Miracles witnessed by Freestyle Fred

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

This thread is a spin-off from the "Why do you remain a christian" thread.

 

FreestyleFred listed some events that he feels are miracles and that have helped him confirm that christianity is real (please correct me if I've characterized this wrong Fred).

 

I think they are worth discussing, because I am skeptical that these are miracles in the supernatural sense.

 

Here's what Fred wrote when I asked him to describe the miracles he has witnessed...

 

Yeah, sure, I can name a few situations. Some of these may seem a little odd if you weren't there, just to give you a future preparation:

1. I went to Creation Festival last summer in PA and it was the very last night of the whole thing. It was the Newzboys playing and I am not sure exactly what song they were playing, but it was a longer one and at the moment they were repeating the lyrics "rain down on me" over and over again. Then it slowed down and the singers sang more softly so the large crowd could start singing the lyrics, and at that moment I saw people start to point up to the sky and everything. I turned around and looked up and saw 3 shooting stars all together, 2 in the front and one in the rear.

Now, I understand that many shooting stars occur every night, but this was extremely amazing to me. Not only did they occur at the single moment when the crowd began to sing and a lot of people started to worship with the lyrics "rain down on me", but they were also perfectly visible. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there supposed to be quite a bit of darkness to clearly see shooting stars? Well, there were lights everywheres, it was around a huge campground all with lights and of course there was a huge stage with lights all around, so it surely was not dark. That is the first physical miracle that I saw.

 

2. This has actually happened in two different places, but the same situation. This past winter and spring I was quite limited on money, and that limited the amount of gas that I could keep in my car. I was always struggling to get some money so I could have enough gas to see my girlfriend a couple times a week (she lives 20 minutes away from me). Well, at these two situations I was basically empty; you know, when the arrow is starting to go below the little E line. One time I still had 10 minutes to drive, another I had 20 minutes to drive. Both times I was driving on flat roads, so my car wasn't going up and down, which would change how it reads the gas tank. Both times I was so worried that I wasn't going to get home, in fact, I didn't expect to be able to get home. It takes about 1/8 of a gas tank for me to drive 20 minutes, I prayed that the Lord would just help me get to the gas station so I could get some more gas in my car.

The first time, the one where I was driving for 10 minutes, I physically saw the needle go up, as if my gas tank was filling. I swear, I am not lying, I was not seeing things, and I am not insane, I saw the needle go up. It went up the second that I said "amen" (no, I do not close my eyes when I pray while driving, I just looked down at my guages)

The second time this happened, I had 20 minutes to drive with a basically empty gas tank. I prayed a prayer once again, just to ask to make it to the gas station to get gas. I made it all the way back, driving 20 minutes, on an empty gas tank. As I said earlier, it takes about 1/8 of a gas tank for me to drive that far, so for me to drive that far with basically no gas at all in my car is a miracle in itself.

 

3. This one may seem somewhat foolish, but I am going to tell it as well. First you must know that last spring I dislocated my ankle skateboarding, it was a second degree sprain and I tore all the ligaments on the left, right, and front of my ankle. My ankle is basically permanently swollen and it is somewhat damaged so that if I twist it, then it hurts waay more than a normal twist. I was skateboarding in my garage this past winter (because of the snow) and I just happened to land right on the side of my ankle and it twisted extremely badly. My first thought was that I was going to be out of skating for a while because I cannot twist that ankle or it is done for. I instantly started praying, I prayed that my ankle wouldn't be hurt and that it would be ok still. Amazing enough, or at least extremely amazing from my point of view, my ankle was completely fine! I had totally twisted it and it was fine, even with a normal ankle that would have been extremely painful. The pain went away and I was actually able to keep skating!! That was one of the most faith-strengthening things that has happened to me, as I said, this is more situational and "you had to be there" kind of thing.

 

I'd be curious if the other christians on the site agree that these are miracles?

 

Fred - I'm sure you'd agree that the things that happened to you could be coincidence and could have perfectly natural (as opposed to supernatural) explanations. What makes you so sure that these were moments where your god altered the natural progression of the world to make things better for you?

[Vixentrox]

Why does it have to be the Xtian god? Maybe they were signs from Thor?

