Christians, are miracles for today? Yes or No

[Guest SerenityNow]

Have any of you ever gathered together, walked into a ward of terminally ill or severly handicapped children and with no fear said outloud....."You ARE HEALED in Jesus name!" If not, why not?

 

If not because "miracles are not for today" how do we know that you understand the scriptures as correct and other christians don't?

[Vixentrox]

Yeah...it's never the doctor, the paramedic, the fireman, ect who gets the credit. It's always god who healed someone or saved someone...

[Ouroboros]

Most Christians don't walk into hospital wards and start healing because they know, even if they won't admit it, that miracles do not happen.  I've noticed that faith increases proportionally with the liklihood that the issue at hand can be solved via some form of human means.  In other words, they know that humans solve these issues, they pray to God for "help" and once the problem is solved they claim it a "miracle" or at least an "answered prayer". 

 

*Sorry, I shouldn't have answered this thread, it is not directed at me.  LOL!

That's an interesting way of putting it!

 

Faith increases in correlation with the amount of likelyhood the event will happen by natural causes. It's just frigging math!

 

So the mustard see will grow to a tree and move the mountain if there's enough nuclear bombs dropped on it!

[cerebralchristian]

Have any of you ever gathered together, walked into a ward of terminally ill or severly handicapped children and with no fear said outloud....."You ARE HEALED in Jesus name!"  If not, why not? 

 

If not because "miracles are not for today" how do we know that you understand the scriptures as correct and other christians don't?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I believe that miracles are indeed for today. Obviously, though, miracles do not occur in instant answer to every prayer-- if they did, then this would be a kind of natural law. They do not occur predictably, but they *do* occur. I have seen several instant visible healings, for example. (And I was stunned!)

 

It is also true, though, that I have prayed for many instant healings with usually no discernible result. Some Christians would point out that certain people seem to be gifted in the ability to pray for the sick with immediate results to follow. (I am not gifted in that way.) I tend to agree that those with this coveted gift tend to get "Shazam!" results more often than the rest of us! As for who gets this gift and why, I don't know.

 

But what I do know is that God, in my experience, is not a vending machine to be controlled by what happens to be requested. I cannot make a request/drop in a dollar and receive my miracle/my Dr. Pepper.

 

I hope this at least somewhat answers the question

 

 

CC

[cerebralchristian]

Thank you CC and Welcome!

 

May I ask a couple more questions though to delve even deeper? Jesus said that all it takes is mustard-seed like faith and that "nothing" would be impossible. Reading the NT, it appears that Jesus did not limit his disciples abilities, yet Paul teaches "gifts". Jesus says ALL who have mustard seed-like faith, whereas Paul says it's an individual gift? Isn't Paul's teaching, limiting and putting god in a box?

 

CC replies:

I don't see it that way. I think both concepts work in that Christians do have varying spiritual gifts but at the same time, every Christian ought to do what he/she understands God to be telling them to do, including possibly going into the the cancer ward at a hospital and praying for instant healing for the patients. Not that this would necessarily be God's instruction to someone. n

 

I think this (God's situational instruction) would supersede the absence or presence of spiritual gifts.

 

CC

[Asimov]

every Christian ought to do what he/she understands God to be telling them to do, including possibly going into the the cancer ward at a hospital and praying for instant healing for the patients.  Not that this would necessarily be God's instruction to someone. n

 

Why would God instruct anyone to do anything? Wouldn't that go against free will?

[cerebralchristian]

Why would God instruct anyone to do anything?  Wouldn't that go against free will?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hello Asimov:

 

No, because the person may choose to carry out that instruction or not. God instructs, and then the type of response-- if any-- is up to the person. I think that God regards human free will as inviolable.

 

CC

[Vixentrox]

Then choose to have the faith of at least a mustard seed and start preforming healings and mass producing fish and bread out of nothing to feed the hungry.

[cerebralchristian]

Then choose to have the faith of at least a mustard seed and start preforming healings and mass producing fish and bread out of nothing to feed the hungry.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hello Vixentrox,

 

If I believed the Lord asked me to do that specifically, I would do it. But I try to make sure I am carrying out his requests, not my own impulses. And, to be frank, it is sometimes hard to tell the difference For me, it requires much deep prayer.

 

I don't think there is much about the Chrisian life that is knee-jerk or cookie-cutter. It's not about just believing a set of tenets and imitating Christ whenever possible-- it's about an initial commitment followed by a deepening relationship. I think Christianity is about a *relationship* more than anything else.

 

Many of the posts I have seen in this forum presuppose the cookie-cutter Christianity. But that is not what I mean when I say "Christianity."

 

Thanks for your post!

