Not Completely Ex-christian, But Getting There

[Guest The Mercury Symbol]

I don't believe that I can conceive a universe without God. Since my youth I have always known there was a God. This isn't brainwashing, but just something I know inside and nothing I can present as absolute truth to anybody. On top of that, I firmly believe that, that God is the only contained in the Bible. Again, this is just something I know to be true inwardly, not something I can prove tangibly to any of you, though I'm sure some of you nderstand.

 

My problem is a deep seated hatred for Christianity ( not God ) and most Christians as well.

 

I'm about to graduate from a Bible college and have never felt further from the presence of God in my life. I put as much of myself into my studies as I could. Despite being a bad student who'd rather dream all day, I managed to attain a 3.9 GPA, I'm a very average person of intellect, mind you. I did this because I believed that God had brought me out of alcholism and drug addiction to this Bible college and saved my life. I believed that God had some wonderful purpose for my life and put as much of myself as I knew how into learning about this God who loved me so. Of course I'm not perfect, I occasionally struggled with lust and other things. But I believed that those who confess there sin, God is able to forgive.

 

So now you may be wondering what the hell I'm doing here, right? Well, after two years of Bible college, I believe there is something terribly wrong with me. Many of you may know about the Holy SPirit and His ability to give you the power to accomplish what God has for you... Anyway, I began to read about all these great evangelists and the stories of how the Holy Spirit came upon them and they had a trasformation in their life. I was convinced that God wanted to give me the same expeirence..... But no matter what I did, it never came. I would fast, pray, read, blah, blah, blah. It was after this that I began to lose faith that God wanted to use me. So then I was convinced that I had commited the unpardanble sin somewhere down the line, and naturally I became a wreck.

 

My life was suppose to be one lived in fellowship with God. That is why Jesus was propitiation for my sins right? So why is God silent? While I still sin, I always asked for forgiveness and the ability to turn away from them. Yet the temptations came back ever more powerfully than before. What else could be preventing fellowship with God? There just must be something inherently wrong with me.

 

This is where I am at now. Sometimes I get suicidal, but I would never follow through with it. Sometimes I just want to dissapear. I'm at the point that I almost wish I was still a addict than a born-again Christian. At least when I was an addict I knew what my problem was and how to fix it. But know I'm in some strange spiritual place where God has left me, yet still the desire to be with Him is there. I only posted this on this board because if anyone could understand what I'm going through, perhaps it is somebody here.

[Deva]

I don't believe that I can conceive a universe without God. Since my youth I have always known there was a God. This isn't brainwashing, but just something I know inside and nothing I can present as absolute truth to anybody. On top of that, I firmly believe that, that God is the only contained in the Bible. Again, this is just something I know to be true inwardly, not something I can prove tangibly to any of you, though I'm sure some of you nderstand.

 

I can understand the first part of your statement very well. I even agree with it. If I may ask though, why is God contained only in the Bible?

 

My problem is a deep seated hatred for Christianity ( not God ) and most Christians as well.

 

You will find a lot of company here. Personally I am way past the decoversion stage and I don't have nearly as much anger as I used to. I don't hate Christian people but the system I do hate. I was raised in the Fundamentalist Baptist Church and it took me 30 years to get out of it.

 

So now you may be wondering what the hell I'm doing here, right? Well, after two years of Bible college, I believe there is something terribly wrong with me.

 

Christianity excells in producing a guilt trip on people and in general making them feel inferior. It is never God's fault if things are wrong, its always the person's fault.

 

I only posted this on this board because if anyone could understand what I'm going through, perhaps it is somebody here.

 

We have not all gone to Bible college but some of us have. I am sure you will find some help here and people who can help, if you read with an openness to understand other points of view outside of Christianity.

[florduh]

Hello, Merc!

 

I think you might find a few here that can relate.

 

As I studied the Bible, commentaries, attended Moody, trying to be the best follower of Christ I could be, it happened. Not overnight, but surely and irreversibly. As I studied I came to realize the problems with the Bible. As the Bible is the only basis we have for Christianity, if it proves to be unreliable as the word of God, then it follows that Christianity is a sham built on myths written by men. I also was on my face begging God to help me serve, give me faith, something. No answers ever came.

