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Goodbye Jesus

Christian Turned Pagan


One_World

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EXACTLY! That's what I wonder too, how someone can decide that Jesus isn't God and that Yahweh is absurd, and turn around and say that they believe in the Mother Goddess or Woden or other such nonsense.

 

What's the point of deconverting at all, then? People realize that it's just an emotional reaction based on ascientific nonsense. So what makes any other god any more real?? I mean, I know the purpose of this site is to help people recover from the delusion of Christianity, but perhaps there should be a separate section for helping people understand that going from one delusion to another delusion is absurd.

 

But... it's not "going from one delusion to another." Christianity is only a "delusion" because of the kinds of claims that it makes. It claims to be literally true. You can't look at paganism in the same way. It doesn't claim to be literally true; to bring "literal" into the picture at all is to miss the point entirely. (The attentive reader will notice that this includes calling pagan myths a "metaphor"; the concept of the metaphor depends implicitly on the concept of the literal.)

 

Moreover, even if you don't see Christianity as "an emotional reaction based on ascientific nonsense," there are still plenty of reasons to leave it--its quashing the human spirit, the horrible notion of Hell, etc.

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Just to make it clear to everyone involved. This section was made for the sole purpose for the Ex-Christians that still have some belief or faith of some kind, may it be pagan, or new age, or whatever, but the idea was that they would be able to post without feeling pressure against their beliefs.

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I dabbled in paganism after I left the church. Then I realized a problem and asked myself 'why should I stop following one set of ritualistic nonsense based on fables and chase after another one?' I quit. I just don't see the logic of trading one fable for another.

 

EXACTLY! That's what I wonder too, how someone can decide that Jesus isn't God and that Yahweh is absurd, and turn around and say that they believe in the Mother Goddess or Woden or other such nonsense.

 

What's the point of deconverting at all, then? People realize that it's just an emotional reaction based on ascientific nonsense. So what makes any other god any more real?? I mean, I know the purpose of this site is to help people recover from the delusion of Christianity, but perhaps there should be a separate section for helping people understand that going from one delusion to another delusion is absurd.

 

i'd just like to point out that not all of us pagans believe in some lord and lady literally living in the earth and sky.

 

when i left christianity, i was agnostic.

then i was agnostic/buddhist.

then i came to feel there was some bigger energy out there and found out about paganism.

 

i do not believe that the higher powers are literally gods like zeus isn't literally a giant man living on mount olympus or whetever.

 

it's a much more abstract concept for me. like great spiritual energies.

 

and i certainly did not swap one god for another.

neither did any of my other pagan friends.

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I dabbled in paganism after I left the church. Then I realized a problem and asked myself 'why should I stop following one set of ritualistic nonsense based on fables and chase after another one?' I quit. I just don't see the logic of trading one fable for another.

 

EXACTLY! That's what I wonder too, how someone can decide that Jesus isn't God and that Yahweh is absurd, and turn around and say that they believe in the Mother Goddess or Woden or other such nonsense.

 

What's the point of deconverting at all, then? People realize that it's just an emotional reaction based on ascientific nonsense. So what makes any other god any more real?? I mean, I know the purpose of this site is to help people recover from the delusion of Christianity, but perhaps there should be a separate section for helping people understand that going from one delusion to another delusion is absurd.

i'd also like to say that we do not call your beliefs a "delusion"

please be as respectful to us as we are to you.

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Another ex catholic here. I'd describe myself as a pagan athiest though.

 

Always nice to meet a fellow ex catholic.

 

Nice to meet you too! Can you explain what a pagan atheist is, please? I'm intrigued.

 

I would classify myself as an agnostic theist with weird overtones of paganism mixed in. In other words, confused.

 

I'll try an explain best I can.

I'd say that I'm primarily an athiest, as I don't believe the xtian god, or any other gods for that matter. I can easily accept that there's no real "purpose" or meaning necessary to be able to enjoy life. Recently I've come to think that Jesus was not a historical figure after seeing "The God Who Wasn't There" documentary by Brian Flemming (I'd reccomend watching it - pretty interesting).

