jesus actually is (that is, apart from very old and very many New Testament copies - which still exist in relative abundance).

 

-Dennis

[dogmatically_challenged]

that is, apart from very old and very many New Testament copies - which still exist in relative abundance)

 

These are not contemporary eye witness accounts. They also read like a fable. A story. They can't even get jesus's lineage right.

 

He made no splash when he was alive. All we have are accounts that read like fiction. Funny how none during his life reported the dead rising from thier graves and prancing about.

 

If you are going to say jesus existed then you should also say hercules existed and that he was the son of zues. There is no more evidence for jesus than hercules.

 

And who cares if there are so many copies of the bible fiction? People liked it. Don't mean any of it is true.

[SOIL]

...

And you didn't answer the question.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What happens when different people claim conflicting messages from this so called Holy Spirit?  Can you honestly say that you can tell the difference between Holy Spirit, Demons, and your own wishes and desires?

 

Scripture can't be accurate and neither can the Holy Spirit.  What's left to determine the word of god?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cerise,

 

You can look at history and see what happens when people claim they are receiving conflicting messages from the Holy Spirit.

 

Usually I evaluate whether something is likely to have come from the Holy Spirit, based on what I have learned from the words of Jesus (taken as a whole - from the basic high-level themes) - these include such things as Love for God and Love for each other - the kind of love that is willing to sacrifice my own comfort for the benefit of those who I love. So the Bible helps me to recognize the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit helps me to understand the Bible.

 

Demons and/or my own wishes and desires may encourage me to look at things outside of the big picture - as if eternity is not something that is of any concern to me - (eternity being associated with things of relevance which happen both chronologically before and after my physical body has breathed air in this world).

 

Scripture can be trustworthy overall (and I think it is!) - and also the Holy Spirit can be helpful - even if sometimes I don't completely recognize his leadership as well as would be ideal. The word of God is powerful enough to see to it that it is identified as is necessary to enact the overall plan of God - who was instrumental in providing his word.

 

I think BOTH that God is ultimately in control - AND - I think people can and do make differences.

 

Again - I refer you to Time and Eternity.

 

-Dennis

[Vixentrox]

The word of god....Crusades, slavery, rape, murder.....all done in the name of god. The majority of them I'm quite sure felt very faithful and guided by the holy spirt. And who can blame them, look at what god directed his chosen people to do.

[SOIL]

...

If you are going to say jesus existed then you should also say hercules existed and that he was the son of zues. There is no more evidence for jesus than hercules....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

D_C

 

Ask Lokmer if there is "no more evidence for jesus than for hercules".

 

The real question is whether the many manuscripts of various portions of the New Testament and the writings of the early church fathers - constitute "evidence" that Jesus existed.

 

I think the answer is a resounding "yes". There are others who don't agree with me.

 

There are certainly many documents (written much closer to the time he is supposed to have lived on this planet than this time) saying he did exist - if you think they all come from made up story tale types of stories - then you must believe the rise of Christianity was inspired only based on tales without any historical foundation (even back that close to the supposed time of Jesus' existence). I personally don't buy that type of "logic" - some do.

 

-Dennis

[Vixentrox]

The early church fathers had a vested interest in spreading thier text....you need more outside sources. If Jesus did all the crap he supposedly did, a bunch of people would have taken notice and wrote about it.

[Fweethawt]

then you must believe the rise of Christianity was inspired only based on tales without any historical foundation (even back that close to the supposed time of Jesus' existence).  I personally don't buy that type of "logic" - some do.

 

-Dennis

 

I wouldn't buy that either. Not after reading THIS anyway.

 

 

(Yeah, that's a link up there. Click on the 'THIS'.)

[Cerise]

Cerise,

 

You can look at history and see what happens when people claim they are receiving conflicting messages from the Holy Spirit.

 

Sure. History says that when people get conflicting messages from the Holy Spirit they fight about it and call each other "non-Christians" or "pagans" or "under the thrall of satan", maybe a war or two happens, some innocents get killed and whoever ended up winning the war take this as a sign that they were right, and whoever lost takes that as a sign that they are martyred people who will one day rise again with THE TRUTH.

 

But that still doesn't give me any clue as to who actually heard the Holy Spirit.

 

Usually I evaluate whether something is likely to have come from the Holy Spirit, based on what I have learned from the words of Jesus (taken as a whole - from the basic high-level themes) - these include such things as Love for God and Love for each other - the kind of love that is willing to sacrifice my own comfort for the benefit of those who I love.  So the Bible helps me to recognize the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit helps me to understand the Bible. 

 

What about the parts of the bible that contradict themselves? And how do you know the bible is a valid representation of the Holy Spirit anyway?

 

Demons and/or my own wishes and desires may encourage me to look at things outside of the big picture - as if eternity is not something that is of any concern to me - (eternity being associated with things of relevance which happen both chronologically before and after my physical body has breathed air in this world).

 

Because God forbid you concern yourself with problems that are plauging mankind in the here and now. That would require some actual action on your part.

 

Scripture can be trustworthy overall (and I think it is!)

 

Forgive me if I don't take your word for it.