 

I suspect that on some level as you study the Bible, its history, see the tortured arguments apologists make to somehow prove it all true, you are on at least some level coming to the same conclusion I and many others have come to. It is a painful realization after all the hope you were fed and the emotional investment you have in the religion.

 

Look around here, especially at the testimonies. Some of us are still angry, depressed, and a little sensitive. Others of us are over it and either blasphemous or totally lacking any emotional vesting any more.

 

Keep looking, and give yourself a little credit for kicking the addictions. There is nothing inherently wrong with you. You're much better than they led you to believe.

 

- Chris

[Guest The Mercury Symbol]

I can understand the first part of your statement very well. I even agree with it. If I may ask though, why is God contained only in the Bible?

Because all religions make different truth claims about God. For instance Islam teaches that Jesus was a prophet, but not the Son of God. This completely contridicts the Biblical account, which is older and has better evidence as far a manuscripts go. Point being, one of them can't be true rationally. So to say that all religions lead to the same God isn't true, because the God of Christianity states that He only is God and there are no other God's before Him.

 

 

 

You will find a lot of company here. Personally I am way past the decoversion stage and I don't have nearly as much anger as I used to. I don't hate Christian people but the system I do hate. I was raised in the Fundamentalist Baptist Church and it took me 30 years to get out of it.

It was studying through church history that I came to this feeling.

 

anyways, thanks for the reply

[pitchu]

Welcome, Mercury.

 

You'll find a lot of compassion and many stories similar to yours in these forums.

 

A question: Have you left Christianity? Your answer will help me decide whether to leave your topic in this forum or put it in another, since this forum is only for testimonies of those having severed themselves from Christianity. Check the forum guidelines, if you wish, to determine your answer, and I'll proceed on the basis of whatever you tell me.

 

Again, welcome.

[Piprus]

Welcome, Merc...

 

Clearly you're in conflict within yourself, and feeling the stress of it. Are you still a christian, or have you already exited christianity in favor of a more Deistic worldview? You wouldn't be the first if that is true. I'm getting a message that you just cannot accept being brainwashed with irrational nonsense, and would rather view life as a journey on its own terms than a waystation to either heaven or hell.

 

As Pitchu said, you may have a testimony, or you may just be at the stage of being full of questions and conflicts that yet await resolution. Either way, say what's on your mind. You'll find a lot of friendly people here, many with a helluva lot more knowledge on theology and philosophy than I've got. Either way, welcome...

[R. S. Martin]

Mercury, I just spent several years studying theology at a seminary. I have never been able to find evidence for God but now I read a lot of theologians, plus I had some excellent teachers to ask questions and learn from. I could not find answers to my deep, lifelong questions about Jesus and salvation--not even from all these learned people and their writings. This was not just a Bible college. This was advanced graduate studies.

 

My point is that you are right in having serious questions. You are in good company. All of us have different stories. I think many of us did go through some of the things you describe. If the time comes that you want to look more closely at your questions I'm sure people here will be happy to do that with you. We have forums for such discussions. You might also find some answers just by reading. Whatever works for you.

[Deva]

My problem is a deep seated hatred for Christianity ( not God ) and most Christians as well.

 

Mercury, if that is true, I am at a loss why you feel the need to defend it such as you are doing on the other thread regarding Paul.

 

So now you may be wondering what the hell I'm doing here, right?

 

Honestly, yes we do. If you have a true desire to break away from Christianity we can help you, otherwise, no, we don't need to be convinced of the "truth" of the scriptures.

[Grandpa Harley]

I said elsewhere, the place is AA for the cult survivors... you've made an excellent first step.

[SWIM]

This is where I am at now. Sometimes I get suicidal, but I would never follow through with it. Sometimes I just want to dissapear. I'm at the point that I almost wish I was still a addict than a born-again Christian. At least when I was an addict I knew what my problem was and how to fix it. But know I'm in some strange spiritual place where God has left me, yet still the desire to be with Him is there. I only posted this on this board because if anyone could understand what I'm going through, perhaps it is somebody here.

 

Heyya!

 

Welcome, hope your deconversion goes smoothly, sometimes it can be rough.