The pagan beliefs I have are primarily nature based, that nature should be respected and protected, including the energies of the four elements (even scientifically you can see that - all four are sources of life and causes of death and destruction). I do believe in ghosts (actual experiences as a basis) and possibly spirits. I don't buy into worshipping or praying though.

 

I'm also not a part of any specific pagan group (note I describe myself as a "solitary pagan athiest" under my avatar). When I first left catholicism I tried Wicca, but was almost immidiately turned off by the behaviors of a lot of members - way too reminiscent of xtianity. I pretty much dislike discussing faith, so I keep that to myself unless specifically asked.

 

I've had some pagan friends who did worship gods (such as the Greek gods) but didn't strictly believe in them, saw them more as metaphors for events in nature and human character, they described themselves as "pagan athiests too.

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Just to make it clear to everyone involved. This section was made for the sole purpose for the Ex-Christians that still have some belief or faith of some kind, may it be pagan, or new age, or whatever, but the idea was that they would be able to post without feeling pressure against their beliefs.

 

I'm sorry, I saw the topic title but not the forum section title.

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Insanity Personified - Funny username. What are these occultic forms of paganism you've been looking into? And how does one explore such things carefully (as opposed to carelessly)? I'm interested in your thoughts, thanks.

 

 

just sort of the occult in general, but mostly the writings of Crowley....I think im leading towards buddhism though

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  • 3 weeks later...

I'm now Pagan, from a background in assorted backwoods Fundamentalism, with a stint as an Agnostic/Atheist in between.

 

And, as note, I'm also still kind of fond of The Philosopher Currently Known As Jesus.

 

Also of Kali. Who I'm just learning about.

 

Makes an interesting contrast. *lol*

 

In regards to believing in something...

 

Look. I struggled really painfully with faith for a really, really long time. I've believed, or tried to believe, in a lot of different things.

 

When I was a kid-- and I mean a little kid, like 4-to-6 range-- I believed [God] was real, magic came from [God], there were lots of other worlds, and I could step into myself in those other worlds by putting my thoughts there.

 

When I was older, I tried really hard to subscribe to the Christian reality. I couldn't let go of at least thinking about the magic, but I could convince myself that it was an imaginary thing that I'd grow out of around the same time that I outgrew my dolls and my doctor kit.

 

When I was a teenager, I tried really hard to throw away all belief. Science was what smart people believed in. I wanted to be a smart people. Therefore I believed in science. I still couldn't throw religion away entirely, so I looked at it from a sociological standpoint and tried very hard to suppress any 'real belief' in something as 'unenlightened' as religion/spirituality/belief in supernatural stuff.

 

In my late teens and early 20's, I got really depressed. I was using a lot of pot and thinking pretty hard about taking myself the hell out of the gene pool, since from a scientific point of view I was an aberration (I'm on the very-high-functioning end of the autistic spectrum).

 

One thing and another happened. I met a few people who, if they couldn't really work real magic, could play one hell of a convincing mind game. At some point in all that, I started believing again, or anyway really, really, really wanting to believe again. I thought I was stupid. I thought it was real. I thought I was going schizophrenic. I thought it was real. I thought it was real, in some ways, and not real, in some ways, and my brain was just too damn used to working in literalistic black-and-whites to work it out.

 

I started wondering what the hell reality was.

 

I decided that, within certain obvious functional limits, reality is constructed of perception, and therefore is whatever the hell you decide it is. Therefore, it might as well be something that, A) makes you happy, B) helps you function effectively, and C) encourages you to grow.

 

Joe prefers a reality where there are no gods, no supernatural thingies, and no existence after this one?? You go, Joe.

 

Jane prefers a reality where a single God looks down upon her and directs the course of her life, and there's a sky palace to go to when you die if you pleased God?? Right on, sweetheart.

 

Suzy prefers a reality where there are many gods, she can choose the ones that are most relevant to her, she can work magic to change her circumstances, and she'll be back in a different form some day?? If it works for her, it works for me.