[Guest FreestyleFred]

Fred - I'm sure you'd agree that the things that happened to you could be coincidence and could have perfectly natural (as opposed to supernatural) explanations.  What makes you so sure that these were moments where your god altered the natural progression of the world to make things better for you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, I agree that their is a possibility of pure coincidence within each of these cases. But each of these occurences really stuck out to me. Where non-Christians may say "luck", I say "God." The reason I feel it was God who altered things for me is because of the oddity that is within each of these happenings, each of them involve something that would be unexpected and would seem to almost defy a natural occurence.

 

As I have said, to some people these stories may seem like "you had to be there" ones, which is understandable when people look at things differently than if they were actually there to witness these "miracles" as I would call them. I hope to get some interesting responses. Would anyone be able to calculate the probability of these 3 shooting stars occuring at that moment and what the odds of them being fully visible?

[Ouroboros]

I've seen shooting stars while I sat on my porch and pondered about atheism, evolution, religion and mysticism. Maybe that was a sign that I was on the right track about apostacy?

 

I used to have a car where the gas needle would get stuck or show the wrong amount of gas. At few times it showed empty, and then all of a sudden I had a quarter tank. I didn't have to pray even to get that miracle.

 

Sprained ankle, hmmm, who knows, are you sure it wasn't just twisted a little bit, and the endorphins kicked in an subdued the pain?

 

I don't want to take away the awe and wonder you feel to there "miracles", but a miracle has to be more tangible and provable to be convincing...

 

Like, my son totally restored inside, that would blow me away and I would believe in an instant, and become the strongest preacher in the world. It's just a small matter of healing the spinal cord in three places, restore his removed bowels, and remove all internal scar tissue, and place all organs back that are lost, and put them back to their original place. Nothing big, really... And of course 8 years of lost childhood, pain and suffering.

[Ouroboros]

Yes, I agree that their is a possibility of pure coincidence within each of these cases. But each of these occurences really stuck out to me. Where non-Christians may say "luck", I say "God." The reason I feel it was God who altered things for me is because of the oddity that is within each of these happenings, each of them involve something that would be unexpected and would seem to almost defy a natural occurence.

 

As I have said, to some people these stories may seem like "you had to be there" ones, which is understandable when people look at things differently than if they were actually there to witness these "miracles" as I would call them. I hope to get some interesting responses. Would anyone be able to calculate the probability of these 3 shooting stars occuring at that moment and what the odds of them being fully visible?

I think there are huge amounts of shooting stars around the world day and night, so three of them, doesn't really strike me as wonderous, but more as coincidental.

 

When it comes to faith, we interpret what we see the way we want to interpret it.

 

For instance when I see an animal, I see a creature that has a conciousness not far removed from mine. Yes, less in understanding and complexity, but yet a living thing like me, with a "soul". (Not meant to be in a spiritual context, but rather a thinking/feeling entity)

 

(edit)

 

That makes me feel a oneness with life, nature, animals and the universe.

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

Like, my son totally restored inside, that would blow me away and I would believe in an instant, and become the strongest preacher in the world. It's just a small matter of healing the spinal cord in three places, restore his removed bowels, and remove all internal scar tissue, and place all organs back that are lost, and put them back to their original place. Nothing big, really... And of course 8 years of lost childhood, pain and suffering.

There are two general problems I have with the common concept of a miracle as an "unusual" occurrence.

 

1. They always seem to involve things that can be explained naturally. You never see documented cases where an amputee suddenly has his missing leg restored - something that would be fairly convincing. Instead, a twisted ankle isn't as bad as it could have been.

 

2. They often involve inconsequential acts - like Fred having enough gas to visit his girlfriend. Why is the christian god busy adding a little more gas into Fred's car when people starving in less fortunate places on earth are having their pleas for food for their dying babies being ignored? Does the christian god really have that much trouble prioritizing?

[Lizard]

I have freaky gas gauge too..sometimes it reads empty, and I think.."Damn..I'm gonna have to pump my gas or not make it home." Then..it goes back up and I am spared that chore..

 

I have "willed" pain away myself before..sort of a mind over matter thing, with meditation..no gods needed for that one either..

 

Shooting stars? Have seen them in broad daylight...

[Ouroboros]

There are two general problems I have with the common concept of a miracle as an "unusual" occurrence.

 

1.  They always seem to involve things that can be explained naturally.  You never see documented cases where an amputee suddenly has his missing leg restored - something that would be fairly convincing.  Instead, a twisted ankle isn't as bad as it could have been.

