Why Is Describing The Holy Spirit So Varied?

[DarthOkkata]

I've been asking a few questions of different people for the past few weeks.

 

Describe what getting a bucket of water dumped over your head feels like.

 

Describe what chocolate ice cream taste like.

 

Describe how the sun feels.

 

If female and with children, I'd ask: Describe what child birth feels like.

 

Describe what sex feels like.

 

Describe what being filled with the Holy Spirit feels like.

 

Everyone seemed willing to answer my questions, I only had one or two refuse the sex question, and allowed them to skip it. I didn't push for answers, or offer any help with the answers. It was pretty much a poll I took when I had a bit of free time and someone to ask at work. I polled roughly 200 people or so over the course of a little over two weeks, both customers, and people I work with, and a few more outside of work.

 

If you ask someone what getting a bucket of water dumped over their head, or what chocolate ice cream tastes like, or how the sun feels, you'll get pretty much the same answers from anyone.

 

There will be of course be different perspectives, but some information will be universal, and you'll end up with pretty much the same descriptions.

 

A bucket of water could have varying opinions, some would associate it with winning a sporting event, others a prank. Still, in the end you'd get 'cold, wet, and dripping'.

 

Chocolate ice cream may involve ice cream headaches, but you'd almost always get 'cold, sweet, creamy, and chocolate'.

 

The sun will likely get you some form of 'warm, bright'.

 

Ask a woman with children what childbirth is like, and you'll get a similar story.

 

Ask someone what sex feels like, and you'll also get similar descriptions.

 

There would be lots of small variations, as everyone has had different experiences with each. However, the basic description would remain unchanged.

 

Ask someone what 'being filled with the Holy Spirit' is like, and you'll get wildly different, and not at all similar explanations. That is, if they don't go the route of 'you couldn't understand without experiencing it'. Which is just a cop out.

 

My point is, that since everyone should be experiencing the same 'force' or 'energy' there should be similarities. You might find similar descriptions within a congregation, but even at a different church from the same sect, you'll get something completely different every time.

 

Everything from speaking in tongues, to laying on of hands, to spastic seizure like reveling. It's wildly different depending on where you are, and who it is you're speaking too.

 

In other words, it seems like they're just sort of making it up. There are just too many variations to account for. Sure, some people react to some things in different ways, peanut butter can kill some people. However, even people with allergies will describe similar experiences.

 

It's just not like that with the Holy Spirit.

 

Why? How do you explain this? There's just too much variation and difference for people who are experiencing the same force to claim 'it's different for different people'. It's just not similar for anyone. The 'personal experience' excuse just doesn't stand with that kind of turnout. It's just too much.

 

I can only deduce that they're making it up, whether they are aware of it or not. It seems to be the only rational explanation.

[Dhampir]

Because the holy spirit presents itself differently to everyone. That's how you know it's real. of course that's also how you know something is made up.

[florduh]

Maybe because each one is just making it up? Just my guess.

[Shion]

The "Holy Spirit" is also the worst defined aspect of the Trinity. Everyone knows what water is, ect. These are physical, common experiences.

 

Being filled with the "Holy Spirit" is the invisible mark that Christians like to hold out as a badge or trophy. "I felt the Holy Spirit guide me, so I am special." Each Christian likes to out do the other as to how powerful, emotionally fulfilling, awesome their experience was.

[DarthOkkata]

The "Holy Spirit" is also the worst defined aspect of the Trinity. Everyone knows what water is, ect. These are physical, common experiences.

 

Being filled with the "Holy Spirit" is the invisible mark that Christians like to hold out as a badge or trophy. "I felt the Holy Spirit guide me, so I am special." Each Christian likes to out do the other as to how powerful, emotionally fulfilling, awesome their experience was.

 

It is interesting to note, that they seem quite agreeable about the matter of what the Holy Spirit feels like when you talk to them in groups.

 

That would imply that it should be the same for more people than it is when you speak to them separately. Groups of Christians was the only time it was ever similar.

 

I also feel I should note, I didn't pose the entire list of questions to every customer. There were a few I omitted when not speaking to a much smaller group. I'd like to keep my job, and it should be easy to pick out which didn't make the public audience. They were more an interesting side note.