 

The others here probably seen me "plug" this site http://godisimaginary.com/ a million times, but it's a great first step for seriously considering xtianity. (not affiliated with it).

 

Give it a look, it's not harsh, or offensive. Very educational.

 

I would also suggest reading the testimonials here as well.

 

Good luck!

[Mongo]

Merc,

 

I just got to this thread and only read it because I saw your name.

 

I can now see why I responded differently to your posts on the Paul thread and better understand your willingness to say you don't have all the answers.

 

I can't imagine what it is like to be in bible college and having a crisis of faith. That must be excruciating.

 

I can only encourage you to look to the future and not back to your drug/alcohol filled days.

 

As to thinking god would give you strength to be a different person than who you are naturally, this was my downfall too.

 

I became a better person when I took it upon myself to learn about human behavour, to understand myself and others and to figure out my place on this planet. I found more help on the self-help shelf of my local bookstore than I did in the bible.

 

As I watched others in my church, I noticed that they were not getting the help and advice they needed because it often contradicted the stock answers which were to pray and read the bible more.

 

I found that simple books like Dale Carnagie's How to Win Friends and Influence People had more wisdom in them than the convoluted book of Proverbs or Psalms.

 

I remember spending hours praying so god would shower his spirit on me - and that did happen - but it would never last. People would say that when it starts to wear off, you have to keep "praying through". I couldn't do it and that was a contradiction. Why didn't god give me the strength to keep praying through to him? Was it my fault? And if it is 'my' fault - doesn't that mean that god rewards the 'works' of praying?

 

It just drove me batty and I one day realized that this fundamentalist theology was a pile of nonsence. It just could not be true.

 

Good luck!

 

Mongo

[mwc]

Unlike the others, I am not in a "loving" mood right now...but lets give this a shot anyhow...

 

On top of that, I firmly believe that, that God is the only contained in the Bible.

Finally, we get to some "truth" as it were. "God," meaning your version of the thing called "god," is only found in your book. This is a good thing to understand.

 

My problem is a deep seated hatred for Christianity ( not God ) and most Christians as well.

And you don't hate "god," why? Why is it that you don't hold the top man of the organization responsible for the actions of the employees? It's not like this is a human leader that could be deceived or misled and not know what the employees were up to. No, this is a leader that knows *exactly* what each and every member of his staff is doing...TO YOU! And does nothing. Let's both hope that at some future "meeting" that these people "get what's coming to them" shall we? Let's hope that really hard because it makes things that much easier on our CEO in the here and now. Now tell me why you do NOT hold this "god" responsible for not helping (since I'm sure you've asked and "reported" these others to him...not that "reports" should be needed).

 

I managed to attain a 3.9 GPA, I'm a very average person of intellect, mind you.

Congrats.

 

I did this because I believed that God had brought me out of alcholism and drug addiction to this Bible college and saved my life.

I don't follow. You got a good GPA because "god" did this for you? Did you make one of those "deals" with "god" that said if you do X then I'll do Y? Or did you get good grades believing that you'd go back to the other life if you didn't succeed? Or what? Maybe it's me but there seems to be a slight disconnect here.

 

So now you may be wondering what the hell I'm doing here, right? Well, after two years of Bible college, I believe there is something terribly wrong with me.

Why would I think that? My own brother dropped out of bible college after about this length of time to go into computers. He was going to be a minister. Once the college started showing that xians didn't have the original thinking on all this stuff he decided he couldn't be true to himself and others by preaching it and quit (yes, I am simplifying the story). It happens.

 

Many of you may know about the Holy SPirit and His ability to give you the power to accomplish what God has for you... Anyway, I began to read about all these great evangelists and the stories of how the Holy Spirit came upon them and they had a trasformation in their life.

No. I don't know this. These are the stories people tell others to gain converts. If I accept these stories then I accept Mohammad flew to heaven on a horse and all the rest of these "powerful" stories. I don't.

 

I was convinced that God wanted to give me the same expeirence..... But no matter what I did, it never came. I would fast, pray, read, blah, blah, blah. It was after this that I began to lose faith that God wanted to use me. So then I was convinced that I had commited the unpardanble sin somewhere down the line, and naturally I became a wreck.