 

CC

[Mythra]

CC: Jesus supposedly said that his followers will do greater works than he himself did. Can you name ONE?

[Vixentrox]

Hello Vixentrox,

 

If I believed the Lord asked me to do that specifically, I would do it.  But I try to make sure I am carrying out his requests, not my own impulses.  And, to be frank,  it is sometimes hard to tell the difference  For me, it requires much deep prayer. 

 

I don't think there is much about the Chrisian life that is knee-jerk or cookie-cutter.  It's not about just believing a set of tenets and imitating Christ whenever possible-- it's about an initial commitment followed by a deepening relationship.  I think Christianity is about a *relationship* more than anything else.

 

Many of the posts I have seen in this forum presuppose the cookie-cutter Christianity.  But that is not what I mean when I say "Christianity."

 

Thanks for your post!

 

CC

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So your saying that Jesus wouldn't WANT you to heal people or feed the starving? This isn't a reasonable request from your god? Wouldn't it be a wonderful way to spread the word of your god by doing these miracles that your SUPPOSED to be able to do? As Mythra said: "Jesus supposedly said that his followers will do greater works than he himself did. Can you name ONE?"

[Lizard]

I love the sidestepping..did Jesus not say:

 

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

 

 

Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

 

Not, "they might", or "if they have the gift"..but SHALL..

 

In 25 years, I've never seen an instant healing. I prayed for healing for both of my sons. They are not healed.

 

And the excuse that it is "god's will" for them not be just pisses me off more. God wants my son deaf?? He wants my son to be bipolar?? For what glory is that???

 

I'm tying to reign in some of my anger lately..at the bs that continues to be spouted..if it were true..both sons would have been healed when preacher layed hands on them.

 

There is a group who claims they are not for today. It was simply for the apostles to "spread the word" and when the bible was written, they were no longer needed..which brings me to..

 

Ok..we have docs that can do alot. But, what about the demon thing? Not that I think demons are inhabiting the bodies of people, but following the logic that it says in the bable that they do..then, if these things are not for today, how do ya get the demons out of people?

[Ouroboros]

I love the sidestepping..did Jesus not say:

 

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 

Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

 

Not, "they might", or "if they have the gift"..but SHALL..

 

In 25 years, I've never seen an instant healing.  I prayed for healing for both of my sons.  They are not healed.

 

And the excuse that it is "god's will" for them not be just pisses me off more.  God wants my son deaf??  He wants my son to be bipolar??  For what glory is that???

 

I'm tying to reign in some of my anger lately..at the bs that continues to be spouted..if it were true..both sons would have been healed when preacher layed hands on them.

 

There is a group who claims they are not for today.  It was simply for the apostles to "spread the word" and when the bible was written, they were no longer needed..which brings me to..

 

Ok..we have docs that can do alot.  But, what about the demon thing?  Not that I think demons are inhabiting the bodies of people, but following the logic that it says in the bable that they do..then, if these things are not for today, how do ya get the demons out of people?

Sorry to hear that about your kids.

 

What's really disturbing is that the Bible say these things, "ask and it shall be given", "two or three gathered...", etc. And the scriptures of miracles above.

 

But as soon someone try to follow these scriptures and it doesn't work, then someone has a bunchload of excuses. And those excuses are not Biblical!!! The Bible doesn't say "God only answers your prayers if it's his will".

 

So how can the Bible be true, yet the verses that doesn't work are explained by words by Man?

 

Religious people are defending and protecting God, because God can't do it himself. God can't give us the reasons why he doesn't answer prayers, but people have to give it, and it's not even Biblical.

[Druid]

I'm not 100% on this, but I think the Catholic Church is very skeptical about miracles preformed by individuals. They actually investigate claims of such extensively before saying that they are miracles or not. Also if an individual is shown to have preformed so many miracles he may be canonized. But from a church point of view miracles don't happen much.

 

Conversely I've heard televangelists saying god preformed a miracle by sending angels to protect drivers coming to his service. No road accident equals miracle. This I think is a bit mad.

[cerebralchristian]

CC:  Jesus supposedly said that his followers will do greater works than he himself did.  Can you name ONE?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hello Mythra--

 

That's an interesting question. I would say that the disciples of Christ have certainly fulfilled this prediction starting right away after Christ's ascension. You have probably read _Acts_ so you may know the works I am referring to.

 

In later centuries, disciples of Christ have performed many miracles and cast out demons in his name. They are still doing so today. They have successfully established his church, which endures.

 

If I haven't answered your question-- if you think I missed your point-- I will be glad to try again., just re-phrase.