 

It was surprisingly easy to do, they seemed quite pleased to relate.

[Shion]

It is interesting to note, that they seem quite agreeable about the matter of what the Holy Spirit feels like when you talk to them in groups.

 

That would imply that it should be the same for more people than it is when you speak to them separately. Groups of Christians was the only time it was ever similar.

 

I also feel I should note, I didn't pose the entire list of questions to every customer. There were a few I omitted when not speaking to a much smaller group. I'd like to keep my job, and it should be easy to pick out which didn't make the public audience. They were more an interesting side note.

 

It was surprisingly easy to do, they seemed quite pleased to relate.

 

We are social beings, and so group experiences are important. The 'Holy Spirit', group meditations, dancing around the fire, ect. bring up similar feelings of group excitement and euphoria, because it brings together a group of individuals into a special community, it replaces the tribal fire.

[DarthOkkata]

We are social beings, and so group experiences are important. The 'Holy Spirit', group meditations, dancing around the fire, ect. bring up similar feelings of group excitement and euphoria, because it brings together a group of individuals into a special community, it replaces the tribal fire.

 

My point was, that if these people were talking about the same subject separately, the evidence at hand suggest they would all have different explanations.

 

Whether they know it or not, they still appear to be making it all up.

 

They only agreed when they were able to hear other people talking about it first, and there was a lot of nodding and raising of hands within the group.

 

In other words, if they discuss it with other Christians, it seems to effect them in the same way. If not, you get something completely different for everyone. That has the earmarks of lying to fit in and be part of the group all over it.

 

"Yeah. That's it, just what it feels like!" Kind of like a closeted virgin talking about sex with other people.

 

Social tendencies aside, it's still delusion. Even invisible forces tend to effect things in the same manner. Gravity makes everything fall, radiation, and magnetic fields will have the same effect on the same type of matter. The only real difference being the level of exposure to said energy.

 

Why is the Holy Spirit so different?

 

The answer so far is still 'they're making it all up'.

 

I've noticed no Christians have yet to see fit to argue otherwise yet. I'd be interested to hear how they explain this unusual phenomenon.

 

I'm betting the best they can do is 'it's unique for everyone'. That just doesn't fit with the way the Universe works in general though. I can't think of anything else that's so different for everyone. Even emotions like love, anger, and fear might get different explanations from different people, but there would be correlations in the explanations. Some things would pop up consistently, and remain relatively universal.

 

The Holy Spirit doesn't seem to have any consistent similarities with anyone.

[insanezenmistress]

My point is, that since everyone should be experiencing the same 'force' or 'energy' there should be similarities. You might find similar descriptions within a congregation, but even at a different church from the same sect, you'll get something completely different every time.

 

 

 

In other words, it seems like they're just sort of making it up. There are just too many variations to account for. Sure, some people react to some things in different ways, peanut butter can kill some people. However, even people with allergies will describe similar experiences.

 

It's just not like that with the Holy Spirit.

 

Why? How do you explain this? There's just too much variation and difference for people who are experiencing the same force to claim 'it's different for different people'. It's just not similar for anyone. The 'personal experience' excuse just doesn't stand with that kind of turnout. It's just too much.

 

I can only deduce that they're making it up, whether they are aware of it or not. It seems to be the only rational explanation.

 

 

Alright. Lets think about this. In Kundilini Yoga there are testible signs and methods of engageing in Unoin with the god spirit.

 

These people practice and learn and adapt themselves to achieving a spirit that it consistantly gives the same experiecnes from Jittering uncontrolably to speaking in tounges and also unto experienceing oneness with god and all the ways and mannors down into just having wicked cool sex.

 

People may discribie it differently, and they many experiences it under a different mythology, and they may even experience it in a personalized mannor. But when allalized, they are experiencings the same it-ness.

 

It may only appear to the casaul observer that the discriptions of the holy are contridictory to every other conceptiaul noun one can experience.

 

 

 

And yes, we can and do fake it till we make it. First we carry the ideal, then the zeal to attain, then we become real. It is then that we can't express the magnitude in simple words, to the broad question " so....whats god like?"