And like fad diets and many other things...IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT! You even say so. What a pity. A 3.9 GPA. A guy who does the humility thing (not that you're faking) but obviously works hard and/or is smart and throws that into the crapper all because you can't get some magic feeling that other people say they got? Really? Can you see the problem here? You are CAPABLE but you've not even considered that to mean anything since, really, the bible and these "evangelists" really don't equate YOUR achievements to mean jack shit. So either understand what you have done means something and have some (dare I say) PRIDE in what YOU have accomplished or forever wait for this cosmic orgasm that may never come.

 

My life was suppose to be one lived in fellowship with God. That is why Jesus was propitiation for my sins right? So why is God silent? While I still sin, I always asked for forgiveness and the ability to turn away from them. Yet the temptations came back ever more powerfully than before. What else could be preventing fellowship with God? There just must be something inherently wrong with me.

My answer to why "god" is silent is because there is no "god." Pretty simple, huh? But I doubt you're quite ready for that answer.

 

I'll give you another answer. STOP READING PAUL! Paul hated himself and his cursed body (you know, the one with the "thorn" that "god" would never heal). Read some James. It's in the back of your book too. Go on. Read it. It really will take a little of that edge off.

 

This is where I am at now. Sometimes I get suicidal, but I would never follow through with it. Sometimes I just want to dissapear. I'm at the point that I almost wish I was still a addict than a born-again Christian. At least when I was an addict I knew what my problem was and how to fix it. But know I'm in some strange spiritual place where God has left me, yet still the desire to be with Him is there. I only posted this on this board because if anyone could understand what I'm going through, perhaps it is somebody here.

Being an addict didn't fix shit and you know it. Being addicted to jesus didn't fix shit and you know that now too. Being "addicted" isn't the answer. Now you're fucked. Or are you. Dammit! You've got the ability to get the grades. So get the grades. Stop waiting for "god" and just keep going. You're looking the gift horse right in the mouth. If your "god" wants you to wash out because he won't make a peep then he's a grade-A dick. If you waste your chance waiting for this silent "god" to talk then you're an idiot.

 

mwc

[R. S. Martin]

I see this thread is now in the Theology section. Excellent place for it to be in, rather than the Testimonies where it was first posted.

 

I became a better person when I took it upon myself to learn about human behavour, to understand myself and others and to figure out my place on this planet. I found more help on the self-help shelf of my local bookstore than I did in the bible.

 

......

I found that simple books like Dale Carnagie's How to Win Friends and Influence People had more wisdom in them than the convoluted book of Proverbs or Psalms.

 

Not to detract from Mercury's questions....Mongo, no wonder you and I think so much alike--we've been down the same road and read the same stuff! Mercury, I know self-help books have gotten some bad rap but they really do help. It's what got me started on the road to recovery. I started off with a few good Bible passages but there just wasn't enough detail or insight there on emotions and psychology and interpersonal relationships.

If you're sold on fundamentalist religion you won't believe a word of what I'm saying and you might as well not be here. The fact that you are here suggests to me that you're looking for something slightly different from fundamentalist biblicism.

 

Here's something I wanted to ask before this thread was in the Theology section. Maybe now I can ask it.

 

I can understand the first part of your statement very well. I even agree with it. If I may ask though, why is God contained only in the Bible?

Because all religions make different truth claims about God. For instance Islam teaches that Jesus was a prophet, but not the Son of God. This completely contridicts the Biblical account, which is older and has better evidence as far a manuscripts go. Point being, one of them can't be true rationally. So to say that all religions lead to the same God isn't true, because the God of Christianity states that He only is God and there are no other God's before Him.

 

That bolded sentence presupposes that what the God of Christianity says is true. What is your foundation for that presupposition? To put it bluntly, if you use the Bible to prove the Bible, how will you convince someone who thinks the Bible is hogwash? Maybe someone else has already asked this question. This post has been sitting here waiting to be written while I did other things so I don't know what all has been written in the thread since Mongo's post. However, I think it's an important question to look at in case no one has yet raised it.

