I Do Not Want To "de-convert" All Xtians

[Snakefoot]

I truly pity many (but by no means all) xtians. Those I pity are the elderly, the poor, and the intellectually challenged whose lives would be truly miserable without the hope that their beliefs bring them.

 

Without religion/god/Jebus, these people would be the most miserable among us, completely without any prospect/hope of improving their lots in life. So what if they are delusional? If the delusion brings them some measure of happiness or contentment, who am I to dissuade them? Were I to succeed in "de-converting" them, I would be doing them far more harm than good.

 

This is not to excuse the "crusaders" that label me et al as human abberrations to be shunned and reviled; those bastards should get what they deserve. But I do have pity for the "innocents" of xtianity, and the best way I can help them is to leave them alone in their delusions.

 

Am I alone in this line of thinking?

[gradstu09]

I have a hard time with this. If believing in some Jesus-woo is going to make someone's life a little better, or if someone chooses to continue practicing for the sense of community or ritual, then yeah, fine. The problem is that the warm fuzzies of Jesus-woo only rarely come without the baggage of horrible assumptions attached. It is the rare person who doesn't get a load of self-loathing dumped on them when they become a believer, not to mention an expectation that they start judging others. That's just the way the system is set-up. If religion could somehow be defanged and made into a vehicle for improving self-esteem via some harmless self-delusion, then I'd be all for it. Some very liberal christian and quasi-christian sects seem determined to do this and I'd be happy if the Baptists lost to the UU's in the end.

[Deva]

Without religion/god/Jebus, these people would be the most miserable among us, completely without any prospect/hope of improving their lots in life. So what if they are delusional? If the delusion brings them some measure of happiness or contentment, who am I to dissuade them? Were I to succeed in "de-converting" them, I would be doing them far more harm than good.

 

This is not to excuse the "crusaders" that label me et al as human abberrations to be shunned and reviled; those bastards should get what they deserve. But I do have pity for the "innocents" of xtianity, and the best way I can help them is to leave them alone in their delusions.

 

Am I alone in this line of thinking?

 

No you are not alone, I agree with you mostly except I really don't view such people with "pity." I figure it works for them. I am not going to change their minds. I see it as a fact that some people do derive comfort from their religious delusions. That is the main reason they cling to their religion. If they are in a miserable condition and from their perspective their religion helps them, who am I to take that away? To me it may seem ridiculous but my perception is that life is basically hard. Leave them alone, its not my business.

 

Someone trying to impose their beliefs on me and becoming hurtful, disrespectful and abusive is another matter entirely. They get "both barrells".

[elana]

I have to agree with Snakefoot. I have relatives who are mentally challenged and their beliefs in Jesus & the promise of a heavenly afterlife give them happiness and hope that I think would be ultimately cruel to take away from them.

 

elana

[white_raven23]

De-conversion is a personal choice. In my Real Life, I have little interest in dispelling delusion in other people.

 

That being said.

 

When christians come HERE, to tell me how I'm WRONG and the BIBLE is all anyone needs to KNOW.... I will gleefully shred them a new cyber-asshole until they go away bawling cyber-tears and leaking cyber-blood.

 

The reason? Real life does not afford much opportunity for non-believers to have their own gathering places. I can't shop at "our" stores, I can't eat at "our" restaurants...I must share Real Life with everyone around me (unless I feel like going to jail by thinning the herd...which I don't). But by the same token, THEY must share most public places with the likes of ME as well.

 

But online? Online you deliberately choose where you go, and what you say. Online...the perpetuation of ignorant crap doesn't have to be tolerated. I don't go on ChristianForums and tell them they are a load of deluded fools (even though I do believe that). So I expect the same courtesy that the Net'-vangelicals will leave us be...but they don't seem to have either the inclination, or the ability to leave well enough alone.

 

So.

 

I'll eat them.

 

With Taco Sauce.

[florduh]

I've seen too many people whose life is in the shitter and their faith keeps them going. Sometimes it's all they have.

 

My father pissed me off for many years trying to get me back to the flock, but I never argued against his beliefs because he needed them. With a painful, miserable existence the last few years of his life, he was able to see each visit to the hospital as a chance to witness. His pain was somewhat relieved with the "knowledge" his reward was just around the corner. Who could want to take away that from a dying man?

 

That's just one example. Their beliefs are unfounded but as a coping mechanism, it works for some.

 

- Chris

[Skiergirl24]

I truly pity many (but by no means all) xtians. Those I pity are the elderly, the poor, and the intellectually challenged whose lives would be truly miserable without the hope that their beliefs bring them.