 

izm

[DarthOkkata]

I can describe God. It's easy.

 

God is like nothing, because God is nothing.

 

Well, as an ex full on hardcore believer, I say you're full of it. I noticed this phenomenon first when I was still within the multitude of faithful. The idea that it's 'different for everyone' was enough to explain why everyone described the Holy Spirit in a different way, for a while that is. It crossed my mind again every once and a while when I was around people talking about it. Recently, after a frustrating discussion about it with some Christians I know, I decided to do a bit of asking around.

 

They still don't like to talk about the results.

 

Being 'filled with it' as a real phenomenon that actually happens to people doesn't fit the evidence, pure and simple.

 

Being delusional on the other hand, well, that's provable.

 

What you're talking about is different anyway. When it's clearly explained what to expect, and how you should act, then that is what you do. Faking, or deluding yourself into believing or not. If you're given conditions to meet, you find them. Being 'trained' adds another layer of BS, as I'm fairly certain, from my own evidence, that if you put someone through the same thing, without explaining what will be felt beforehand in detail, you'll get completely different stories from everyone.

 

I'd even go so far as to say I have little doubt, a percentage of greater than ninety percent will get most of the details not related to what was explained beforehand, completely different.

 

According to any evidence I've seen on the subject, it amounts too training yourself to be a conformed delusional attention whore.

 

I'm not a scientist, but it's fairly obvious. I've heard from all sorts of people about this, not just when I was asking either. I've never heard the same story from people who weren't right next to each other, -and- who worship in the same building.

 

That has all the earmarks of something people are just making up.

[insanezenmistress]

What you're talking about is different anyway. When it's clearly explained what to expect, and how you should act, then that is what you do. Faking, or deluding yourself into believing or not. If you're given conditions to meet, you find them. Being 'trained' adds another layer of BS, as I'm fairly certain, from my own evidence, that if you put someone through the same thing, without explaining what will be felt beforehand in detail, you'll get completely different stories from everyone.

 

I'd even go so far as to say I have little doubt, a percentage of greater than ninety percent will get most of the details not related to what was explained beforehand, completely different.

 

According to any evidence I've seen on the subject, it amounts too training yourself to be a conformed delusional attention whore.

 

I'm not a scientist, but it's fairly obvious. I've heard from all sorts of people about this, not just when I was asking either. I've never heard the same story from people who weren't right next to each other, -and- who worship in the same building.

 

That has all the earmarks of something people are just making up.

 

 

Well naturally since i wish to disagree with you, i wont be able to find anyone of my reference pages. i will work on that in order to show that some of the varied manifestations of the holy spirit that you would really call into question do have consistant demonstration only not under the banner of all things chrisitian.

 

But on the other hand i do see your point. Not so much about evreyone being deluded but about the different personal ways to try to discribe the holy spirit. I mean i have, after deconversion read people who seem to have interpreted the holy ghosty anywhere from goosbumps to warm fuzzies. Or someone will get an impression or an insight and think that to be the holy ghost only to later find out the information was bogus. I have read Lee Randolphs excellent arguments at debunking chrisitianity about the holy spirit and would find myself in agreement with him, perhaps by default you also.

 

i was trying to make a difference between the person who is discribing their warm fuzzy and the person involved with say the toronto blessing. And commonly in my experience the people doing the holy rolling tend to have simular experiences. Which , of curse yu can answer back with " that is mass hysteria"

 

But my point is it is the same hysteria including the same manifestations wether i am in toronto or in lakewood florida. And in some parts of the world those same 'delusions' happen under the guise of Kundilini yoga. And in that place people wrote down and discuss the delusions in a scientifc mannor to determine amungst themselves wether the practitioner is making it up or if they are what kundilini practitioners would understand to be deluded.

 

 

To your point about being "trained" as i sugessted. i understand you to be thinking about if a personis told what to expect then they would make themselves have that..............and also that what you have heard doesnt seem to be consistant. Here is where i need to find a particular artical (out of a website of articles i only seen once) to show my disagreement more clearly. The people of the toronto blessing, forinstance, had no access to any check-list of kundilini manifestation yet when you see the list you will be able to see the toronto blessing and maybe some other of the discriptions you have come across in your time. Making my point that there is consistancy in their experiences.

