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Goodbye Jesus

Do You Debate Christians?


Emme

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No, I don't debate them. However, when two of my friendly acquaintances were talking about how Christians are being persecuted because people think it is uncool to be Christian, I did argue that point! They wouldn't give up their idea of being looked down on, but at least they acknowledged that being the majority group, they couldn't complain.

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Oh, and as far as debating them in their own forums, no. I will sometimes visit those forums if I'm in the mood to submit something to fundies say the darnest...

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Many scholarly Christians have managed to present alternative textually critical interpretations of the Bible that agree with and even support Christianity's claims. These are sometimes very difficult to argue with--to some extent because it's a matter of interpretation, but also because they find serious textual evidence.

 

Ultimately, it's pointless to argue theology with Christians, because there's no common ground. At the foundation of Christianity is faith - not logic or intellectual proofs. There is one single question from which all other theological questions and arguments spring, and it's a question that can't be answered with proof.

 

The single most important question in all of Christianity is: Do we need redemption because of the sins committed by Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden?

 

If you believe the answer is "yes," then let the (never ending) debating begin: How much redemption? What kind of redemption? Who is the redeemer? Who gets redeemed? Who doesn't? What happens to the unredeemed? And on, and on, and on.

 

If you believe the answer is "no," then there is nothing to debate. Without original sin, there is nothing separating Man from God except ignorance, and therefore guilt is a matter of choice - not something we're born with. If there is no need for guilt, there is no need for redemption. Without the need for redemption, sacrifice is meaningless, and if sacrifice is meaningless, then Jesus of Nazareth, if he existed, and if he was crucified, was no different from all of the other poor schmucks crucified by the Romans. If that's the case, then the entire existence of the church is irrelevant, as far as eternity is concerned.

 

No Christian - at least no fundamentalist Christian - is going to agree that original sin, Adam and Eve, and the Garden of Eden are simply myths or allegories. They can't be, or Christianity is irrelevant. That's why debating theology with Christians is a waste of time.

 

 

Rob

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Rob, I don't think it's just the fundamentalists who have a vested interest in original sin and the depravity of humanity so that the death of Jesus has meaning. When I finally realized that the entire edifice of the religion existed to give meaning to the death of a man, whose very existence is dubious, well, it seemed preposterous totally out of proportion. For example, lots of other people have died and perhaps we want to give meaning to their lives, too. Do we have to start a religion to make this happen??? I would hope not.

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The single most important question in all of Christianity is: Do we need redemption because of the sins committed by Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden?

 

Not in all of Christianity. The Eastern Orthodox tradition rejects that interpretation. One only needs redemption for one's own sins; sins are not in some way inherited. Many Western traditions have likewise rejected the Augustinian doctrine of Original Sin.

 

No Christian - at least no fundamentalist Christian - is going to agree that original sin, Adam and Eve, and the Garden of Eden are simply myths or allegories. They can't be, or Christianity is irrelevant. That's why debating theology with Christians is a waste of time.

 

No fundamentalist, perhaps. But we should not treat fundamentalists as being anything like the majority of Christians, either historically or currently. Their doctrines are relatively new, and don't really stand up to the weight of the Christian tradition as viewed through the light of history. There are many, many Christians who reject Fundamentalism in favor of more robust forms of Christianity that have stood the test of time, from various branches of Catholicism to Reformed Presbyterianism.

 

To be sure, there is an element of faith involved in Christianity. That does not mean that all of Christianity's doctrines and teachings stand on faith alone. Christians consistently make appeals to personal experience, Christian psychologies and anthropologies, and make other evidential claims in support of their religion. These can be debated and discussed without necessarily appealing to faith alone. Moreover, a discussion about whether Christian doctrines--or even a particular Christian's doctrines--are logically self-consistent provides a way to disconfirm Christianity regardless of faith claims; even faith cannot make A unequal to A. Consequently, discussions with Christians that involve discussions about the consistency of Christianity, both with regards to itself and to the external world, can be very fruitful for both parties.

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I like the drama in debating with Christians on-line. I was going to one predominantly Christian site and one of it's main Christian members said (knowing I was an ex-Christian) that I was "worse than an athiest". I figured the reason he thought that was that I am more of a threat to believers because I've been where they were and have the potential to do more damage when it comes to the faith of other members.

 

Now I go to another site, which discusses religion in general, so you get all sorts including Muslims and Jews.

 

Many Christians claim that Ex-Christians were looking for a way to get out of Christianity so that's why they became ex-Christians. Man that really irks me. It was definitely not the case for me. My main reason for visiting other sites apart from this one was in the hope some Christian might convince me that I was wrong in rejecting Christianity. However the more I debate with Christians the more I realise I was right to reject Christianity. To me it becomes more and more inane by the day.

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I go out of my way to avoid them, both in real life and on the internet.

 

I was up in Portland a week ago. I went to meet some friends somwhere, and when I got there they were engaged in a street debate with some fundie witnessers. My friends were blissfully ignorant of fundie beliefs; one grew up in a typical not-really-religious quasi-Catholic California liberal home, and the other grew up in a Greek home but her parents were disdainful atheists who despised the Greek church. I remember her being shocked when I finally explained what fundieism is all about and how it operates. Anyways, they were talking to these guys out of genuine, innocent curiosity, but were then appalled that they got harangued for it. I myself saw what was going on and walked clear to the other side of the park until the fundies were gone. They even called me on my cell phone and said "why are you over there? Come over here!" I refused to do so until they made a clean break from the fundies.

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