How Sexist Was Your Church?

[Guest InvisiblePinkUnicornPony]

The church I was in was led by a female pastor and at times would preach that men and women were equal, but in certain sermons she would say passive agressive comments about men. The majority of her staff is female for sure.

[Jincks013]

Sounds like the woman had some serious anger issues to deal with. I am all for women doing the same things men do but reverse sexism is still sexism.

[Guest Myers]

I was banned from a Christian forum for suggesting God was a woman. I actually made a serious point, so they deleted the forum and kicked me out shortly after. To add insult to injury, one of the members posted another thread saying what a stupid remark I had made, although he didn't use my name. The other members agreed, even the women...

[Guest eejay]

Since I was originally catholic, I'll start there. The RCC is known for it's boys club views. Can a woman run a diocese? No. Can a woman hold a mass? No. Can a woman become a preist? Hell no! Though they try to present the idea that women are more than men's servants, it's not that hard to read between the lines. Nuns were primarily care givers and teachers. Not spiritual leaders. Not to mention the vows of poverty etc. How any woman could submit to that lifestyle is beyond me. It is really a sad waste. Apparently though, they believe their sacrifice willl make them more acceptable to god. Since I have also been involved in some of the protestant denominations I think it's fair to say that there isn't much fairness that goes on for women there either. There are however some female preachers, like Joyce Meyer, so I wonder how x-tianity in general looks upon that. Paganism is probably the most comfortable religion for women, because it is believed there are a male and female diety.

[MathGeek]

Since I was originally catholic, I'll start there. The RCC is known for it's boys club views. Can a woman run a diocese? No. Can a woman hold a mass? No. Can a woman become a preist? Hell no! Though they try to present the idea that women are more than men's servants, it's not that hard to read between the lines. Nuns were primarily care givers and teachers. Not spiritual leaders. Not to mention the vows of poverty etc. How any woman could submit to that lifestyle is beyond me. It is really a sad waste. Apparently though, they believe their sacrifice willl make them more acceptable to god.

 

In a way then, girls who are altar servers now and even when I was in high school were allowed to do so because they were just prepping themselves for taking vows of holy orders.

[Guest Zenobia]

While it's true that some xtian churches are becoming more "progressive" and allowing women to be ministers, etc... they are still not the mainstream. That's because the babble makes it clear that women are inferior to men. So the mainstream churches are just sticking to their babble... Some stick to it a bit more than others, true, and some seem to hold Paul's misogynist writings in especially high regard...

 

The church I grew up in allowed women certain "privilages" such as being "in charge" of women's events, etc... but women were never given any authority in the church at all. Women's "authority" was always passive aggressive and manipulative - since we had no "real" power, we had to try to manipulate men into doing things for us. *Shudder* I was not very good at manipulation, since I am a blunt what-you-see-is-what-you-get type of person... so I never belonged in our church. The other women hated me because they were full of pretense. And the men hated me because, apparently, being around me made their dicks go limp!

[Mysteries' Child]

I remember the Falwellites paying lip service to the whole "different parts of the body of Christ" schtick.

 

I think I remember that it was not OK to abuse a woman-- but this was according to a 'church definition' of 'to abuse,' which I think must have run something along the lines of, 'to administer regularly scheduled maintainance beatings.'

 

Women were not to work outside the home/church for any reason. I remember my best friend's mom being very sternly criticized, first for getting her tubes tied after the birth of the fourth child they really couldn't afford to feed, then for going to nursing school after #4 entered kindergarten.

 

It blew my mind how the preacher--who was demanding tithe of what little they had even though they couldn't keep the utilities on-- could criticize her. I certainly couldn't blame her for being tired of having neighborhood kids steal food out of her kitchen since she had no way to lock her doors, or of heating the house by burning trash in a coal furnace, or of running a garden hose inside to fill up the bathtub and flush the toilet 'cause the only running water was the faucet outside.

 

I can find fault with a lot of things they did in raising their kids-- starting with subscribing to the preacher's "spare not the rod" attitude toward discipline, which, in addition to being abusive, was pretty heavily biased against little girls. One thing I have to give them immense credit for, though-- as little as they had (and I realize now that it was damn little), they were generous with it. I was a right spoiled little brat, yet I never remember them complaining about setting a place for me at the table even at a time when 'dump biscuits and flour gravy' were all there was to set on it.

 

I give away pocket change and donate to commodities drives, but looking back on how they treated me, I don't think I could be half as generous if I had twice as much.

 

In other thoughts...

 

I really didn't realize that I held a lot of misogynistic ideas until pretty recently. I paid pretty good mental lip service, if you will, to feminism. I was even outrightly combative about standing up for my rights.

 

But I realized a couple of years ago that I was doing that because, once you scratched the surface, I saw the 'place' of 'a good woman' as being utterly subserviant. Like, to a point that, other than not taking being beaten meekly, Warren Jeffs probably would have been pretty happy with me.

 

I don't think I got it from church, though. At least, not entirely. I think I got a lot of it from my environment. All the married women I knew had, in effect, no self. No hobbies, no interests, no friends, no personal time. Their lives revolved around tending their husbands, their houses, and their children.

 

I think some of that paradigm might have originated with church-- my family was Catholic/ex-Catholic-to-Baptist on one side and lapsed-Methodist-to-disfellowshipped-Church-of-Christ on the other-- but, by the time I was born and raised, it was more of a hillbilly cultural kind of thing.