 

2.  They often involve inconsequential acts - like Fred having enough gas to visit his girlfriend.  Why is the christian god busy adding a little more gas into Fred's car when people starving in less fortunate places on earth are having their pleas for food for their dying babies being ignored?  Does the christian god really have that much trouble prioritizing?

I agree, the common miracles are the ones that are small in unimportant for the whole picture. More gas, getting over a cold in 1 day instead of 3, or food lasts a little bit longer etc. While the real hardcore, undeniable miracle doesn't happen.

 

This would be a miracle to prove the Christian God to be the one and only true god:

 

All terrorists come forward and admit their sins, and they turn to Christianity

 

All crops, rains etc in poor and starving nations all of a sudden get into balance and they won't starve anymore

 

All AIDS, Flu, sickness of any kind suddenly disappeared from earth, after one church of a few hundred people prayed.

 

My son, and my family got more simultaneous prayer than I ever have heard about before, and the miracle didn't show. Even the president of America prayed for us. Jesus was a bit of with 2-3 people praying to get anything, he probably mean 2-3 billion people.

 

This is the odd thing with faith and prayer too, you have a church of 2000 people asking God for a miracle for a poor and sick person, and the miracle doesn't happen. The excuse sometimes is someone (just one) didn't have faith, and stopped the miracle. It seems like one doubter is stronger than thousands of believers. Hmmm. Doubt as the size of a mustard seed can stop the faith of thousand believers... The Bible has to be rewritten...

[Ouroboros]

Oh, this is a cool phenomenon I saw once. This was just after my de-conversion and I was in a pantheistic/mystical phase.

 

I was walking the dogs a late night, and the moon was in full, with a ring far out surrounding it (this was considered a bad omen in the old days), this was the first time I saw it though.

 

And airplane had left a trail in the sky, and the trail was exactly underlining the moon crossing the ring from left to right. It was the coolest view I have ever seen.

 

It could have been a token of the pantheistic IPU that I had found the right religion...

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

I've given Fred's miracles some more thought and something else bothers me about them.

 

With the exception of the shooting stars, Fred's miracles give the impression that the christian god is rewarding irresponsible behavior.

 

The responsible thing would be to put enough gas in your car before you set our for your girlfriend's house, rather than setting out and hoping you can reach a gas station once the needle reaches the "Empty" mark. Why would the christian god encourage this type of behavior by saving the day at the end with a partial fillup?

 

If skateboarding has already caused serious ligament problems, then the responsible thing to do might be to take up a less dangerous activity. Instead of relying on miracles to prevent further damage.

 

It's my opinion that these events are a very shaky foundation for faith if you take an objective look at them.

[Totallyatpeace]

I don't want to take away the awe and wonder you feel to there "miracles", but a miracle has to be more tangible and provable to be convincing...

 

Like, my son totally restored inside, that would blow me away and I would believe in an instant, and become the strongest preacher in the world. It's just a small matter of healing the spinal cord in three places, restore his removed bowels, and remove all internal scar tissue, and place all organs back that are lost, and put them back to their original place. Nothing big, really... And of course 8 years of lost childhood, pain and suffering.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Kind of leaves us speechless, doesn't it, Fred?

 

To answer your question TFT...I have no idea. They could be miracles or coincidence. I desperately want to see a miracle and at this moment it would be sharing in Hansolo's request for a miracle.

 

Tap

[Guest FreestyleFred]

Why does it have to be the Xtian god? Maybe they were signs from Thor?

Probable, but why would they give these signs in a reaction to focus on the Christian God? Why would, say, Thor, give me signs when I was praying with my focus on the Christian God?

 

Like, my son totally restored inside, that would blow me away and I would believe in an instant, and become the strongest preacher in the world. It's just a small matter of healing the spinal cord in three places, restore his removed bowels, and remove all internal scar tissue, and place all organs back that are lost, and put them back to their original place. Nothing big, really... And of course 8 years of lost childhood, pain and suffering.

I am terribly sorry to hear about your son. It makes me feel more grateful for that which I have, especially both my health and my life. I do not know what more to say to this...

 

I think there are huge amounts of shooting stars around the world day and night, so three of them, doesn't really strike me as wonderous, but more as coincidental.