 

 

Thanks,

 

CC

[cerebralchristian]

So your saying that Jesus wouldn't WANT you to heal people or feed the starving?  This isn't a reasonable request from your god?  Wouldn't it be a wonderful way to spread the word of your god by doing these miracles that your SUPPOSED to be able to do?  As Mythra said: "Jesus supposedly said that his followers will do greater works than he himself did. Can you name ONE?"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Hello Vixentrox,

 

No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying that he may or may not want me to carry out these things on any given day. What I'm saying is that I have the kind of relationship with him that is not just based on the scripture-- it's a;so based on daily interaction that has depth and substance.

 

That's what I meant when I said that Christianity is not supposed to be about sets of tenets or rote performance of scriptural commands-- it is intended to be about a spiritually intimate *relationship* between a human soul and God.

 

Without that relationship, obedience to tenets won't take a person very far as a Christian.

 

CC

[cerebralchristian]

Hello Lizard:

 

 

I love the sidestepping..did Jesus not say:

 

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 

Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

 

Not, "they might", or "if they have the gift"..but SHALL..

 

 

CC:

Lizard, I'm not sidestepping.

 

Lizard:

In 25 years, I've never seen an instant healing. 

 

CC:

I have, and it was both shocking and thrilling.  It has strengthened my faith.  I've seen demons cast out as well.

 

Lizard:

I prayed for healing for both of my sons.  They are not healed.

 

And the excuse that it is "god's will" for them not be just pisses me off more.  God wants my son deaf??  He wants my son to be bipolar??  For what glory is that???

 

CC:

Well, I can certainly understand your anger. I have a bipolar child, too.  It can be ver, very rough.  I keep him in my prayers constantly, but I make no demands of God.  I want his will-- I don't want him to do *my* will.

 

I think that you and a few of the others misunderstand the scripture you quote; I think you interpret it without enough context.  It's almost as if you (plural)have Fundamentalist glasses on.  Since I'm not a Fundamentalist, it is to be expected that I would look more at the context and less at the literal.

 

Lizard:

I'm tying to reign in some of my anger lately..at the bs that continues to be spouted..if it were true..both sons would have been healed when preacher layed hands on them.

 

CC:

See, here's where we differ.  I would say "it ain't necessarily so" regarding that premise. 

 

God is God and is not a vending machine that we can put prayer in and then receive desired answer.  God is very mysterious and humans don't fully  comprehend him.  But that's not a problem for me.  I think we learn of him through a long-term relationship with him that begins at conversion and deepens over time with growing understanding, love, and trust.  The only thing guaranteed to us is God's love- which is something tremedous-- and our lives will never be Tsunami proof.  He guarantees the longevity and survival of our souls, but not necessarily our physical bodies. 

 

Lizard:

There is a group who claims they are not for today.  It was simply for the apostles to "spread the word" and when the bible was written, they were no longer needed..which brings me to..

 

CC:

True.  But I don't agree with that theory. (I might agree had I not seen what I have seen.)

 

Lizard:

Ok..we have docs that can do alot.  But, what about the demon thing?  Not that I think demons are inhabiting the bodies of people, but following the logic that it says in the bable that they do..then, if these things are not for today, how do ya get the demons out of people?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

CC: They come out in the name of Jesus. They come out whining and screaming, etc.

 

I really want to emphasize that genuine Christianity is about a one-on-one spiritually intimate relationship between a person and God. If that relationship is in place, the difficult questions of scripture and the hard parts of life will not be stumbling blocks. But it takes time to really get to know God and learn how to listen to him and how to be aware of his compassionate presence.

 

You probably don't care to read what I'm about to write, but I 'll do so anyway. I believe God does hear your prayers and cares more than you know about you and your family. You may think it's rubbish, but I wanted to say it.

 

Thanks for this very interesting discussion!

 

CC

[Vixentrox]

Depth and substance? Does he cum in your mouth or something? How can you have depth and substance with a non-physical being?

[chefranden]

Hello Vixentrox,

 

If I believed the Lord asked me to do that specifically, I would do it.  But I try to make sure I am carrying out his requests, not my own impulses.  And, to be frank,  it is sometimes hard to tell the difference  For me, it requires much deep prayer.

Why do you have to worry about your "impulses" in the context of healing others of their misery? Jesus said you could do it. There are no caveats in the text. There is no, "wait until I tell you to first." There is no, "wait until your impulses are proper."

 

Plan and simple this is a cop out. I'm not saying that it is a dishonest cop out on your part -- you are trying to defend the faith -- but it is a cop out nonetheless.

 

I don't think there is much about the Chrisian life that is knee-jerk or cookie-cutter.  It's not about just believing a set of tenets and imitating Christ whenever possible-- it's about an initial commitment followed by a deepening relationship.  I think Christianity is about a *relationship* more than anything else.