 

Without religion/god/Jebus, these people would be the most miserable among us, completely without any prospect/hope of improving their lots in life. So what if they are delusional? If the delusion brings them some measure of happiness or contentment, who am I to dissuade them? Were I to succeed in "de-converting" them, I would be doing them far more harm than good.

 

This is not to excuse the "crusaders" that label me et al as human abberrations to be shunned and reviled; those bastards should get what they deserve. But I do have pity for the "innocents" of xtianity, and the best way I can help them is to leave them alone in their delusions.

 

Am I alone in this line of thinking?

 

I hear you...I feel much the same way. The last thing I would ever want to do would be to cause someone pain...and I know many people cling to religion desperately as their only hope...

[ShackledNoMore]

I see your point, but I should still expect that we'd have a much more emotionally healthy populace and less misery and despair if people in general did not subscribe to made up fables. The self-loathing at the core of xianity does not help matters at all. As long as people are going to delude themselves, perhaps it would have been better if it was some universalist system with some benevolent god, dropping the one bloodthirsty tyrant of the old testament who's sending the bulk of his creation to an agonizing eternity in hell that xians must reconcile as the god of love. A god of tolerance, of peace, treating everyone well, might give the destitute and the non thinking more hope without all the ills of the jealous, demanding god, though I still don't think such a god would really have anything on Reason when it comes to people being generally well adjusted. Some of the non-Abrahamic religions which offer some sort of reward for a good life without making a person really screwed (especially not eternally screwed) otherwise seem slightly more palatable to me and seem like they should offer more comfort to the poor, the intellectually challenged, the destitute, and the miserable than a religion like xianity.

[whateverlolawants]

I have to agree with Snakefoot. I have relatives who are mentally challenged and their beliefs in Jesus & the promise of a heavenly afterlife give them happiness and hope that I think would be ultimately cruel to take away from them.

 

elana

 

I agree. I think there's a difference between those who simply see the good parts of Christianity and benefit from them (such as the mentally handicapped- most of them don't seem to experience the self-loathing that Xianity induces in a lot of folks- they're just happy that God/Jesus loves them, they get to go to heaven, etc.), than those who are both uplifted and hurt by Xianity.

 

It's a blurry line in a lot of cases, though. I think about my own mom- she's got a fine mind and is a liberal Xian. She's a very good person with progressive ideals and a good understanding/willingness to understand those unlike her. She credits her Xian beliefs with helping her endure several hard events, including two battles with cancer. At the same time, I think there's a lot of inconsistencies within her beliefs, and she excuses the church and Xianity too much. Still, I won't actively try to deconstruct her entire belief system- it means a lot to her, and above all else, I'd hate to make my mom's life worse. However, if we're discussing something specific, I might gently prod her thinking in a different direction. She's free to do that with me too, of course.

 

I bring her up b/c while she's not mentally handicapped, destitute, or elderly, her faith brings her a lot of comfort, and she doesn't use it against others. I think if she gradually fell away from it, it could be good for her, but her faith isn't doing anything terrible to her or others in the meantime, so why challenge it strongly? Besides, I worry she would see a challenge as a personal attack, something I'd never do.

 

Now I've gone off on a tangent... sorry!

[Vigile]

I'm no advocate of anti evangelization or a reverse form of proselizing, but I do not see how xianity can provide people with more comfort than the truth unless they are in utter denial about what xianity ultimately means. Xianity teaches them that they are dirty, rotten and disgusting and that they are deserving of nothing better than eternal torture save that god had pity on them if they crawl before him like a worm.

 

How is that healthy and comforting?

 

If, however, they live in denial of how utterly stupid and disgusting this set of beliefs is, then they would likely be the types of people that would live in denial about the supposed meaninglessness of reality as well. We are not talking about deep thinkers here.

 

IOW, arguing that some need xianity as a crutch is bullshit. That does not mean that it is our job to go around kicking out the crutches.

[whateverlolawants]

I'm no advocate of anti evangelization or a reverse form of proselizing, but I do not see how xianity can provide people with more comfort than the truth unless they are in utter denial about what xianity ultimately means. Xianity teaches them that they are dirty, rotten and disgusting and that they are deserving of nothing better than eternal torture save that god had pity on them if they crawl before him like a worm.

 

How is that healthy and comforting?

 

If, however, they live in denial of how utterly stupid and disgusting this set of beliefs is, then they would likely be the types of people that would live in denial about the supposed meaninglessness of reality as well. We are not talking about deep thinkers here.

 

IOW, arguing that some need xianity as a crutch is bullshit. That does not mean that it is our job to go around kicking out the crutches.