 

I think people tend to criticize others' belief mostly out of a need, somewhere, to validate their own. They need to prove that they're right, objectively right and right for everyone, in order to be at deep peace with what they believe (or maybe what they don't).

 

Who am I to make any universal statements about what is real and what is not?? If perception makes reality, and the only perception I've ever seen through is my own, then the only person I'm qualified to define reality for is me...

 

...and the same goes for everyone else...

 

...and, furthermore, the only person who is qualified to define reality for me, is me.

 

And the same goes for everyone else.

 

I can raise questions, ask people to consider points, but I can't tell people what is real and correct and what is "self-deluding, un-enlightened, knuckle-dragging hogwash" or some similar.

 

'Cause one person's hogwash may be another person's lifeline.

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Oh, yeah--

 

IP, look into whatever you want to look into. That is how one finds the spirituality that works.

 

Keep that very firmly in mind thru the rest of what I have to say.

 

Be very, very careful in exploring Crowley-esque Paganism. There are lots of good people out there, and lots of enlightening things you can learn.

 

There are also people out there who take the shock-value aspects of some of Paganism's more controversial figures (and Crowley is one), and also some of the shock-value stereotypes perpetuated by modern Dominionist/Evangelical/Fundamentalist Christianity, and make harmful, twisted, and abusive things out of them.

 

Hey-- any religion can be co-opted and corrupted.

 

These people are few. I honestly believe that most people who look around in various forms of Paganism will never meet one, or even meet someone who has. In six-to-seven years of exploration, I have met one such group, and one person who got out of another such group.

 

I say this, not to frighten you, but because you could fit the profile of the kind of person the creep I met looked for-- young, potentially with depressive tendencies, and with a history of exposure to abusive Christianity.

 

In all your explorations, value yourself. Listen to your instincts-- if something feels creepy (and I think you'll know 'creepy' if you feel it), split. Keep an eye to what it feeds-- if it feeds hate or fear, whether of self or of others, split.

 

Google a couple of things-- the "Bonewits Cult Frame" and the "Coven Abuse Self-Help Index"-- and apply them to any group you consider, whether Pagan or otherwise.

 

Oh, and-- that goes for the rest of y'all, too.

 

Sorry if I offend. I just kinda happen to be something of a spiritual abuse prevention nazi.

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Guest Zenobia

I wrote this article and posted it ages ago in a forum that no longer exists. It was dedicated to people who are leaving judeo-christianity and who are truth seekers. May you find it helpful...

 

Losing My Religion

 

Many years ago, when my young mind was at its most inquisitive, soaking in knowledge like a hungry sponge, it came up against the formidable barriers of religion. My wild, free-roaming imagination was quickly tamed by strict zealots who believed that “foolishness abounds in the heart of a child, but the rod of correction shall drive it far from ye.â€

 

Like me, you may have grown up in one of the stricter Western religions. And now, when you examine your thoughts and feelings, you may find that they are grounded in the teachings which were thrust upon you in your youth.

 

You may find yourself questioning the very foundation of your beliefs, and to your horror, this foundation is now crumbling away. You are left with a vast expanse of unexplored philosophical questions, and you have no idea where to begin.

 

You may start by reading books about that which was once forbidden, but there are so many titles to choose from, where do you begin? Should you start with astrology, tarot, numerology? Or do you turn to pagan beliefs, Wicca? What about Eastern religions like Buddhism, Hinduism, Zen, Taoism? And don’t forget Native American practices - the medicine wheel, totem spirits, shamanism.

 

You may feel overwhelmed so you just grab something that appeals to you - maybe you liked the cover of the book - you buy it and you go on your way.

 

Believe it or not, you have done exactly the right thing. Your adult mind is feeling so overwhelmed, trying in vain to rationalize its way through a sea of questions - that your subconscious mind - your inner child - has come to the rescue.

 

You may have thought the child was banished all those years ago, but she was merely scolded into hiding. All this time, she has been waiting for you to call on her again. She is longing to come out and play!

