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How Sexist Was Your Church?


Guest Zenobia

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Guest Zenobia

The church I went to was extremely sexist. The basic view was that MEN were in charge and MEN made all the decisions. Women obeyed and if they didn't, a man could hit a woman and that was OK. Abuse was not seen as justifiable reason for a woman to divorce her husband. The only justifiable reason for divorce was adultery.

 

Women were taught to mold themselves around their man and help him advance in his career, while giving up any dreams or independent desires they might have had for their own lives. It was prefered that women not work, but be stay-at-home mothers. However, because of the tough economy (and because members tithed 30% of what little income they made to church) women were allowed to hold jobs - provided they didn't try to have a "career" that would compete with their husbands, and provided they could continue to do their "wifely duties" such as cleaning the house, cooking for their husband and children, and having sex whenever the man wanted.

 

Male ministers frequently used their wives as "examples" in their sermons. I always hated those kinds of sermons. I felt so embarassed for the poor wife, who was sitting right there in church while her husband exposed all her faults before the congregation. I hoped that whoever I married wouldn't treat me like that, but the longer I was in the church the more I realized just how men hated and looked down on women.

 

When I left the church, even though I was always a strong woman and had always, deep down, hated the idea of men having control over me just because of my gender, I still found many sexist ideas had taken up residence in my mind. For example, the man should buy dinner. Granted, I worked hard to ferret out every type of sexist idea that had taken root. I went so far the other way that I refused to let men buy dinner even when they wanted to. I always insisted on dutch-treating even when the man made a six-figure income and I was still earning slightly above minimum wage as an entry-level TV reporter.

 

As a reporter I encountered sexism at every turn. There were still lots of News Directors who thought that "broads" should stay out of "broadcasting." Women had to maintain perfect figures and look like models, while male reporters and anchors were often overweight and butt-ugly. Men got the more serious stories and women were given "features" to cover. To cover hard news I had to really enterprise and dig up my own stories wheras the assignment desk would just hand over the cops and courts beat to male reporters.

 

I started to feel sick when I watched TV shows that I had always liked before, and noticed how sexist they really were for the first time. The original Battlestar Galactica, from 1979, for example, had always been my favorite show as a kid. But watching it as an adult was a different experience. The men did all the "important" things like fighting cylons and landing on unexplored planets. Women were mostly teachers, or nurses, etc.

 

Society has slowly been moving toward equality, but even now it seems firmly bound to sexist Christian ideals - such as "men should be in charge" etc. A lot of this country's sexism has been in the media spotlight during the Hillary Clinton campaign. Just watch MSNBC's Chris Mathews if you want an example of sexist media coverage. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...8011702828.html

 

I finally got out of TV News in my late 30's, since I could no longer compete with 20-somethings who looked like Pamela Anderson but had no head for news. The ethics of this upset me deeply.

 

Today I am married and we have what I would consider an equal partnership. We both work, we both make decisions together and reach compromises when we don't really agree. It isn't easy, but we do our best. When I first met my husband I was making about twice what he was, but I loved him for who he was not what he made. Now he makes twice what I do, since I am no longer the "career woman" I was. We both have our ups and downs and we share everything. It isn't perfect, but its better than some church marriage would have been!!!!! I can't imagine being married to one of those up-tight church boys. I'd have killed myself years ago, I'm sure.

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In my church, the view was that men and women were pretty much equal. I've carried this view with me -- that men and women need to work to together and have equal say in decisions. I might have gotten that from my parents more than from my church, though. My old church has a new priest now, and I get the impression (from my parents' emails) that he views women as the weaker sex. It'll be interesting to see what the very liberal congregation makes of that... Probably just ignore it. My churchmates always were good at that.

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The "submit to your husband" bit was given lip service but spun around and not practiced any more than it would be in the rest of the general American society.

 

Also, the senior pastor wrote his Master's thesis on high-ranking women in the early church, and had been trying to amend the AoG rules regarding women in pastoral positions. He raised both his daughters to be feminists, in fact.