 

I don't agree that "we are not talking about deep thinkers here." I think we're talking about people who have compartmentalized; they might be deep thinkers, but they're not applying it to their religious beliefs, for whatever reason. They haven't examined their religion like they would something else- they've avoided doing so, or they've used different standards. Are you an ex-Christian? Would you say you weren't a deep thinker until you left that religion? I definitely wouldn't say that about myself. Some exes might, others wouldn't. I can think of at least three Christians I know who are indeed "deep thinkers"- my mom being one of them- but seem to have compartmentalized their religion away from their usual habit of critical examination. These people certainly exist.

 

I absolutely agree that it's not our job to kick out the crutches, nor do I think people need Xianity- not hardly! I also agree that many of these folks are in denial about the true nature of Xianity- I would probably include my mom in that group. However, I am very wary of characterizing those you claim to be in denial as not being deep thinkers.

[Guest eejay]

I have strong emotions regarding this topic. I do pity x-tians wo are deluded (not all of them), but like most of you it is not my responsibility to try to take that away from them. What gives me that sense of pity, is mainly for those who are elderly and on a fixed income. For example, the last few years my parents were alive, they lived in elderly housing. Long story about their issue that I don't want to get into right now. But they had some neighbors, who had an extremely limited income, and they would send money to those televangelists, while cutting back on what food they could buy. If you had any idea how badly I wanted to say something, but didn't, because I knew it wouldn't do any good anyway. I do take pity on those kinds of x-tians, who truly believe they are doing something good to help others. For some reason they don't seem to realize they are just making the televangelist richer. I would love to deconvert those kind of people, but by that time in their lives, they would never accept it, and wouldn't really accomplish anything. I just hate to see them taken advantage of by those pricks who solicit their money 'for gawd'. With that said, I have a loathing and despise for x-tianity. I still don't think it would be a great idea to try to deconvert every x-tian I run into. Yeah, maybe I'd like to, but while they're in their delusion they'd never allow 'satan' to take then down. And that's how they'd defensively look at any attempt to tell them the un-reaity of their beliefs. Since their beliefs are personal, it is not my right to try to change them anyway. But I don't want them shoving their bullshit in my face or expecting me to live by their rules.

[Grandpa Harley]

Grandpa' view from the cheap seats...

 

Now, I don't give a good bugger what they believe... if it stops them killing someone, becoming a rapist, shooting up, taking one more drink etc, then wonderful... they can believe in the hare in the moon, that Jesus is their bestest buddy or that Allah is the one true god and more power to their faith.

 

*pauses to spit tobacco juice*

 

HOWEVER...

 

Telling stories to kids... NO

 

Telling me how to live my life... NO

 

Coming here to tell us we're all sinners and hell bound if we don't kiss the ass of their deity of choice... NO

 

Want to tell me who I can and cannot fall in love with... NO

 

FOAD!

 

I'll then take a scalpel to their living brain, and never let them escape their own, small minded nonsense while they're crapping on my carpet where I can see it or sell it. The will not forget their comments on the role of women, or their views on the 'evils' of homosexuality, no matter how 'reasonable' they later try to pretend to be. They want to sell snake oil, they can do it else where, and while they try to sell it on MY turf, they can put up with me telling them WHO the fucking evil one is... they can then take it away from normal, decent people people, and children...

 

I won't go out of my way to hurt one, but if they come into my front room, my desk at work, my land, I shall rip them a new one, then spit up it...

 

Fair?

[Vigile]

Are you an ex-Christian?

 

That I am.

 

Would you say you weren't a deep thinker until you left that religion?

 

I would say that I gave it a hell of a lot more thought than the pew warmers sitting next to me. From my 3+ years experience on this board, I'd say that other exers fit into that same category of those who thought about it.

 

Seriously, if you sit in church every Sunday and you don't think about the very basics of your faith, such as the concept that you were born a filthy rotten little bugger that must crawl before the lord for some pittance of forgiveness, then you are just not a deep thinker.

 

I'm not arguing that all current xians are not deep thinkers. I'm arguing that those who don't think about the connotations of their belief are not deep thinkers. Those that fall in the other category could/would probably find a great deal of relief to find out it's not true. Those in the former category of "not deep thinkers" probably wouldn't be devistated to lose their crutch since they just don't think about the world on a very deep level.

 

IOW, I'm oversimplifying for the sake of argument and saying that there are two groups to consider here; the first group of deep thinking xians, would be better off to know that they are not in fact dirty rotten worms whose very existance and future safety depends on crawling before a despot; and a second group who just doesn't give it that much thought, therefore I doubt they give much of anything that much thought and as such aren't the type of people who get devistated by ideas.