Yes, I do believe you are correct about many shooting stars occuring. That is why I specified that in the begining of my little story. The reason I did not feel it so coincidental is because of the timing that it occured at.

 

2. They often involve inconsequential acts - like Fred having enough gas to visit his girlfriend. Why is the christian god busy adding a little more gas into Fred's car when people starving in less fortunate places on earth are having their pleas for food for their dying babies being ignored? Does the christian god really have that much trouble prioritizing?

I am sure my response would be the common Christian response: Who are the starving people pleading to? Are they pleading to man, or are they pleading to the Lord? God does also feed many of these starving people, quite obviously doing it through others though. You cannot forget the people that are constantly on the quest to feed these people, the amounts of food shipped overseas and even given out here to these people. It would seem simply like a "half full or half empty" argument.

 

My son, and my family got more simultaneous prayer than I ever have heard about before, and the miracle didn't show. Even the president of America prayed for us. Jesus was a bit of with 2-3 people praying to get anything, he probably mean 2-3 billion people.

I would assume that it was God's Will for this to happen. I am a sole believer in "everything happens for a reason." No, I am not someone who has had the most perfect of lives, my entire childhood I struggled with far more pain and suffering than I feel any child should go through. I eventually came to understanding of the significant purpose of it. Especially the significant purpose of my breaking point, the point to which I became suicidal and I was going to kill myself. God got me through that time, and since then I have convinced 2 people not to commit suicide...two people are alive because of the pain that I had to go through, to me that made it worth it.

I realize I cannot fully understand the struggle your family has gone through with an experience like this, but I do understand that you have felt pain. I do believe there is some form of significant purpose for it all. Each and every person effects the rest of the world in some way, shape, or form...whether they believe it or not...

 

This is the odd thing with faith and prayer too, you have a church of 2000 people asking God for a miracle for a poor and sick person, and the miracle doesn't happen. The excuse sometimes is someone (just one) didn't have faith, and stopped the miracle. It seems like one doubter is stronger than thousands of believers. Hmmm. Doubt as the size of a mustard seed can stop the faith of thousand believers... The Bible has to be rewritten...

Why would this be cause for the Bible to need to be rewritten? Is it located somewheres within the Bible that one persons doubt can tarnish the faith of thousands? If there is, please let me know where it is located. I currently hold it true that one persons prayer can be just as powerful as a prayer by thousands.

 

It could have been a token of the pantheistic IPU that I had found the right religion...

What does IPU stand for? (Sorry if this is an uneducated question.)

 

Wow people post quickly on this forum, lol. I have read all of your posts, even if I didn't reply to each of them individually. They seem to simply hold that coincidence is the simple factor in these situations. The largest thing that would lead me away from coincidence, with at least the shooting star and the first gas stories, would be the moment in time that they occured. If it had been 1 shooting star at a random time (without lyrics that could have been vaguely applied) then I would surely have thought of it as more coincidence, but it was the fact that all 3 occured at the same moment together during those specific lyrics at that specific time. It just awed everyone else, and myself.

If the gas gauge had gone up 5 minutes after my prayer, I am sure I would still feel it as God's doing, but it wouldn't have had such an impact on me as it changing at the exact moment. I do not know of any occurences of my gas gauge sticking or anything of the sorts, the only time I see it really move is when I am going up and down hills and the slope that I am on. (Which is why I specified that I was driving on a flat road.)

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

I desperately want to see a miracle and at this moment it would be sharing in Hansolo's request for a miracle.

Yes, that's something we can all agree on.

[Guest FreestyleFred]

With the exception of the shooting stars, Fred's miracles give the impression that the christian god is rewarding irresponsible behavior.

Not entirely. I don't take it as more of God rewarding me for making my mistakes as I do of Him helping me get through and learn from my foolish mistakes. From the gas incidents I now check my gas gauge more often, it has become a better habit.

 

The responsible thing would be to put enough gas in your car before you set our for your girlfriend's house, rather than setting out and hoping you can reach a gas station once the needle reaches the "Empty" mark. Why would the christian god encourage this type of behavior by saving the day at the end with a partial fillup?

That was a result of my sheer stupidity and my terrible short term memory, lol. The situations that occured have helped aid in my memory to check my gas. I did not say "ohh, I think I will make it" before I drove off the second time. The first time was, as I said, my stupidity and my poor judgement, which I learned from.