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Not considered superior but they sure as hell had more power- the only thing the women could run were the sunday school and youth group- the big old church itself was all men, except for the deconess position of course (I was raised Presbyterian). Who didn't do much other than say who'd be arranging flowers that week :/

 

Basically now I think men and women should make decisions together.

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I tended several different churches while growing up, which pretty much covered the whole Christian spectrum women=meat to women are equals. However, women were almost always secondary. They were considered weak, emotional beings who needed to repent and make up for causing the downfall of mankind and the crucifixion of Jesus. The few years I bought into Christianity were some of the worst of my life. I was constantly feeling guilty for my sex and so I thought for me to be a productive member of society considered the equal of men I would have to out perform them in everything.

 

Although I would like to think men and women could be equals, but I know better then to see our current society this way.

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The Baptist church I was raised in was extremely sexist. Women were created as "help meets" for men. Which means they were to obey men in every respect. I even remember a sermon where it was stated that if the married woman didn't feel like it, the man was always entitled to sex anyway. Essentially, rape is OK so long as the parties are married.

 

All the leadership positions of the church were held by men. Male deacons only and of course the all powerful pastor. It was taught that in the home the man was the spiritual leader. This meant that he was to interpret the Bible rather than his wife.

 

What were women good for? Teaching Sunday School and supporting their husbands in every way, shape and form. Marriage was the only appropriate lifestyle. Sex outside of marriage was a sin, of course. It was also unacceptable for women to work outside the home unless the family was starving.

 

I knew these teachings were wrong at the time, but I think they contributed to my becoming involved in a marriage at age 23 that otherwise I would not have.

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I used to cringe at what an unvarnished asshole the senior pastor at my church/job was. He used to ask question in the bible studies and then wait for men to answer. He would most often expound upon the answers men gave, showing how deep and multi-faceted these men of god were as thinkers (snort... sniggle... hahahahaha). When a WOMAN, however, (ESPECIALLY his own wife) would answer a question, or, dear heavens, ASK a question, especially one that challenged the boss's pat answers to everything, he would put on a stone face and just blow them off with a sentence or two. Women's answers to questions usually just received a grunted 'ohh-kay".

 

I have never been able to be what I should be as a man without a muse... a partner... a fellow traveler to explore the deeper things of relationship with. That's why men and women should be equal as decision-makers, AND women should be adored, if not worshipped, for the awesome and totally baffling and mysterious gifts that they have as women that we could not survive without. My humble opinion, of course.

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Was raised in wives must submit to their husbands mantra.

 

Today I believe to each their own. I don't believe any one gender, race or creed has power over or is better then another.

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I was always taught that women must be submissive to their husbands and that the man was to be the head of the family who made all the decisions. Like Zenobia, I was taught it was a sin for women to divorce because of abuse and the only time it was acceptable for a divorce is if either spouse committed adultery. Women were allowed to have careers, but were not allowed to preach at church over other men or have any sort of active role in the worship service. The only thing they could do at church was teach Sunday School to either other women or little children. I used to not think any of this counted as being sexist because God said it and so it must have been true. Later when I deconverted, I realized how sexist and unacceptable this behavior was and I was appalled that I ever could have thought such things about women.

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Guest Zenobia

Wow... it blows my mind to hear all of your stories. So many different churches with the same patriarchial, sexist ideals. All the preachers must have been enamored with Paul's writings... I know our Church loved quoting him with the whole, "wives should submit to their husbands, calling him LORD."

 

I read that in the Mormon Church (any ex-Mormons here?) only men could "intercede" with Jesus and that women had to ask their husbands to "intercede" for them. Wow, so Jebus is a cheuvanist also?

 

Funny how the Xtian faith will do anything it can to get rid of the "goddess" image, yet it keeps resurfacing over and over... like the Virgin Mary. People are drawn to her because they need a feminine diety and deep down maybe they still believe women are magical and powerful? Just a theory.

 

Why else would Xtianity and Islam do everything they can to shut women up? What are they afraid of? Women finally being in charge again as we were in neolithic times? Hmmm....