 

While your adult mind is slogging through the deep sludge of mental quandary - your inner child is bounding merrily along through bright colors, unusual smells and strange new music. She is having a field day!

 

So why not give your adult mind a much needed rest, and invite your inner child out to play more often? Let her make the choices that were taken away from her long ago. If she wants to buy a book because she likes the cover, why not let her? If she wants to play with crystals and druid stones - don’t try to reason it out, just let her play. Maybe she wants to burn incense, beat on some drums, or chant. Why not? It’s fun!

 

Your inner child reasons intuitively, not intellectually. And intuition - not intellect - is the staff you need to lean upon as you begin your exploration - your adventure - through unchartered territory. Enjoy your journey!

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I say this, not to frighten you, but because you could fit the profile of the kind of person the creep I met looked for-- young, potentially with depressive tendencies, and with a history of exposure to abusive Christianity.

 

You're pretty well right on! Question: What tipped you off to the "with depressive tendencies" part? Just curious.

 

 

Sorry if I offend. I just kinda happen to be something of a spiritual abuse prevention nazi.

 

Not offended at all. I really appreciate what you shared in your posts. Gracias, amigo.

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Believe it or not, you have done exactly the right thing. Your adult mind is feeling so overwhelmed, trying in vain to rationalize its way through a sea of questions - that your subconscious mind - your inner child - has come to the rescue.

 

You may have thought the child was banished all those years ago, but she was merely scolded into hiding. All this time, she has been waiting for you to call on her again. She is longing to come out and play!

 

While your adult mind is slogging through the deep sludge of mental quandary - your inner child is bounding merrily along through bright colors, unusual smells and strange new music. She is having a field day!

 

So why not give your adult mind a much needed rest, and invite your inner child out to play more often? Let her make the choices that were taken away from her long ago. If she wants to buy a book because she likes the cover, why not let her? If she wants to play with crystals and druid stones - don’t try to reason it out, just let her play. Maybe she wants to burn incense, beat on some drums, or chant. Why not? It’s fun!

 

Your inner child reasons intuitively, not intellectually. And intuition - not intellect - is the staff you need to lean upon as you begin your exploration - your adventure - through unchartered territory. Enjoy your journey! [/i]

 

Wow, well-written article but this part I selected really spoke to me. I have a real problem with exposing myself, whether it be my lack of faith in Christianity or my faith in anything else. I'm going to make a concerted effort to be more open. Thank you for sharing.

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Guest Zenobia

I'm so glad it helped One-World :) Enjoy your journey, have fun with it! Explore, adventure... like Indiana Jones.

 

Blessed be.

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I'm so glad it helped One-World :) Enjoy your journey, have fun with it! Explore, adventure... like Indiana Jones.

 

Blessed be.

 

Most definitely! I'm excited because I plan to pursue a Celtic-influenced form of Paganism...I've been drawn very strongly to it since I was 19, 2 years after I stopped attending Mass and calling myself a Christian. I've always kind of hidden that part of me, the mystical feelings of connection to Celtic spirituality because there is no logical reason I should be drawn in such a way. I like knowing it's my intuition guiding me ;)

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Guest Zenobia
I'm so glad it helped One-World :) Enjoy your journey, have fun with it! Explore, adventure... like Indiana Jones.

 

Blessed be.

 

Most definitely! I'm excited because I plan to pursue a Celtic-influenced form of Paganism...I've been drawn very strongly to it since I was 19, 2 years after I stopped attending Mass and calling myself a Christian. I've always kind of hidden that part of me, the mystical feelings of connection to Celtic spirituality because there is no logical reason I should be drawn in such a way. I like knowing it's my intuition guiding me ;)

 

isn't it nice to just follow your gut instincts, your WHIMS, instead of what people tell you you "should" do? SHOULD shouldn't be a word, IMHO...