 

If skateboarding has already caused serious ligament problems, then the responsible thing to do might be to take up a less dangerous activity. Instead of relying on miracles to prevent further damage.

Skateboarding is a passion that I have, almost an addiction one could say. If you twisted your ankle walking, would you stop walking? If you choked on food, would you stop eating?

 

It's my opinion that these events are a very shaky foundation for faith if you take an objective look at them.

They are not my entire foundation for faith. They are, in fact, one of the smallest portion of the large foundation that is my faith. Other parts of the foundation will most likely be revealed over time.

 

Kind of leaves us speechless, doesn't it, Fred?

Yes, it does. I had difficulty forming a response to this.

[NimbusBirdMgp]

What I've thought of things years ago ...

 

I got to the point in which I thought God might be doing these small miracles. But it bothered me that such a God isn't doing more about a lot more of the problems we all would like to have. It did get me upset that if this is really God. He's playing favoritism and not doing enough to be really as worthy of my respect. Like teasing and then being or becoming a coward. And then to hear that other problems come from some Devil. When this isn't any better than descibing the Devil. I got to where if this was God, I don't want a part of an evil, wicked God, who teases and cowards away from other things needed to bring us to a complete situation and being satisfied for a lot of us in this world about such a God.

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

To answer your question TFT...I have no idea. They could be miracles or coincidence.

Is it important to know if something is a miracle or coincidence?

 

For those who believe in miracles - what's their purpose?

 

Does the christian god perform miracles as favors, to strengthen faith, to convice non-believers?

 

It seems like it would be important that miracles could be clearly identified unless the purpose is just to alter the natural course of things as a favor to the petitioner.

[Totallyatpeace]

Is it important to know if something is a miracle or coincidence?

 

For those who believe in miracles - what's their purpose?

 

Does the christian god perform miracles as favors, to strengthen faith, to convice non-believers? 

 

It seems like it would be important that miracles could be clearly identified unless the purpose is just to alter the natural course of things as a favor to the petitioner.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree. That's why I don't go around saying "It's a miracle!" unless there was absolutely no other possibility. *sigh* I really want to see one.

 

However, Fred was there when his miracles took place and I wouldn't doubt his word, because I was not there. I would have to *be* there to either agree it was a miracle or claim it was not. Right?

 

Tap

[Totallyatpeace]

For those who believe in miracles - what's their purpose?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

A testimonial of the power of the one who performs the miracle.

[dogmatically_challenged]

However, Fred was there when his miracles took place and I wouldn't doubt his word, because I was not there. I would have to *be* there to either agree it was a miracle or claim it was not. Right?

 

Tap

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Makes perfect sense to me.

 

But I think we have more evidence for aliens from outer space than we do for your gods.

 

How can we know if space aliens aren't pulling an SG1 on us by using advanced technologies? We can't know can we even if we did witness a "miracle".

 

hehe!

[Ouroboros]

I am sure my response would be the common Christian response: Who are the starving people pleading to? Are they pleading to man, or are they pleading to the Lord? God does also feed many of these starving people, quite obviously doing it through others though. You cannot forget the people that are constantly on the quest to feed these people, the amounts of food shipped overseas and even given out here to these people. It would seem simply like a "half full or half empty" argument.

Most of the people starving in Ethiopia are Christians.

 

I would assume that it was God's Will for this to happen. I am a sole believer in "everything happens for a reason." No, I am not someone who has had the most perfect of lives, my entire childhood I struggled with far more pain and suffering than I feel any child should go through. I eventually came to understanding of the significant purpose of it. Especially the significant purpose of my breaking point, the point to which I became suicidal and I was going to kill myself. God got me through that time, and since then I have convinced 2 people not to commit suicide...two people are alive because of the pain that I had to go through, to me that made it worth it.

It’s nice that people can be saved from suicide with religion. In my case it was the opposite. After our accident I thought of suicide many times, but didn’t go through with it since I loved my family so much that I couldn’t let them get the burden of a lost father. And this was while I was Christian. My reasoning was that my pain would go away, but not my family’s pain.

 

I realize I cannot fully understand the struggle your family has gone through with an experience like this, but I do understand that you have felt pain. I do believe there is some form of significant purpose for it all. Each and every person effects the rest of the world in some way, shape, or form...whether they believe it or not...