 

Has anyone here read "The Crone"?

 

http://www.amazon.com/Crone-Woman-Age-Wisd...1937&sr=1-1

 

The author makes some very interesting observations about patriarchial religions and their origins. If you can get past some of the feminist vitriol, she really packs the book with a lot of references. This book changed my life and I highly recommend it to any woman who was raised in one of these sexist, patriarchal olgarchies!

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The church where I was saved had the men rule over women kind of thing.

 

Though, I have to say that the last church I was in wasn't like that even though they were really fundie. The pastor's very much loved and adored their wives. The pastor's would often help in the nursery taking care of the babies. They helped their wives with housework, taking care of the kids, and once a month the men in the church (not hired sitters) would watch all the kids when the women had their "Women's Fellowship". When a pastor did use his wife as an example during a sermon, which was often, it was more along the lines of "My wife is a wonderful, beautiful woman and I have no idea why she's with me."

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LOL...Women were not allowed to preach...unless there was a Fragrant Oil Conference and then Rita Springer and whoever was joining her was allowed to preach. Once in awhile females did preach but not a full sermon. I did not realize just how sexist it was until my husband and I lead our first Life Group. I busted my ASS studying and writing our first lesson because my husband was not into it like I was. Anyway, two days afterward our leader called us up for a "meeting". When we got there, the jerk-off husband told me that he went to the pastor and other elders because he was upset that I taught! Apparently they agreed that unless it was a females only Life Group that women were not allowed to teach lessons for Life Group. WTF? And then, to add insult to injury, I was told that I could prepare and write the lesson but not give them, my DH had to. The thing was...everyone in that Life Group, including our leader's wife, told me they had gotten more out of my lesson than ANY given by the husband who lead the group over all. He was/is a self-absorbed asshole, whose poor wife is more like a trophy than a partner. We quit after the second week and stopped going to his Life Group altogether. I LOATHE that I have to see his smug face on almost any street because it is plastered everywhere due to his real estate business...GRRRRRR.

 

And yes, we received teachings about women being "submissive"...Paul was quoted quite often.

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Catholicism believes in 'complementarity' (it wasn't in the poll so I didn't answer it). Complementarity is weasel-word sexism. Men and women are supposedly 100% equal, but are just soooo different from each other that men are really only good at X and women are only really good at Y, and that God made it that way such that women and men have to work together to 'complement' each other. It sounds egalitarian, but conveniently the things that God made women best at just happen to be the same sexist roles that women have always been saddled with. It's an extremely reductionist (and homophobic--it has been adopted by ex-gay programs as their preferred degaying method) idea that has no room for individual variation in how people might see themselves in relation to their gender or what their actual interests and talents might be. Traditionally, women have had a lot of spiritual power within the Church, but in real life they have been shat upon. As a backlash of this indoctrination, I am now a strong feminist, but I find that changing old attitudes can be pretty tough.

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The church where I was saved had the men rule over women kind of thing.

 

Though, I have to say that the last church I was in wasn't like that even though they were really fundie. The pastor's very much loved and adored their wives. The pastor's would often help in the nursery taking care of the babies. They helped their wives with housework, taking care of the kids, and once a month the men in the church (not hired sitters) would watch all the kids when the women had their "Women's Fellowship". When a pastor did use his wife as an example during a sermon, which was often, it was more along the lines of "My wife is a wonderful, beautiful woman and I have no idea why she's with me."

 

I find that to be a kind of sexism too. Women are people, not perfect statues on pedestals!

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My church had a bit of a sexist mentality, though they never came right out and said it. The spoken word was, "men and women are equal in the sight of god", but the action was, all the deacons, ushers, anyone with actual authority.....were all men.

 

And my dad was called once to be invited to the Father Son Breakfast, he asked if he could bring his daughter (me). They said "Uuuuuh. It's for Father's and Sons, so no." My dad was like, "Then what is the point of inviting me? I can stay home and eat breakfast with my wife and daughter." (Yeah...my Dad fucking rocks).