[R. S. Martin]

You've got the ability to get the grades. So get the grades. Stop waiting for "god" and just keep going. You're looking the gift horse right in the mouth. If your "god" wants you to wash out because he won't make a peep then he's a grade-A dick. If you waste your chance waiting for this silent "god" to talk then you're an idiot.

 

mwc

 

And I want to add that being or not being a Christian does not determine whether or not you get an education in theology or biblical studies. I was about mid-way through my Masters degree in theology when I deconverted and I just kept on. Others have dropped out when they deconverted. I'm at a fairly liberal school. Given the problems I've run into, I can see why people in fundy schools drop out. We have one man on here who waited till the end of the semester, went home, then just didn't return after Christmas. Instead, he cancelled his classes and sent letters to his school and profs. I'm not sure, I think perhaps he was working on his PhD in Ministry.

 

I think I can use my degree in theology for work outside Christianity. Biblical studies is something that lots of people do whether or not they are Christian--it's just the study of ancient texts. Ministry is probably the only thing for which you have to be Christian.

 

My guess is that the work you are doing at the Bible college will prepare you for more advanced studies in another area (in the case you decide not to continue in Christian education) if you are getting such good grades. It's something you could look into if you're interested.

[Guest The Mercury Symbol]

And I want to add that being or not being a Christian does not determine whether or not you get an education in theology or biblical studies. I was about mid-way through my Masters degree in theology when I deconverted and I just kept on. Others have dropped out when they deconverted. I'm at a fairly liberal school. Given the problems I've run into, I can see why people in fundy schools drop out. We have one man on here who waited till the end of the semester, went home, then just didn't return after Christmas. Instead, he cancelled his classes and sent letters to his school and profs. I'm not sure, I think perhaps he was working on his PhD in Ministry.

 

I think I can use my degree in theology for work outside Christianity. Biblical studies is something that lots of people do whether or not they are Christian--it's just the study of ancient texts. Ministry is probably the only thing for which you have to be Christian.

 

My guess is that the work you are doing at the Bible college will prepare you for more advanced studies in another area (in the case you decide not to continue in Christian education) if you are getting such good grades. It's something you could look into if you're interested.

Actually, I really don't have any interest in a degree per say. Even if God doesn't exist this Bible college was great for me because it allowed me to get my head on straight and get my life together.

 

I've never had any desire to be a great theologian or apologist, I really just want to help people out. I'm actually hoping to go and spend time at a orphange in Mexico because I found that I really enjoy being with kids after my expeience at Boys and Girls Club. But if there is no God than why even bother? Eventually the universe will die and all we are and do is meaningless. I would be a fool to spend what little time I have on other people rather than myself.

 

Thanks for all your responces guys. I'm sure people like me annoy you, but it's good for me to get a different perspective on things and you guys have given me something to consider.

[florduh]

I'm actually hoping to go and spend time at a orphange in Mexico because I found that I really enjoy being with kids after my expeience at Boys and Girls Club. But if there is no God than why even bother? Eventually the universe will die and all we are and do is meaningless. I would be a fool to spend what little time I have on other people rather than myself.

 

 

That is the dumbest thing I ever heard.

[Guest The Mercury Symbol]

Merc,

 

I just got to this thread and only read it because I saw your name.

 

I can now see why I responded differently to your posts on the Paul thread and better understand your willingness to say you don't have all the answers.

 

I can't imagine what it is like to be in bible college and having a crisis of faith. That must be excruciating.

 

I can only encourage you to look to the future and not back to your drug/alcohol filled days.

 

As to thinking god would give you strength to be a different person than who you are naturally, this was my downfall too.

 

I became a better person when I took it upon myself to learn about human behavour, to understand myself and others and to figure out my place on this planet. I found more help on the self-help shelf of my local bookstore than I did in the bible.

 

As I watched others in my church, I noticed that they were not getting the help and advice they needed because it often contradicted the stock answers which were to pray and read the bible more.

 

I found that simple books like Dale Carnagie's How to Win Friends and Influence People had more wisdom in them than the convoluted book of Proverbs or Psalms.

 

I remember spending hours praying so god would shower his spirit on me - and that did happen - but it would never last. People would say that when it starts to wear off, you have to keep "praying through". I couldn't do it and that was a contradiction. Why didn't god give me the strength to keep praying through to him? Was it my fault? And if it is 'my' fault - doesn't that mean that god rewards the 'works' of praying?