 

- and also the Holy Spirit can be helpful - even if sometimes I don't completely recognize his leadership as well as would be ideal.  The word of God is powerful enough to see to it that it is identified as is necessary to enact the overall plan of God - who was instrumental in providing his word.

 

Would this be the same "plan" that includes massacre, rape. and abuse? Because I gotta say, that's not a great plan. A four year old could do better planning then that.

 

I think BOTH that God is ultimately in control - AND - I think people can and do make differences.

 

That is because you love absurdity. But unlike you, I only find myself annoyed by paradoxes, not entranced and enchanted by them.

 

Again - I refer you to Time and Eternity.

 

Again...I don't like Kreeft, I don't like what he has to say, and I don't wish to hear any more from him. He's already proved himself to be beneath my notice as a thinker. I'd rather read something by Joseph Conrad and get some involving thought out of it.

[SOIL]

The word of god....Crusades, slavery, rape, murder.....all done in the name of god.  The majority of them I'm quite sure felt very faithful and guided by the holy spirit.  And who can blame them, look at what god directed his chosen people to do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Vixentrox,

 

I understand where you are coming from. I call myself a Christian not a Jew. I think it is easier to understand God's true intents now that Jesus has made it possible for the Holy Spirit to indwell many people and for extended periods of time. You don't see so much of that in the Old Testament times. God has interacted with people differently at different times of history.

 

I'm don't know how the folks during the Crusades, and the folks who have raped, and murdered - supposedly based on leadership of the Holy Spirit - explained why the Holy Spirit (who was supposedly sent by Jesus) supposedly encouraged them to hurt other people - when Jesus said we should love even our enemies - and bless them - like God, who Jesus says "sends his rain on both the just and the unjust" - etc... Jesus said we should even lay down our life for each other. Jesus told the story of the good Samariton to insure that we wouldn't only call "our neighbors those who are like us and who like us. Jesus had the opportunity to hurt his enemies in the garden - when Peter cut off Malchus' ear - but Jesus decided to heal it instead of finishing the job and cutting off Malchus' whole head. Why would the Holy Spirit change the plans?

 

There are bad people - and bad people can, and have, and will, use many parts of the Bible to try to justify the bad things they do. They can say also say the Holy Spirit made them do it. The New Testament (and the OT for that matter) has some very harsh things to say about people who claim the Holy Spirit is telling them things which God does not actually say.

 

-Dennis

[Cerise]

Bad things like say killing your own child as a ritual sacrifice? That wacky Holy Spirit impersenator must have been winding his way through the bible as well!

[SOIL]

The early church fathers had a vested interest in spreading thier text....you need more outside sources.  If Jesus did all the crap he supposedly did, a bunch of people would have taken notice and wrote about it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Vixentrox,

 

I suspect they did - but some of the overzealous (supposedly Christian) folks in the early days of Christianity - decided they should burn most everything related to Jesus - that is - everything, except the stuff the big shots had formally "canonized".

 

Sheesh!

 

-Dennis

[Vixentrox]

Jesus didn't come to bring peace, but the sword remember? You can take the bible and read it any way you want to. That's why there are thousands of Xtian sects. Either the holy spirit is guiding all of them, none of them, or just one. In any case, there is a whole lot of Xtians who are damn sure they got the holy spirit.

[SOIL]

I wouldn't buy that either. Not after reading THIS anyway. 

(Yeah, that's a link up there. Click on the 'THIS'.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Free,

 

I read through some of that an earlier time the link was posted - it wasn't all that convincing to me then - but I can look through it again - more thoroughly this time - if that will make you happy.

 

-Dennis

[dogmatically_challenged]

D_C

 

Ask Lokmer if there is "no more evidence for jesus than for hercules".

 

The real question is whether the many manuscripts of various portions of the New Testament and the writings of the early church fathers - constitute "evidence" that Jesus existed.

 

I think the answer is a resounding "yes".  There are others who don't agree with me.

 

There are certainly many documents (written much closer to the time he is supposed to have lived on this planet than this time) saying he did exist - if you think they all come from made up story tale types of stories - then you must believe the rise of Christianity was inspired only based on tales without any historical foundation (even back that close to the supposed time of Jesus' existence).  I personally don't buy that type of "logic" - some do.

 

-Dennis

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lokmer can ask Hannibal or the crew at IG. All stories of jesus read like fiction. And there are no contemporary eye witnesses for jesus. I'd like to see a debate between Lokmer and AUB or Bruce. No contemporary eye witness accounts of jesus exist. No artifacts. No nothing ,besides mythology. Only dishonest people would use the early church fathers and any mythology book as a proof of jesus.

There is nothing for him outside of mythology books. He is equal to hercules.

[Vixentrox]

Vixentrox,

 

I suspect they did - but some of the overzealous (supposedly Christian) folks in the early days of Christianity - decided they should burn most everything related to Jesus - that is - everything, except the stuff the big shots had formally "canonized". 

 

Sheesh!

 

-Dennis

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And why would they burn supporting documentation unless perhaps it wasn't quite as complementry as they wanted? Hey, sounds a lot like Stalin, Kim Jong Il, ect. Burn whatever isn't complimentery. No unfavorable opinions allowed.