 

My family actively refused to participate in blatantly sexist church BS like that. There was the Women's Retreat and the Men's Advance. Same fucking activity...like weekend camp for adults but look at what they were called! Advance...Retreat...fuck you! We did not participate. There were other things...The Ladies Spaghetti Feed...what? Men can't cook? My best friend flew in the face of that one. The only guy standing behind a pot of pasta at the potluck tables. I was so damn proud of him!

 

And them there was the weekend of the church roof fix. My Dad was called to do electrical stuff...he brought me along. So I was hauling old shingles and old insulation off to the dumpster with the sons who had been volunteered. Only girl there, did just as much work as the rest of them.

 

There were some official changes while I was there. We pushed and got some women as ushers (I ushed a time or two). We got some ladies in authority in the music department, and in the finance department (my own Mom on that score).

 

But eventually, we got tired of the quiet grumbling, and the not-really-accepted-unless-you're-doing-free-work-for-church treatment, and my family left the church together.

 

When asked, my mother says we are "still looking" for a church we can all attend together as a family. What she doesn't say is "BTW....we aren't looking, and my daughter doesn't believe in religion anymore at all,"

 

I know that's a lot of babble...but in short, I can't really answer the poll as my parents took responsibility for teaching me appropriate gender views. They did not leave my education up to the schools, and they damn sure didn't leave it to church. I'm sure glad too.

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Guest Zenobia

Jebus... what a bunch of fuckin' bullshit. It pisses me off that women have to endure so much crap at the hands of ignorant assholes!!!!

 

 

Catholicism believes in 'complementarity' (it wasn't in the poll so I didn't answer it). Complementarity is weasel-word sexism. Men and women are supposedly 100% equal, but are just soooo different from each other that men are really only good at X and women are only really good at Y, and that God made it that way such that women and men have to work together to 'complement' each other.

 

Gradstu...

 

Yeah our church kind of had the same belief, except it was more like "everyone is an important part of the body of christ. Some are the eyes, some are the nose, some are the butt-hole..." and for some reason it seemed that women were always the butt-hole!

 

But supposedly we were "equal" in the sense that we both had "roles" god wanted us to play... and we were supposed to stick to those roles no matter how much we detested them or how little they "fit" with who we were inside... Note that the men had no problem getting to be the "eyes" or "nose", naturally... but women chafed at being the "asshole..." and we were gently "admonished" by ministers who told us that we were "just as important" as the men even though we didn't get as much recognition. It's vanity to want recognition, anyway, and we should just be content knowing that god values what we do... "so be a good little girl and go mop the floor, that's a sweetie..."

 

One of the most popular songs at church weddings was "Wind Benieth My Wings" only it was always a man who sang it, thanking his future wife in advance for doing all the grunt-work and shit-shoveling while he got to strut around in a suit and tie and feel all important.

 

And then, to add insult to injury, I was told that I could prepare and write the lesson but not give them, my DH had to. The thing was...everyone in that Life Group, including our leader's wife, told me they had gotten more out of my lesson than ANY given by the husband who lead the group over all. He was/is a self-absorbed asshole, whose poor wife is more like a trophy than a partner.

 

Jubilant... I feel your pain :( Women were not allowed to preach or teach in our church either. Hell, I worked as a scriptwriter for our church's televangelistic TV show... behind the scenes of course... I wrote the scripts, then the minister who ended up "presenting" it on TV would do a couple quick edits (usually stupid edits that made the writing clumsy and pedantic) and claim it as his. I didn't get any credit, other than my paycheck (at least I was paid....) for writing the script. I even quoted scriptures and everything. Wow, a women could do anything as long as no one "saw" her...

 

And my dad was called once to be invited to the Father Son Breakfast, he asked if he could bring his daughter (me). They said "Uuuuuh. It's for Father's and Sons, so no." My dad was like, "Then what is the point of inviting me? I can stay home and eat breakfast with my wife and daughter." (Yeah...my Dad fucking rocks).