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Guest InvisiblePinkUnicornPony
Another ex catholic here. I'd describe myself as a pagan athiest though.
Me as well. Believing in the goddess would be like believing in a rock I just believe it's energy.
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*I believe in a duality of the higher power because of the fact that although male myself, I never liked the Catholic Church's teachings that men are superior. Male/female is the yin/yang of every species on earth. Otherwise, we'd be asexual beings, no? I have no rational explanation for why the concept of Mother Earth/Father Sky appeals to me, but I don't take it literally.

 

Why would God, who is non-physical, be gendered at all?

 

*I believe in the existence of Jesus. That one's easy, I also believe in the existence of Thomas Jefferson, Jim Morrison, Sitting Bull, Jenna Jameson, etc. Heck, there are lots of humans who have existed, Jesus is one of those.

 

There's more evidence for all of those people than there is for Jesus.

 

Am I convinced he is the Son of God sent to earth? No, not really. I think there was something special about him...I don't take his actions in the Bible as truth, but I do think he was a teacher who taught the golden rule. I respect that.

 

Well of course Jesus seems special when our only knowledge of him comes from those who thought he was divine. The information you are getting from the gospels is highly biased and rose-tinted. Who knows what the real Jesus was like (if he even existed).

 

*I believe in the idea of many gods and goddesses. If there's one, why stop at one? I know many people who feel braver believing Thor is watching them or more at peace with Lu nearby. Just because I haven't personally experienced it doesn't discount their beliefs. The idea has just always felt real to me, I guess I'm not sure why.

 

Again, why would God, who is non-physical, be quanitfiable at all? A spiritual essence behind the Universe could be seen as being one, or many, or one that takes on many forms. With something non-physical the idea of number becomes a bit hard to define.

 

*I believe in the spiritual side of nature. This is the pure optimist in me. I try to see the best in everything and I believe that there's more that guides the life of an ant than mere biological processes. I think everything has a lifeforce (soul?). Witness the power of a thunderstorm and if you don't feel some spirit inside you buzzing...I can't comprehend that. Nature is all around us, we just have to learn to listen.

 

Spiritual feelings are something about the way human beings relate to nature and the cosmos. It doesn't necessarily tell us anything about the way nature and the cosmos actually are. But on the other hand nature does give rise to consciousness in biological beings - consciousness seems to be simply the result of an inter-connectedness, as a lifeform takes in information about its surroundings - but that still makes nature pretty awe-inspiring even if it is purely physical.

 

Just showing you other perspectives on these things - but I respect spiritual beliefs if they are life-affirming ones :)

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There are two different ways of looking at religion. The Greeks characterized the approaches as logos vs. mythos. Logos is an approach from a rational, logical perspective. The word "logos", literally meaning "word," is where we get the word "logic." Mythos, in contrast, involves the rejection of the logical worldview insofar as the purpose is not to get a literal truth, but to involve oneself in (subjectively) timeless stories that give context and meaning to one's life. This is not to say that logic is entirely abandoned--logic in the modern sense of the word cannot be--but there is a focus on the non-rational. As long as one makes the distinction, one can involve oneself in both. The ancient philosophers were intensely logical in their writings, and yet they did not shun the pagan ceremonies of the state.

 

One of the biggest problems with Christianity is that it wants to have its cake and eat it, too. It tries to be both logical and mythical at the same time, treating stories that should clearly be read mythically as logically true as well. Atheists coming of Christianity generally accept that the logical and mythical should be not only harmonized but synthesized, and so they accept logical truths as their new myths and fables. While this is not entirely a bad approach, I believe it is usually followed without adequate attention to the possibility of a distinction.

 

So, when a pagan performs rituals, it is not the same at all as a Christian communion.

 

Wow! Very illuminating - and very similar to some thoughts I've been having recently.

 

Science is the tool for finding out what is ontologically real about the universe. This is the path of the logical mind.

 

But human beings are poetic beings, and as we look out at the cosmos we try to gain some form of meaning and significance - this is why we invent mythical symbols and ethical systems to try and navigate our way through life. And there is nothing wrong with this, as long as we realise that we are inventing symbols in order to make more sense of the world, rather than saying something about how the world actually is in-and-of-itself. This is the path of the poetic heart.