 

Though i have to agree with you that there is inconcistany as to the interpretations of the experiences and in the personal discriptives of the god-ideal they identify as the holy ghosty.

 

But briefly for starters

 

"The following are common manifestations of the risen Kundalini:

 

Muscle twitches, cramps or spasms.

Energy rushes or immense electricity circulating the body

Itching, vibrating, prickling, tingling, stinging or crawling sensations

Intense heat or cold

Involuntary bodily movements (occur more often during meditation, rest or sleep):

jerking, tremors, shaking; feeling an inner force pushing one into postures or moving one's body in unusual ways.

(May be misdiagnosed as epilepsy, restless legs syndrome, or PLMD

Alterations in eating and sleeping patterns

Episodes of extreme hyperactivity or, conversely, overwhelming fatigue

Intensified or diminished sexual desires

Headaches, pressures within the skull

Racing heartbeat, pains in the chest

Digestive system problems

Numbness or pain in the limbs (particularly the left foot and leg)

Pains and blockages anywhere; often in the back and neck

Emotional outbursts; rapid mood shifts; seemingly unprovoked or excessive episodes of grief, fear, rage, depression

Spontaneous vocalizations (including laughing and weeping) -- are as unintentional and uncontrollable as hiccoughs

Hearing an inner sound or sounds, classically described as a flute, drum, waterfall, birds singing, bees buzzing but which may also sound like roaring, whooshing, or thunderous noises or like ringing in the ears.

Mental confusion; difficulty concentrating

Altered states of consciousness: heightened awareness; spontaneous trance states; mystical experiences (if the individual's prior belief system is too threatened by these, they can lead to bouts of psychosis or self-grandiosity)

Heat, strange activity, and/or blissful sensations in the head, particularly in the crown area.

Ecstasy, bliss and intervals of tremendous joy, love, peace and compassion

Psychic experiences: extrasensory perception; out-of-body experiences; pastlife memories; astral travel; direct awareness of auras and chakras; contact with spirit guides through inner voices, dreams or visions; healing powers

Increased creativity: new interests in self-expression and spiritual communication through music, art, poetry, etc.

Intensified understanding and sensitivity: insight into one's own essence; deeper understanding of spiritual truths; exquisite awareness of one's environment (including "vibes" from others)

Enlightenment experiences: direct Knowing of a more expansive reality; transcendent awareness ""

[SWIM]

BTW this does not just apply to the holy spirit, this "feeling" that people get. Some people have an ablitiy to "get into" something so much they manifest feelings. I know a woman that can go into nearly any funeral, and have massive waterworks going in no time flat, and it looks real too.

 

The mind should never be underestimated, it is a very strong thing. We can "play pretend" much better as adults then we ever could as kids, so much so, we even convince "ourselves" it is genuine.

 

The reason for the varied responses on what the holy spirit feels like, you will see a common theme most of the time, it's not always different. The reason is, they are manifesting the "feeling" based on their interpretation of how it "ought" to feel. They also try to relate to the feelings they see when others are "overcome" with it (like tongues) and they manifest the feeling in a manner they "recognize".

 

After all, how would they even "know" it to be the holy spook if they had no point of reference? The point if reference is their interpretation of how it "should feel" only.

[insanezenmistress]

hum, Swim.

 

you did fine simplifying it and i understand your point well. Just does not seem to settle with me well because i know these delusions and energies and "manifestations" can be used as tools, if one is so inclinde. But i am not saying that they must.

 

perhaps i want to belive in some of the mystial and not settle on a world without my cartoons. But at the same time in achieving any of theses delusions on my own i have noticed them to be a wild unfocused mental energy. That had to be tamed and directed with my conscious mind. I found it was *not* an outside ghosty but an inner being, it was/is myself.

 

But i am not trying to argue form that perspective. You ahve i think obliterated my perspective as per the ways i am trying to discuss it.

 

 

And i also think you simplify the acts of conscious mind as anytime something cool or spiritaul happens, it MUST be delusion ESP if i have any desire to proove it to another or belive it was just for me to enjoy. Why not jsut let it be something holy? Why wittle it down to a course grey blanket called "delusion only, no other understanding, dont even go there." ??