 

White Raven, your dad sounds totally kewl. And your parents sound like they could think for themselves! Good for them!! And good for you. People in our church, by and large, couldn't pick out a freakin' car without asking a minister what kind of car would be most "appropriate" for a member of god's one-true-Church ®... people even had to read church guidelines for having SEX. And you guessed it, the missionary position was the only one ministers approved. Women could certainly never be on top!!! And oral sex??? *gasp* absolutely not allowed...

 

Jebus its a wonder some of us are still sane!

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I haven't read the posts yet but here is how I voted: Men and women are equal in the eyes of God, for how my church was. And I think men and women should make decisions together and compromise until both are satisfied.

 

I wasn't sure how I should vote for how my church was. Men held the public positions of authority such as preacher and bishop but everyone knew--or suspected--that it was certain women (wives) who ran the show. I also know that not all families were the same. In some couples it was the man who made decisions and in other couples it was the woman who made the decisions. I don't think the church had a rule about it. However, it becomes evident when one talks to one partner to arrange something and he/she says "I have to talk to my wife/husband before I can give you an answer." Perhaps another time one happens to talk to the other person and there is no mention of discussing it with the wife/husband. Over time, it becomes evident who makes the decisions in that family. Or that they always discuss things. Or that they know each other so well that no discussion is required. Or one of the other miriad of possibilities.

 

Marriage was for life. This meant you found a way to live with your spouse that caused you the least grief. If you were the bishop and made a decision that was going to rankle your wife, who happened to be the world's sweetest lady ever born (she was), you would want to discuss the final decision with her before announcing it over the pulpit. No matter how much flak the rest of the congregation--or even the other ministry--brought against you, you didn't have to sleep with them.

 

He never confessed to asking her and she never denied to having this kind of influence. Officially, final decisions were made at church meetings but unofficially it was discovered that this did not happen. This was very common and wide-spread knowledge. Or rumour. I never knew for sure if this was fact or just rumor. I still don't know. It was rumor that, to my knowledge, was never refuted.

 

I don't think a vote was taken; only discussion with the aim to reach a consensus.

 

In the agricultural setting of my church, it made much sense to divide labour and decision-making along the lines of house and barn. The wife was responsible for the house, yard, and garden. The husband was responsible for the barn and fields. Both were responsible for the children but different elements of their lives; this differed from family to family.

 

I'm single and cannot quite imagine sharing my life and space with another person. I did share my home with a sister for fifteen years. We divided responsibilities and labour, and discussed issues that concerned us both. We had maiden aunts who shared a home. They, and we, felt that in this there was much in common with married people.

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I read the posts now. There is practically no way to compare the Old Order Mennonite or Amish culture/society and way of doing church with what people here described. The way I see it is that the Amish-Mennonite horse and buggy culture retains a way of life that was normal for European society several centuries ago. What the rest of you described is a society that has moved away from that "idealized golden age of the past," of which people think the basic structures such as patriarchy should still be retained. However, Western society has moved so very far from that model that it simply no longer fits.

 

Because the horse and buggy people have renounced "the world" at the level of material worldly goods beginning with the automobile, and in many cases electricity, and because they forbid divorce, they of necessity develop a situation that is very different from that of surrounding society. As a way of life, men had the visible positions of authority but what woman wanted it??? Women had their own positions of power wielded in their own way. Women were the chefs supreme. No matter how much a man might love working with food he NEVER had the opportunity to serve his guests--NEVER. Chances are he never had the opportunity to develop his talent.

 

As an example of patriarchy affecting men's talents, we have one male member on here who has mentioned abuse because of patriachy's idea of man's work. Knitterman. He LOVES knitting, etc. Sorry if you're reading this and I've got the details wrong, knitterman. I never learned enough about knitting and crotchetting to really understand what it is you do. I cannot believe that he is the only man who has suffered because of this problem.

 

However, I as a woman desperately wanted to be a school teacher. That was considered an honourable woman's position but I was not ever hired, due to some prejudiced ideas held by the community. They thought I was borderline retarded and incapable of the responsibility. The fact that I was able to step into a family home and manage large families with children of all ages when the mother went to the hospital to have a sixth or tenth child somehow or other did not count. That was simply the one of the by-products of close-knit communities where everyone knows everyone from birth to death, and had nothing to do with patriarchy.