Where does Jesus say this? Where is the famous it is all about relationship text? Maybe it got left out of the bibles I have read?

 

By the way, this is also not a caveat of the text being discussed. There is no, "wait until we are good buddies first."

 

Many of the posts I have seen in this forum presuppose the cookie-cutter Christianity.  But that is not what I mean when I say "Christianity."

 

Thanks for your post!

 

CC

Really? Give us a couple of examples?

[cerebralchristian]

Depth and substance?  Does he cum in your mouth or something?  How can you have depth and substance with a non-physical being?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Vixentrox--

 

Depth and substance do not have to be physical qualities in order to be experienced. An abstract relationship can have depth the same as a physical feature of the Earth-- say a lake-- can have depth. One type of depth is abstract; one is not.

 

For example, you may characterize a relationship with another human being-- perhaps your best friend-- as having depth and substance. Depth and substance apply to the abstract quality of the relationship.

 

This abstract quality is what I speak of.

 

But this type of word ping-pong is not productive.

 

Here's the crux of the matter, IMO:

 

What I think you are really saying is that I claim to have a relationship with an entity that you believe is nonexistent. I think we can agree on that!

 

 

CC

[cerebralchristian]

Why do you have to worry about your "impulses" in the context of healing others of their misery?  Jesus said you could do it.  There are no caveats in the text.  There is no, "wait until I tell you to first."  There is no, "wait until your impulses are proper."

 

CC: A disciple of Christ will act with discernment.

 

chefranden: Plan and simple this is a cop out.  I'm not saying that it is a dishonest cop out on your part -- you are trying to defend the faith -- but it is a cop out nonetheless.  Where does Jesus say this?  Where is the famous it is all about relationship text?  Maybe it got left out of the bibles I have read? 

 

CC: I don't know whether you have a Fundamentalist background-- and there's nothing wrong with that if you do-- but you seem to be approaching scripture that way.  That's not my background, so maybe that's why I'm not communicating successfully.  I'll try to rephrase in a way that may be more clear.  Look at Christ's relationship with the Father as presented in the Gospels.  This would be an applicable scriptural model of what I mean. I won't insult you by proceeding to cite passages-- you have likely read the Gospels numerous times and are familiar with that relationship.

 

chefranden: By the way, this is also not a caveat of the text being discussed.  There is no, "wait until we are good buddies first."

Really?  Give us a couple of examples?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

CC: My response to this would be the same as above. I refer to the paradigm of the Christ-Father Earthly relationship: pray--submit--discern--act.

 

CC

[Ouroboros]

I really want to emphasize that genuine Christianity is about a one-on-one spiritually intimate relationship between a person and God.  If that relationship is in place, the difficult questions of scripture and the hard parts of life will not be stumbling blocks.  But it takes time to really get to know God and learn how to listen to him and how to be aware of his compassionate presence.

Been there. Done that.

 

You probably don't care to read what I'm about to write, but I 'll do so anyway.  I believe God does hear your prayers and cares more than you know about you and your family.  You may think it's rubbish, but I wanted to say it.

Experience tells God doesn't care and doesn't hear.

[Ouroboros]

This is what the Bible is saying and how it's taught:

 

Bible: Everyone will win on lotto!

 

Doubter: But I didn't win, why?

 

Religious: Not everyone will win, you have to be selected

[chefranden]

CC: My response to this would be the same as above.  I refer to the paradigm of the Christ-Father Earthly relationship: pray--submit--discern--act.

 

CC

 

I was a moderate fundy.

 

Just curious, Have you done your own version of the bible yet? Like Tommy Jefferson?

[Mythra]

If I haven't answered your question-- if you think I missed your point--  I will be glad to try again., just re-phrase. 

Thanks,

 

CC

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, you didn't answer my question. I wasn't talking about miracles as described in the poorly written second-century novel that you call the book of acts. And I wasn't talking about miracles like "establishing a church". You call that a miracle?

 

What are you, completely whacked?

 

I tell you what. Don't tell me about miracles that are greater than Jesus' miracles. Just tell me about one or two documented miracles (say, in the last 500 years) that were even close to those supposedly performed by the god-man Jesus. I'll settle for a man born blind being given sight (other than by a doctor), or the dead raised back to life (even if it was a gerbil) or a man paralyzed (like Christopher Reeves) jumping up and doing the tango after someone's shadow passed over him. Anything. Just one.

 

I watched an interview with two modern-day faith healers. One was Benny Hinn and one was a dude from South Africa. Neither could explain why someone at one of their rallies might get up out of their wheelchair and jump around, only to be back in the wheelchair all messed up a couple of hours later. Happens regularly.

 

It's called the power of the mind.