Skiergirl24 Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 As most of you know, I have a blog about my deconversion. I began questioning while watching my mother suffer from Cancer. Here is a comment about a post I wrote about suffering: Your problem is that you think like a human being thinks and therefore you are limited by your perspective. Do you think that a man who throws himself on a hand grenade to save his friends thinks he'll somehow live? If not, why does he do it? Do you think that when grandma makes an embroidery she strives to make the reverse side look as good as the front? If not, then why not? The answer lies in the belief that God has a grand design for the universe, one that we cannot see and one that he encourages us, as men, to assist him with making. We are flawed. We kill and hurt others contrary to God's will. We are weak mortal flesh, we get sick, we get hurt, we die. These things interfere with the grand design but because the end product, which we can neither see not comprehend is so vast and worthwhile that God strives to direct our weak and flawed bodies and wills to help him complete it. In the end, the comparison, though weak, is to grandma's embroidery. On the reverse side it looks like crap, but on the face it could be beautiful. If we magnify that so far beyond what we can fathom as beautiful, then perhaps the pain and death we suffer contributes to what one day will be something so awesomely beautiful and something that we are part of. We suffer pain because we have the opportunity to experience happiness and joy. There can be no one without the other. If we had no pain, no challenge, no risk...what would life be worth? It would be worth nothing. We would be like the Greek Gods...bored, listless and wasted. Nothing could hurt them, they felt no pain, they were bored, silly and stupid. A great psychologist once said, "Everybody hurts. Everybody." And then he went on to say "We can demonstrate the opportunity for joy despite the pain. If there must be an absence of pain for joy to exist, the condition of the average person is hopeless. When an individual becomes fixated on their pain, all other awareness diminishes. Their capacity to enjoy anything other than the pain is limited. Sometimes all we need to do it increase the scope of their vision. We can also offer encouragement and strategies for experiencing joy. Life is pain, pain in normal. We must find joy despite our pain and that is the triumph of the human spirit." And here is my response: Your argument is nothing new to me. However, I disagree with you. Your statements are what YOU have come up with in YOUR mind to hold onto your belief that God exists. I once felt as you do and enjoyed the musings of Khalil Gibran about joy and sorrow. They are flowery, and on the surface, quite moving. But my logic is now able to overcome being temporarily sated with insufficient reasoning and cliches. They are moot points to me now. You are right, I am thinking like a human. Why would a God who LOVES mankind, create us in such a way that we would be so confused? Why wouldn't a loving a God give us the clear answers? If we need to prove our faith to God then God has severe self-esteem issues and is not Perfect! God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. So why did God create the Earth? Why did he create us? More on pain and suffering: God could have created us in a way so that all we were able to feel was joy and pleasure and we would be able to FULLY experience the extreme ecstasy of joy without having to suffer. God did not do that though, did he? Also, our goal here on the earth is to live according to God's laws so that we may gain entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven (according to the Bible). God could simply skip this whole Earth business and we could all be in heaven with him.... but he doesn't do that. He intentionally places us here on Earth to make us suffer and test our faith. That is not a perfect God. That is an evil tyrant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonolithTMA Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 Hmm... if pain is necessary to feel joy, then heaven is a waste of time. Humans would be lazy, bored and worthless up there as the respondant pointed out. Also, christians frequently argue that there was no pain and suffering in the garden. So did god create people to be "joyless"? So the idea that pain is necessary negates the idea that god would have created life painfree (ie Eden) and negates the idea that Heaven will be enjoyable. Awesome point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 A great psychologist once said, "Everybody hurts. Everybody." And then he went on to say "We can demonstrate the opportunity for joy despite the pain. If there must be an absence of pain for joy to exist, the condition of the average person is hopeless. When an individual becomes fixated on their pain, all other awareness diminishes. Their capacity to enjoy anything other than the pain is limited. Sometimes all we need to do it increase the scope of their vision. We can also offer encouragement and strategies for experiencing joy. Life is pain, pain in normal. We must find joy despite our pain and that is the triumph of the human spirit." As best I could find the person in question is from this page (about half way down the page). It would be A PHILOSOPHY OF SPEAKING by Mark Sanborn, CSP, CPAE (a Certified Public Speaker who pulls in something like 20 large to talk to people...not really a "great psychologist" but maybe my minute or two on Google isn't enough to uncover all his creds although I'd sure list them after my name if I had them). mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Marty Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 I love the "You're problem is you're thinking like a human" line. Um, we ALL think like humans, xtians included. Some think a little more than others, but it's all still human thought! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonolithTMA Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 I like thinking like a parsnip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 Hmm... if pain is necessary to feel joy, then heaven is a waste of time. So very true. And it goes further, Hell must be the most joyous place in existence. Ultimate pain must result in ultimate joy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 So very true. And it goes further, Hell must be the most joyous place in existence. I wouldn't say that but I would say that the only ones that could enjoy heaven to its fullest would be those that have gone to hell. Alas they aren't allowed out again. So heaven can never be truly enjoyed to the utmost. Ultimate pain must result in ultimate joy. How very S&M of you. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 So very true. And it goes further, Hell must be the most joyous place in existence. I wouldn't say that but I would say that the only ones that could enjoy heaven to its fullest would be those that have gone to hell. Alas they aren't allowed out again. So heaven can never be truly enjoyed to the utmost. True. And if the ones in Hell can't get to Heaven to fulfill their joy, and the ones in Heaven can't truly know joy because they don't know pains of Hell, then there is an extreme frustration building up. Maybe this is God's next mistake, just like all the other stories in the Bible? And another revolution arise from all souls in Heaven and Hell, together we topple God off of his fake throne? Ultimate pain must result in ultimate joy. How very S&M of you. Well, I got good education by reading the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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