 

I'm thinking that the evangelical fundamentalist churches many people here came from probably try to hang onto the remnants of what the Amish-Mennonite society still has as a way of life. And that it becomes sexist in the fundamentalist setting whereas in the horse and buggy setting it might not be because it's part of a way of life. In my family there were many more women than men so the girls and women got to do a lot of things that really were "men's" tasks. We helped in the fields and barn. In our community, there were a lot more women in my generation than men. Since marrying outside the church was strictly prohibited this meant that many women had to go into business of some sort or other. This opened the way for many women to own their homes and do "men's work" as in running small farms. My sister and I had our own little set-up.

 

We had quite an opportunity there to experiment with our own talents. There was a table saw and used lumber and some land that we were allowed to use as we wanted. So we built some things and used the land in various creative ways. It was an old farm on the edge of town that a wealthy church family had bought with the plan to sell to developers sometime down the road, so we could rent it really cheap. Due to economic slumps it was quite a bit further "down the road" than originally expected and we lived there the best part of twenty years. I was there fifteen years and my sister stayed on for another year or two after I moved to town to be closer to school.

 

I had lived with two elderly ladies before we had that place. And I learned how to arrange things so that women could handle it--for example, not to make items so heavy that a man's strength would be needed to lift or move everyday items. Cleaning out and maintaining the horse barn was up to us. On the rare occassion that something needed doing that we couldn't do we informed the owner.

 

At one point I did encounter sexism. I wanted to learn how to fill out income tax (I know it's crazy because my brain can't cope with numbers but I wasn't aware of this at the time) and I asked a man who worked in the field how to get the necessary training to do this. He informed me that this was not an appropriate job for a woman. I couldn't quite get my head around that idea. He was only my age and I could not quite accept that he knew what he was talking about. Both of us were perhaps 30 or younger--not exactly mature community advisors. I don't think he did because some years later my dad's cousin, also an unmarried woman, got into that kind of work.

 

So there's a long rambling post. Good thing about posts is you can always skip them. Writing it out helps me make sense of things. With no one else here of similar background I guess I have to talk to myself. Sorry bout that but more people just don't leave "all the way."

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As stated my deconversion started with a major personal trauma and one that affected every aspect of my life including and especially the idea that men are superior to women, it was ok for a man to hit a woman if she 'deserved' it. My brothers were encouraged to hit me, particularly the eldest since he was Number One Son and if I didn't do what he said it was a brawl. I didn't take to being hit very well after the event. Before that.. I was daddys little girl and if I got hit by him or them I obviously did something to deserve it.

Now I know it for bullying and child abuse it was.

Southern baptists are not known for their tolerance of radical ideas like women being people too. What else would you expect from a group that tried to find Babble passages supporting slavery? They are homophobic, intolerant, sexist and bigots. My own father still had the audacity to tell my once husband "If you want to keep her in line sometime you have to slap her around" and for some unknown reason, in this modern age, this is still an unwritten rule of that faith.

Losers.

That kind of crap is why your daughters grow up to be cops.. so we can lock your asses up.

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Guest Zenobia

R.S. Martin...

 

Wow, I had no idea you were menonite-amish. That blows my mind, I have never talked with someone from that community before. There is a small menonite community near us but they are "closed" to outsiders. I see them in town from time to time, the women wear those funny lace caps. I'm really not fond of any christian organization - but I will say this, the menonite-amish at least keep it to themselves and do their best to stick to what they believe. That's the closest I will ever get to saying I "respect" any xtian group of people because I really, truly don't care for xtianity in any of its myriad forms.

 

What made you leave that community? That must have been incredibly tough - since it is such a closed community I imagine you didn't know many people "outside" so you must have been scared. What was the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak? Why did you move out? You sound really courageous to me....

 

BTW I love Weird Al Yankovik's song "Amish Paradise" LOL :) Have you heard it?