 

The problem with christianity is it confuses the two. The problem with unimaginative atheism is that it rejects the second path in favour of the first.

 

Paganism can be a useful way of embracing the second path and can therefore be perfectly compatible with atheism. Together with Buddhism (which is really just a useful tool for becoming a better person and finding some inner peace), this seems to me to be a healthy approach to have.

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Just to make it clear to everyone involved. This section was made for the sole purpose for the Ex-Christians that still have some belief or faith of some kind, may it be pagan, or new age, or whatever, but the idea was that they would be able to post without feeling pressure against their beliefs.

 

I always worry about the rules in this particular section.

 

I hope I didn't violate them in my post to One-world. I was really just sharing ideas and offering another perspective, which is why I also said I respect spiritual beliefs that are life-affirming.

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Zenobia said:SHOULD shouldn't be a word[/b] This was a big part of my journey, the whole dichotomy between SHOULD and I CHOOSE. A child, when learning about the society it is born into must abide by 'should and should not'. However, when it is an adult and can see the impact of its behaviour, it must move on to 'choose' and then take responsibility for that choice. So many people get stuck in 'should and should not' and then resent their situation because they are disempowered of choice. Likewise, whatever happens to them is not their fault because they're victims of someone else's 'should'.

 

No.

 

I choose to reject the 'shoulds' of christianity along with the supporting basis for those 'shoulds'. I choose to retain the relationship with the divine that I built personally, even though I have no formed rationalisation for it.

 

Florduh said:[/b] "Dabbling" in Paganism is cool.[/b] Paganism is just a term that describes any spiritual practice not condoned by christianity. Like to all humankind ... that we share a sense of some further depth to our existance, some deeper influence and inner need to connect with it. Except for the legion of aethists of course :-) who I'm sure disagree with that statement. Opening up to other practices allows us to further explore who the divine might be and what relationship we can have with divinity.
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Gah! We can't edit our own responses! I can't go back and fix up my tags! Apologies.

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Guest Zenobia
Gah! We can't edit our own responses! I can't go back and fix up my tags! Apologies.

 

You will get the ability to "edit" after a certain number of posts. I think it's around 20 or so :)

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Why would God, who is non-physical, be gendered at all?

 

The traditional Christian idea of God is a masculine one. I think when I said I believe in the duality (which I admit does mean male/female), but in a sense we're in agreement. If God is non-physical, it is everywhere...male and female, all-encompassing. The entire universe is all about balance...two halves make up a whole, even if you choose not to separate the halves.

 

There's more evidence for all of those people than there is for Jesus.

 

True, but mostly because they all lived at least 1600 years or so after Jesus was presumed to have walked the earth. Records weren't kept as well in that time period. I know evidence is crucial to prove most points, but I do think most people can agree that it's possible Jesus existed as a mortal in 1st century Palestine.

 

Well of course Jesus seems special when our only knowledge of him comes from those who thought he was divine. The information you are getting from the gospels is highly biased and rose-tinted. Who knows what the real Jesus was like (if he even existed).

 

I'll concede this and chalk my view up to opinion, as the entirety of my OP was. If I have no proof of his existence, I certainly have no proof of his qualities as a person.

 

Again, why would God, who is non-physical, be quanitfiable at all? A spiritual essence behind the Universe could be seen as being one, or many, or one that takes on many forms. With something non-physical the idea of number becomes a bit hard to define.

 

True, there may be one, none, or many spiritual essences known as Gods active in our world. Again, opinion. Nothing I stated was meant to be presented as factual. I could also use your argument if someone said there was only one God as well. We just don't know enough about it to really debate one's personal spirituality on a message board.

 

Spiritual feelings are something about the way human beings relate to nature and the cosmos. It doesn't necessarily tell us anything about the way nature and the cosmos actually are. But on the other hand nature does give rise to consciousness in biological beings - consciousness seems to be simply the result of an inter-connectedness, as a lifeform takes in information about its surroundings - but that still makes nature pretty awe-inspiring even if it is purely physical.