 

Once again, I don't advocate deprograming anyone.

 

I also believe that most exers here would say that they are better off and healthier psychologically now that they have deconverted; even if they might not have thought so in their early stages of deconversion.

[Taphophilia]

I would agree. However, it is not so much the mentally challenged who need Christianity as much as it is the emotionally challenged. Christianity would fall apart if it didn't feed off of peoples insecurities. To attempt to even kick out the crutch of an emotional cripple is cruel. Though it's entirely different, if they are swinging their crutch at you and trying to hit you over the head with it.

[Neon Genesis]

I won't go out of my way to hurt one, but if they come into my front room, my desk at work, my land, I shall rip them a new one, then spit up it...

 

Fair?

I have to agree with this. I don't go around forcing how I think other people should live their lives on them, so I don't see why xtians can't show a little courtesy and do the same. This is why when I debate with xtians, I try to focus more on encouraging critical thinking skills and getting rid of that arrogant attitude that only they are right more so than focusing on deconverting their beliefs. I honestly don't care what other people believe or not believe, but I don't appreciate it when xtians try to enforce their beliefs on me. I'm a grown adult and can live my own life without the moral police holding my hand every time I cross the street. Maybe xtians need the moral police to hold their hands when they cross the street, and I don't care if they think they do, but I should have the right to cross the street on my own, using my own common sense if I want.

[Skankboy]

IF I didn't live in a Democracy that relies on a well-educated voting base to ensure viability, I might agree. IF I didn't live in country that seems to have a major stick up its ass about Christianity, I might agree. IF the groups pushing their religious views didn't site statistics about how we are a christian nation, I might agree.

 

But... I don't so I can't.

 

Is it more cruel to do an intervention on a drug addict if their addiction makes them appear happier than it is to leave them be?

[DarthOkkata]

I'm inclined to agree with Skankboy on this one. Christianity is a problem because it acts like a virus. They're the ones at the driver's wheel in the US, and it sucks ass.

 

Christians become a problem when they start expecting 'the rapture' to sweep in and make all our current problems irrelevant. Things like, global warming, litter, industrial waste.

 

As such, they become no earthly good, and spend their time playing moral police on trivial issues, while ignoring larger problems. You'd barely know there was a war going on at all. Even watching the news most of the time gives little indication.

 

They are also dangerous to other people. Their delusions can be used to manipulate them into doing terrible things. What do you think happed to all those nice Germans in the Nazi party? It seems prudent to remind that the swastica is an ancient Christian symbol, that's just not used anymore.

 

They are selfish and materialistic. Out of sight, out of mind rules their brains. If the area around them is secure and prosperous, then the world is fine. That's generalizing a bit. I'm of a mind God doesn't really motivate most missionaries. Empathy is not a Christian monopoly.

 

They are brainwashed and delusional. They react to certain words with anger and hatred that is easily converted into violence in far too many. It's been conditioned into them, but is surrounded by lots of love talk that sounds nice and has no real meaning. Abortion is a good example of this behavior.

 

They think the way their organization tells them to think. Remember, having an impure thought is a sin too. While independent in social life, they act as one politically, and seek to have their own in power, barring all others from it.

 

Just try and run as an Atheist, Muslim, Hindu, Jew, or anything that doesn't think God has a strapping lad by the name of Jesus, who may also be him.

 

It's gotten to the point I'd almost be relieved if we got invaded by Canada. I can learn to like hockey. Jesus, not so much.

 

Let those kids put their faith into a possible cure for what might kill them. Tell them dying is like going to sleep. No need to add an imaginary fantasy Disneyland in the sky. It's like telling them you're going to take them to Florida and Disneyworld, and then kicking them down a slide with a hose running water down it in a rat costume. Jesus can be just as cruel to them, turn on your television on a Sunday morning and watch a few 'faith healings' if you don't believe me.

 

It's really silly for anyone to try and claim that these people aren't real 'christians' either. They are the real Christians. They've got more faith than you do, and that's exactly what's wrong with them.

 

It's not Satan's manipulations, it's not just plain old nutjobs, nor is it something in the water.

 

It's people who drank just a bit too much of the Holy Spirit, and are now in a permanent state of belligerent, angry, drunk person in an argument with police about how much he's had.

 

Those -are- the 'real' Christians.

 

Fuck Jesus, he's ruined my democratic secularist nation, and turned it into a crusade running empire of zombified, brainwashed, ignorant, easily distracted, puppets.

 

As far as I'm concerned, he doesn't need anymore friends.