 

Jincks...

 

I don't have any words for how that makes me feel. I freakin' hate what they did to you. And its amazing how strong and capable you are, after all you've been through. You go, Girrl...

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people even had to read church guidelines for having SEX. And you guessed it, the missionary position was the only one ministers approved. Women could certainly never be on top!!! And oral sex??? *gasp* absolutely not allowed...

 

Jebus its a wonder some of us are still sane!

 

That takes me back, I remember one of our pastors having a sex talk with us youths. I remember being very confused when we were told we were not to suck on breasts even when married! I mean come on, at that boob-crazed moment in my life, I was looking forward to that as much as anything! Yeah, and no oral sex, strange positions, etc. I cared less about that. We never talked about anal sex strangely enough...

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Guest Zenobia

Babysealclubber. I hope you don't really club baby seals....!!! I'm assuming there is some metaphoric meaning to your user name, lol.

 

Yeah, our church was hardcore about sex. Ironic, since the televangelistic founder of the church was rumored to have had incest with his daughter. And his son was sued for groping a massage therapist.

 

It seems like the more restrictive church's are about sex - the more perverted some of their members are.

 

A couple case in points:

 

1. In my church, I clearly remember a man telling me he made his daughter watch him and his wife have sex in order to "educate" her. Even then in the church I knew it was child abuse and I totally went off on him. I reported him to a minister, but nothing ever happened to him as far as I know...

 

2. A Mormon guy I used to work with. Really effeminate looking, my gay-dar would go ballistic whenever he walked in the room. Yet he was extremely homophobic. Years later he was arrested for molesting his best friend's son.

 

3. A minister in my church. Very staunch member, high up in the church headquarters. Was forcing his secretary (my best friend at the time) to give him blow jobs. Years later, she admitted this had happened to her husband. He got angry at her and divorced her. He couldn't see that she was abused by the minister, he was just angry that she cheated on him. He thought she should have said "no" but we all know thats easier said than done. Who knows what her boss threatened to get her to do it.

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The LDS church taught that Wifes were to evolve into Godesses, Heavenly Mothers who was to birth spirit children. But neverless the Heavenly Mother and Heavenly Father were equal co creators.... so equal that HM wasn't talked about at all! not prayed to, not acknowledged! because HF loves her so much, that he rather we curse him instead, so that's why Heavenly Mother takes a backseat.

 

Women are so revered in the LDS church, that all the hard work and responsibility and powers of the Priesthood (same authority as God), were given to men, because Women had the powers of life (birthing, teaching and healing), that men had to have SOMETHING..... so women spirits gracefully let men lord over them. the LDS church is so equal with generlogical value that women can't enter heaven, unless they're married! and the husband has done the sealing rituals for them. If not, they become servant spirits in heaven.

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Jincks...

 

I don't have any words for how that makes me feel. I freakin' hate what they did to you. And its amazing how strong and capable you are, after all you've been through. You go, Girrl...

 

I never really knew until later in life that I should have been messed up :grin: .. seriously all they, the 'good' xtians, that abused me ever did in the end was wake up that part of me that wanted to fight, it never laid down again. I went from abuse-me-please daddys little angel to Angry-fighting-in-your-face touch me and die! Which is why I was so successful in uniform. Pretty faces didn't pull any wool over my eyes; I know "I'm a god fearing xtian man" doesn't impress me at all..in my world (behind bars) you are a maggot using religion to manipulate your situation. Outside you don't go to church like a good little programmed bot because it doesn't do anything for you and there is no advantage to you in it..

 

Religion has long been and excuse for unacceptable behaviors. People will use it to act unethically often and some will pretend 'god' gives them a right to behave illegally. It doesn't, only their own desire to break the law and get away with it does, religion is just and excuse.

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Guest Zenobia

Jincks... I agree with you Girlfriend...

 

MesaGman... yeah, um... thats equality, right...and if you believe that I have some invisible land on the moon for sale!

 

Has anyone noticed the poll results lately? Either we have some incredibly sexist people in this form or someone's playing a joke :)

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