[SWIM]

And i also think you simplify the acts of conscious mind as anytime something cool or spiritaul happens, it MUST be delusion ESP if i have any desire to proove it to another or belive it was just for me to enjoy. Why not jsut let it be something holy? Why wittle it down to a course grey blanket called "delusion only, no other understanding, dont even go there." ??

 

 

Not everything, of course, is delusion. Much of it is based in psychology. Some is just plain "unexplained" but, unexplained does not equate to "unexplainable". For example, in my lifetime I have in my baggage of memories three ghost stories, and one telepathic experience. Yet I am an atheist.

 

Why? Well, life the universe and everything is most likely too complex to be fully understood at our level of evolution. It is like a puppy in a lab, sitting on a floor looking up at the equations on a scientist's chalk board. The puppy finds it fascinating yes, but we both know it's brain is not capable of understanding it.

 

"Holy" is a manmade concept. It is not a logical conclusion, in fact it is a no brainer conclusion. It is too dismissive. Gawd did it yeah! Good, problem solved, now I can think of other things. People seem to have an inner need to have "all the answers". But it's not possible, so we fill in the gaps. A rational person fills in these gaps with theories and ideas, whereas a "lazy" thinker will fill these gaps with pre-written dogma and concepts. There is no "let something be holy, just for the sake of a convenient answer". It's only lazy and irresponsible use of your mental energies.

[insanezenmistress]

yes i agree. And that expresses it. There are things we dont understand and dont seem to write off well becasue we know there is room for learning more. Such as i cannot make use of quantim physics which fasinates me because i cant even understand advanced algebra.

 

And you seme to be saying also, that a "god dun it" thinker would take the equasions of physics and without understanding become dogmatic abotu their truthfullnes. And a seeker of understanding kind of thikner would look for conscts to bridge the gaps of his understanding.

 

In a spiritaul sence i look for bridges and comunications. And yes i agree it is psychology, but i am not willign to be so quick as to call all weirdness a bad kind of psychology. i think humans are more complicated than that. We have frontal lobes we should udnerstand their function rather that cut them out because we get the creeps.

 

So so far with out Darth's input ont he topic of the holy ghosty we have come to this.

 

Swim says that he can see a simularity sometimes simple becasue they are discribing human psychological happenings.

 

I tried to present some kind of spiritaul science that some people belive does help them organise and understand and use the energies of those mental states.

 

I agree with there being both an unknown psychological or scientific constituant to a persons expericnes of the holy thing.

 

I agree the holy thing is a conception yet if i had better words i would try to liken the true holy thing with the higesht human ideals and then try to suggest that our fault and point of delusional entry is when we try to make a dogma or personal revelation into a religion.

[florduh]

I find it interesting that there are much more consistent descriptions of space aliens than of the Holy Spirit.

[DarthOkkata]

I find it interesting that there are much more consistent descriptions of space aliens than of the Holy Spirit.

 

This is a good way to put my point. Thanks.

 

Sure, people use words and descriptions from the incredibly large list of 'side effects and symptoms'. I'm sure the list can be expanded to include more examples and variations. There are a limited number of positive emotions, imagined side effects, and 'appropriate' descriptive terms to go about.

 

My point is, unless specifically told, or 'given' information beforehand, the faithful will still give you a completely different list than the next faithful asked.

 

Sure, two or three might use the word 'tingly' or 'warm', but the rest of their lists will likely be completely dissimilar if they aren't coached beforehand. Even then, only the parts the group remembers will remain consistent. The words 'cool' and 'refreshing' might pop up in five or six different list of twenty to thirty descriptive terms, but the rest of the lists will be contradictory, different, and made up of dissimilar ideas. The only real similarity you get is 'positive'. It's always a 'good' thing, even if it gives them seizures and makes them foam at the mouth.

 

Physical reactions vary as well, even within congregations.

 

I admit that you might find one or two points of similarity in two or three different lists, but the evidence I've seen says they won't be the same two points over several lists.

 

Once again, that points to being made up. Spiritualism in any form just seems flaky and unsubstantiated to me really.