I’ve been struggling with the question of reason for this too, and my conclusion comes from the result of it, I became an agnostic. So if God had an intention, it was for me to lose my faith, even after I asked him to give me faith because it was faltering.

 

Why would this be cause for the Bible to need to be rewritten? Is it located somewheres within the Bible that one persons doubt can tarnish the faith of thousands? If there is, please let me know where it is located. I currently hold it true that one persons prayer can be just as powerful as a prayer by thousands.

My point is that reality contradicts what the Bible says. The Bible claims faith the size of a mustard seed is enough to move mountains, while experience shows the opposite. Jesus even claimed he couldn’t do miracles because of doubters, even when he must have had faith the size of a forest, and not only a little seed. Did Jesus doubt his own abilities, or was the doubt of other people strong enough to counteract his miracles? Maybe faith isn’t so strong after all.

 

What does IPU stand for? (Sorry if this is an uneducated question.)

It’s an apostate joke, IPU stands for the Invisible Pink Unicorn.

 

Wow people post quickly on this forum, lol. I have read all of your posts, even if I didn't reply to each of them individually. They seem to simply hold that coincidence is the simple factor in these situations. The largest thing that would lead me away from coincidence, with at least the shooting star and the first gas stories, would be the moment in time that they occured. If it had been 1 shooting star at a random time (without lyrics that could have been vaguely applied) then I would surely have thought of it as more coincidence, but it was the fact that all 3 occured at the same moment together during those specific lyrics at that specific time. It just awed everyone else, and myself.

If the gas gauge had gone up 5 minutes after my prayer, I am sure I would still feel it as God's doing, but it wouldn't have had such an impact on me as it changing at the exact moment. I do not know of any occurences of my gas gauge sticking or anything of the sorts, the only time I see it really move is when I am going up and down hills and the slope that I am on. (Which is why I specified that I was driving on a flat road.)

I’ve seen several shooting stars both simultaneous and sequential, and it was in situations when my philosophical ponderings were in process, and I don’t take it as a sign for the correctness of my thoughts at that moment.

 

Say you see a car with the number 666 as a part of the license plate. You will most likely react and think more about it just because it triggers some ideas in you. But if you see a license plate with the number 457, you won’t even bother to see a connection to any concurrent events. It’s all in your ability to see patterns and correlations where none exists. Same thing with 9/11, it is the same numbers as 911 and in roman numbers its IX-XI, which is a strange coincident, looks like two buildings…

 

We see patterns, and we do juxtapositions all the time, that’s natural, and it doesn’t prove anything. If we want to see a connection between and event and a supernatural world, we will, and if we don’t want to see the connection then we don’t.

 

Seriously, I’ve heard people testifying they got healed from flu. It surprised them it took only 4 days instead 7, which are totally moot arguments, since it depends on vitamins, rests and many other parameters then a miracle.

 

I had a Jaguar that all of a sudden (randomly) acted weird with the gas gauge. Heat, angle and electrical problems can cause these things. It could have been that the sensor or the cable was loose in the car, who can really know…

 

(edit)

 

And why did the gauge go up 5 minutes after you prayed, and not the same instant? Did God have to think it over? Maybe the outcome of it was so complex that he had to do a difficult calculation before he decided to change the gas amount?

 

The tricky part here is that if God gave you more gas, where did he get it from? If he created it, it means he is putting the balance of the universe out of wack. 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and the weight and gravity pull etc, is all affected, if he keeps that up, we will soon either spin out of the solar system or be sucked into the sun...

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

However, Fred was there when his miracles took place and I wouldn't doubt his word, because I was not there. I would have to *be* there to either agree it was a miracle or claim it was not. Right?

 

No, I disagree. I think there has to be proof before I'll believe a claim of a miracle.

 

Only one of Fred's claims could be considered a verifiable miracle, IMHO. That's his claim that his god added gasoline to his car twice. That should be something that can be reproduced and scientifically verified. The preexisting amount of gas could be measured precisely before and after Fred's prayer. If the amount of gas increases after the prayer I'd be impressed.

 

The ankle and shooting star incidents really can't be confirmed one way or the other - I know of no way to verify that new meteorites were added to the sky at the time of the song, or to know for sure that a minor fall should have caused injury that it didn't.

 

Anyway, I think it's reasonable to be suspect of miracle claims without reliable and unbiased proof, especially when the event is within the realm of natural causes.