 

It just drove me batty and I one day realized that this fundamentalist theology was a pile of nonsence. It just could not be true.

 

Good luck!

 

Mongo

Thanks man. I am getting incredibly frustrated. My faith crisis began recently when I went with a group to downtown San Deigo to give the homeless there food and to witness to them. I met a guy who was seriously messed up. He was a schizophenic (sp?) and pretty drunk to boot. I remember desperatly wanting to reach this guy. This is a guy who should be recieving medical treatment and he's walking the street and nobody cares about him. But I can't reach him. I really don't know what I expected, but I remember feeling incredibly powerless, desiring the power of God just to help this guy. The power never came and I had to drive away at this guy waving at me... I was heart broken because my grandmother suffers from the same disease that he has, yet hers is under control because she recieves medication.

 

I went home that night incredibly angry with God. Why couldn't that guy be healed through prayer? Why can't I be used as Peter was? I then began to go through in my mind all the prayers that havn't been answered and almost gave up right then and there. But I can't escape God... Even when I don't read the Bible or pray for periods of time I feel this great desire that God has for me. I'm sure I sound insane to some of you, but maybe some of you understand.

 

So that's where I'm at. I'll try and take a look at the books you mentioned mondo, and thanks again for being a cool guy. I love Blazing Saddles btw.

[Legion]

Bless your heart Mercury. You sound like one confused and frustrated individual to me. I hope you will find peace and understanding soon.

[R. S. Martin]

I've never had any desire to be a great theologian or apologist, I really just want to help people out. I'm actually hoping to go and spend time at a orphange in Mexico because I found that I really enjoy being with kids after my expeience at Boys and Girls Club. But if there is no God than why even bother?

 

Mercury, this is why:

 

BECAUSE IT MAKES YOU HAPPY.

 

Since I get only one life this one life has to be worth living. I have significant limitations. That does not keep me from living a quality life within those limitations. Some people have far greater limitations but they can still live a quality life inside those limitations. This is where we look at things worth more than money.

 

It makes you happy making kids happy. I can think of no better thing to do with the one life you have than to work with disadvantaged kids--give them something that they can pass on to their children and grandchildren that is worth more than money. Mercury, in that way you will have contributed to this world in great and important ways and you will live on in the memories of other people long after you are dead. The fruit of your labor will live on.

 

The universe will eventually die but not until long after we are gone. (Fundy Christians are always predicting the end of the world; I'm not sure why this is worse.) We can absorb this reality and live our own lives with joy. We can brighten our own corners and help the people where we are, regardless of what will happen in some far distant future. We can do this for the satisfaction that comes out of helping for its own sake. Did you mind being dead before you were born? I didn't. Why would we mind being dead after we're done living?

 

Just to be really honest here and give credit where credit is due, that idea (about not minding being dead before I was born) is not original with me but I forget who said it. I'm sure someone here knows.

 

Mercury, I don't believe for one minute that you would be the selfish person the Bible or Christianity says you would be if you stopped believing in God. That is just some crazy crap they tell you to keep you in the fold. If you leave, why, then you would no longer put any offerings in the offering plate. If all the young people leave, who will keep up the churches? THAT, my friend, is a major concern of the church authorities.

 

It's not as though the churches are needed to keep the hospitals and charities alive; it's just that with the majority of the American population being church people that is where the money is at this point in history. Secular organizations are beginning to organize philanthropic endeavors, too, but they have not got the membership and money at this point to do what the powerful churches do.

 

One of my agnostic friends goes with the Christians for the local Habitat for Humanity to build homes. Secular organizations in this area are mighty few and far between. He believes in helping people and that is an opportunity that is open to him.

[R. S. Martin]

Thanks for all your responces guys. I'm sure people like me annoy you, but it's good for me to get a different perspective on things and you guys have given me something to consider.

 

You don't annoy me at all, Mercury. You seem to have a problem of the sort I may be able to provide insight on and that is what I live for--helping people solve their problems. I have a special interest in helping students find their way, or helping people sort through who they really are, or what career they love most. What I would find annoying would be if I found out later that you aren't who you claim to be, and that you were just playing with us, or some such nasty thing.