 

Just showing you other perspectives on these things - but I respect spiritual beliefs if they are life-affirming ones :)

 

I appreciate your responses to my beliefs, but I have to ask here, seriously? Science is very important, I'll grant that. I'm not an atheist but I believe strongly in natural explanations for every phenomenon known thus far (and many not identified as yet). Wouldn't a higher level of consciousness be the result of proof of inter-connectedness? I'm not sure I follow your dismissal of spiritual forces at work in nature. Just because it doesn't necessarily tell us anything about the way nature and the cosmos actually are does not mean it can dismissed with a wave of one's hand. I think sometimes there are people so dependent on chalking spirituality up as a bunch of garbage that they eagerly toss out the dreaded strawman argument to promote logic and slam faith. The two are strange bedfollows, granted, but they do find themselves together in some belief sets and work out just fine. It's the individual's right to search for that personal gnosis.

 

All in all though, I do appreciate your input and your thoughts...thanks for respecting my beliefs as best you can.

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Guest Zenobia
I appreciate your responses to my beliefs, but I have to ask here, seriously? Science is very important, I'll grant that. I'm not an atheist but I believe strongly in natural explanations for every phenomenon known thus far (and many not identified as yet). Wouldn't a higher level of consciousness be the result of proof of inter-connectedness? I'm not sure I follow your dismissal of spiritual forces at work in nature. Just because it doesn't necessarily tell us anything about the way nature and the cosmos actually are does not mean it can dismissed with a wave of one's hand. I think sometimes there are people so dependent on chalking spirituality up as a bunch of garbage that they eagerly toss out the dreaded strawman argument to promote logic and slam faith. The two are strange bedfollows, granted, but they do find themselves together in some belief sets and work out just fine. It's the individual's right to search for that personal gnosis.

 

All in all though, I do appreciate your input and your thoughts...thanks for respecting my beliefs as best you can.

 

Ahhh... good question One World... The answer depends on the person.

 

My view: Nature is, of and by itself, Divine. Nature simply IS. WAS. WILL BE. Nature truly is the Alpha and Omega that christians attribute to their god. Nature was not "created" by any conscious mind - it simpy ALWAYS WAS. In one form or another. There may have been an INFINATE number of Big Bangs. Nature goes on, eternally, in cycle after cycle. The smallest microcosm of nature is simply a reflection of the greatest.

 

A tiny seed sprouts, grows into a flower, blooms, wilts, dies, goes to seed, lies dormant... then repeats the cycle.

The UNIVERSE follows the same pattern. A tiny "seed" explodes into life, billions of star-systems shoot off into the cosmos, "bloom" for countless millenia, then wilt and turn to "seed."

 

The universe fills me with awe and wonder... that is the beginning of the spirituality I feel.

 

It isn't exactly an "answer" but it's as good an explaination as I can give. To ascribe the Universe to "god" is silly - especially a god so petty and small-minded as the one in the babble. Such a being could only have been created by man.

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Zenobia,

 

Great response and thank you. I agree: nature is divine. That was the point I was trying (with great awkwardness, as is my way) to make in my reply to Evolution_beyond...that the presence of spirituality in nature is not just a way of understanding our inter-connectedness, it IS our inter-connectedness. As humans, we grow from the tiniest spark of life until that ends, at which point our bodies are returned to our Earth Mother and we begin the cycle again, as a part of the universe.

 

Just to be clear, I was not attempting to chalk up the workings of the universe to the Christian God. If we're to believe the stories, what kind of respect and reverance for nature does that God show by wiping out all but two members of every animal species to teach another tired lesson? I've heard of "thinning the herds", but that's ridiculously extreme. I see the Pagan Gods in all parts of nature, the wind blowing, the waves crashing, the multi-colored tulips in my neighbor's garden, the coyote. Their handprints are everywhere and reflected in all aspects of the natural world. When I speak of the Gods being present in nature, it's merely my way of staying connected to my deities while respecting and revering something tangible in the world in which I live.

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