[Ouroboros]

What I've thought of things years ago ...

 

I got to the point in which I thought God might be doing these small miracles.  But it bothered me that such a God isn't doing more about a lot more of the problems we all would like to have.  It did get me upset that if this is really God.  He's playing favoritism and not doing enough to be really as worthy of my respect.  Like teasing and then being or becoming a coward.  And then to hear that other problems come from some Devil.  When this isn't any better than descibing the Devil.  I got to where if this was God, I don't want a part of an evil, wicked God, who teases and cowards away from other things needed to bring us to a complete situation and being satisfied for a lot of us in this world about such a God.

Amen to that. Preach it mister!

 

God that plays favoritism on small miracles, but then larger problems exists and could be solved by God and be more evidentiary of an omni-benevolent God. "Please God; show your power where it really helps!"

 

It's a bit like a long time ago, with some friends, we borrowed this video with this lady that had stigmata, and she had a session for the Church showing it and talking about it. You could see the blood etc, coming out.

 

Now, this was one of the times I got really skeptical. Why would God show his miracle powers this way, in such an incredible way, and yet couldn't maybe replace the blood in a kid that have leukemia?

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

Without skepticism as the default position you'd be required to accept the possibility of all miracle claims until they were proven otherwise. In other words, you'd have to say that it's possible that the laws of nature are constantly being overruled because the world is full of unproven miracle claims...

 

Proof That God is Present in Hindu Deities

 

 

On 21 September 1995, the whole World witnesses the Hindu milk miracle in which Hindu deities, known as idols to the non-Hindus, were drinking milk offered to them.  Never before in the history of mankind such a miracle occurred on such a global scale.

 

The Milk Miracle was reported Worldwide, from: Edmonton, Canada, San Francisco, USA, Los Angeles, USA, Trinidad, Guyana, Toronto, Canada, New York, USA, Italy, United Kingdom, Germany, Denmark, Dubai, UAE, India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Hong Kong, Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, Fiji, Australia, New Zealand, Mauritius, Kenya, and many other countries.

 

The miracle took place in thousands of Hindu temples and was witnessed by millions of Hindus and many non-Hindus.

 

Many of the Media reporters (mostly Christians) held their milk filled spoons to the Hindu deities and watched with total surprise and excitement, the milk being drunk by the idols.

 

Scientifically it’s impossible for a statue made of stone or metal to absorb even one drop of milk. The Hindu deities made of stone and metal, and some of them smaller than the hand. Drank many gallons of milk within a few hours, absorbing the milk instantly on contact.

 

The non-Hindus and scientists have tried to explain what happened on September 21, 1995 in terms of science. Some have repeatedly said that this so-called "Milk Miracle" was caused by something as simple as capillary action.

 

If the milk miracle was attributed to capillary action, then why is it that the deities never drank a single drop of milk before 21 September 1995 and after? If you offer a Hindu dieties milk today, it will not absorb even a single molecule. Please explain this first and then doubt later. Where is the capillary action gone today?

 

The Hindu milk miracle conclusively proves that Hindus worship God, who is present in the deities. It was God who was drinking the milk and not the stone or metal. The miracle also proves that God does take a form, which is totally rejected by other religions.

 

Read eyewitness accounts of many who witnessed the miracle and more at: http://www.milkmiracle.com/

[Ouroboros]

I agree. That's why I don't go around saying "It's a miracle!" unless there was absolutely no other possibility. *sigh* I really want to see one.

 

However, Fred was there when his miracles took place and I wouldn't doubt his word, because I was not there. I would have to *be* there to either agree it was a miracle or claim it was not. Right?

 

Tap

You're right. Miracles are only evidence for the person that actually experience them. It's the awe of the transcendent and sublime that we feel, and miracles strengthens that, but can not be used to convince someone else. The only way is that this "someone else" have to experience a miracle that is undeniable to him.

[Ouroboros]

Makes perfect sense to me.

 

But I think we have more evidence for aliens from outer space than we do for your gods.

 

How can we know if space aliens aren't pulling an SG1 on us by using advanced technologies? We can't know can we even if we did witness a "miracle".

 

hehe!

 

Hi DC, haven't seen you in a while! Posting in other threads?

 

Of course aliens exists, I'm a legal alien... from Sweden that is