 

I forgot to say this in my other post, but if you help people because it makes you happy, the bottom line is that you are doing things only for yourself, yet it benefits a lot of other people. And when you make the people around you happy they will treat you nice, too. It's a win-win situation all around.

[Telesmith]

But if there is no God than why even bother? Eventually the universe will die and all we are and do is meaningless. I would be a fool to spend what little time I have on other people rather than myself.

 

Hey there. I'm a bit late in this discussion and wasn't going to post but what you said above really bugged me. For the record, you're not annoying. We get folks on here all the time that want nothing more then tell us what we already know and feel self important and our expense. A honest and seeking approach is refreshing, not annoying. Anyhow, the quote above is a case example of how Christianity prevents people from developing a real and personal morality. Up until this moment in your life your ethics have been borrowed - imported from a book and people that teach you nothing about making real descisions about right and wrong. From this moment on you are going to have to actually work out what is right and wrong on your own. No more shortcuts. I think you'll find rather quickly that the sentiment you expressed above leads to misery for you and those around you pretty quickly. There are plenty of good reasons to be and do good. Doing so because you were told to however is not one of them.

 

I would simply suggest that you start thinking about these things and call into question some of the Christian notions about morality. If you want resources, ask. The peeps around here are chalk full of them.

 

Peace,

TS

[wonderer]

Mercury,

 

I'm having a hard time telling for sure if you're on the level. I get the feeling from some of what you write that you're actually just playing with our heads. But I could be wrong, so I'll just make a general comment as though I am wrong.

 

To me, the essence of a "crisis of faith" is a cathartic struggle between the unique individual within each of us, and a religious system that wants us to conform to a particular social order and mindset. Christianity preys on people who have hit bottom, and are desperate for some kind of hope, some kind of human connection. People in that condition are easy to program, because they have no defenses left. The most effective form of brainwashing is reaching out in a very personal way to someone whose life is sinking by the bow, and throwing out a life line. It's the humanity that saves them, though - not some supernatural power. At some point, that human connection and caring begins to have an effect, and healing begins.

 

Unfortunately, they don't let go when the person's wounds are healed enough for them to begin to sort their own lives out. So here comes a "crisis of faith" - but it's not a crisis of faith at all, it's the first awakening of the human being within attempting to reassert control over his own life. The fundamentalists Christians will join ranks at that point to cast out the demon of doubt, and overwhelm the convalescent human being with talk of supernatural mumbo jumbo, interspersed with bible verses and a hand clapped on the shoulder (human touch again), to push the individual back down. Sometimes it works for a while, but then, like a bird trying to fly, that free spirit tries to escape again, only to be smothered in guilt and self-recrimination.

 

Eventually, they don't have to spiritually and psychologically bully the convert anymore, because his own guilt and self-loathing kicks in. That's what lies at the core of Christianity, after all: original sin. We are all shit, right? And that's what you're struggling against. It's not God - it's programming, and confusing the healing power of apparent human compassion with God.

 

I don't know you from Adam, and you don't know me, but just think about it.

 

 

Rob

[Legion]

Mercury,

 

I'm having a hard time telling for sure if you're on the level. I get the feeling from some of what you write that you're actually just playing with our heads.

Rob, I had the same nagging suspicion. But I wanted to give the guy the benefit of the doubt.

[florduh]

That last post from Hg was pretty fucked up, and it also sounded like a swan song.

 

Benefit of doubt used up here. I tried.

[mwc]

I think I can use my degree in theology for work outside Christianity. Biblical studies is something that lots of people do whether or not they are Christian--it's just the study of ancient texts. Ministry is probably the only thing for which you have to be Christian.

Exactly. Look at people like Devers or Ehrman. The more they know the less they believe. Agnostic, at best, both of them now. It's amazing how people think that knowledge will set them "on fire" for "god" but, if they truly gain knowledge and not indoctrination, it kind of works out the opposite.

 

I think that there's a lot that non-believers in these fields can contribute since they're not going to be wrapped up in defending the faith.

 

mwc