 

Hell-- my aunt and my stepmother are probably the two most isolated women I know. My aunt would probably describe herself as Agnostic, my stepmother was the (illegitimate) child of the Baptist circuit preacher's daughter, refuses to call herself Christian, and strikes me as some kind of hedge witch. Religion's woven up with all of it, I think, but by the time it filtered down to me, it was some fucked-up hillbilly cultural thing.

 

Hazel Dickens could have made an album or two off of meeting my family. Come to think of it, "Custom Made Woman Blues" is about my family, in a generic dime-a-dozen kind of way.

 

I resent the fact that the conflict between superficially rejecting and deep-down adopting those attitudes came pretty close to wrecking my marriage. I resent the fact that we're still cleaning up the mess from it.

 

But then...

 

...my husband was raised in a climate that was the polar opposite...

 

...or, I suppose, identical...

 

...if you put the man in the woman's place.

 

In my funny little worldview, maybe we were made for each other, both screwed up in such a way that we would see the flaws of our upbringing in each other, and in helping ourselves we would help each other and vice versa.

 

Or maybe scars just attract scars.

 

Or maybe it's all fucking convoluted and neither of us know what's going on yet. I dunno.

 

I do know that I'm going to land on my stepmom like a ton of bricks this summer when I go back to visit and she goes off on me for going to visit my best friend (who happens to, allegedly anyway, have a penis).

 

In front of my daughter, no less. She's starting to pick up on the whole gender role thing; I am not going to have either my daughter or my son internalize the load of shit I did.

[Guest Zenobia]

I remember the Falwellites paying lip service to the whole "different parts of the body of Christ" schtick.

I hate that schtick most of all...

 

I think I remember that it was not OK to abuse a woman-- but this was according to a 'church definition' of 'to abuse,' which I think must have run something along the lines of, 'to administer regularly scheduled maintainance beatings.'

 

Yeah, I remember once a man telling me he thought the only time it was "OK" to beat a woman was to slap her face when she was "hysterical." At the time I thought, wow this guy is really progressive. Shit...

 

I really didn't realize that I held a lot of misogynistic ideas until pretty recently. I paid pretty good mental lip service, if you will, to feminism. I was even outrightly combative about standing up for my rights.

 

Yeah, I came to the same place about 10 years ago. It struck me like a ton of bricks, watching reruns of old TV shows that I used to think were so cool, and suddenly realizing just how SEXIST they were! I started analyzing all of my social conceptions/perceptions/etc and finding little slivers of sexism hiding all over the place. Pulling them out was painful, and some are buried so deep I may never get to them. It's really a life-long process. I don't have any kids, but hopefully if I did I'd raise them to be less male-identified than I was. It isn't easy because western society is largely patriarchial whether you are religious or not. Just look at TV... the women are all sexy and young - as if that is the only kind of woman that is acceptable. We recognize the Maiden, and to some extent the Mother.. but we ignore (fear?) the Crone.

[Jincks013]

I was fortunate when in my early teens I moved in with my mother who is a very liberal/ feminist/ hippy and as I grew pointed out different manipulation games played including the good ole stand over tactic; often attempted on me because I am all of 5ft tall (Zen can tell you; that is a bad bad idea with me!) and how to counter such actions and attempts.

[Vendredie]

My church was pretty sexist. There were all kinds of women in there, but the "in crowd" women never took jobs outside the home or church. Unless they worked at other churches or were elementary school teachers. My mom was "friends" with these women, and stuck out like a sore thumb because she was a government contractor. Heaven forbid a woman work for the federal government! The daughters of these women were just like their moms: they wanted to be nurses or teachers or something like that, and always made little craft thingies. I wrote stories/poems (being a writer) and read Harry Potter and Speak while they read Chicken Soup for the Teenage Soul and other Christian/ "teen living" books their mothers had bought. This eventually led to a fallout because the women, who had always respected me before, suddenly thought I was a satanist just because my mother let me read Harry Potter and even bought my Harry Potter stuff for me.

 

The pastor also once told my mom to hang out with more women...

[Guest Zenobia]

This eventually led to a fallout because the women, who had always respected me before, suddenly thought I was a satanist just because my mother let me read Harry Potter and even bought my Harry Potter stuff for me.

 

Oh brother........ this stooooopid "Harry Potter is turning our kids into demon-children" shit... jebus this REALLY waxes my tail! BTW Xtians also hate the Warriors series of childrens books. These are books about cats who "talk" and have their own "religion." Lord knows these evil lil fluffy kitties are filling our children's minds full of all kinds of satanic garbage

 

Below is what Xtians ACTUALLY SAY about the Warriors. Can you freakin believe this??? These are kids' books about TALKING CATS and the Xtians see demons and witches. OHHHH but "Narnia" is OK because Aslan is just a metaphor for Jebus....

 

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live...

 

Edited to add: BTW, this may sound silly, but I read these books to my husband to help him sleep and I haven't seen anything which even comes CLOSE to "demonism" or teaching kids to be "evil." In fact, most of the books are about the value of qualities such as "loyalty" and "honor"... go figure.

[Neon Genesis]

Oh brother........ this stooooopid "Harry Potter is turning our kids into demon-children" shit... jebus this REALLY waxes my tail! BTW Xtians also hate the Warriors series of childrens books. These are books about cats who "talk" and have their own "religion." Lord knows these evil lil fluffy kitties are filling our children's minds full of all kinds of satanic garbage

What makes it all the more ridiculous is that Rowling is a Christian herself, so they're just damning one of their own for no reason, and that if they would actually do their research, they would know the seventh Harry Potter book has plenty of Christian symbolism in it and Harry is just as much of a metaphor for Jesus as Aslan is.

[Guest Myers]

Speaking of Christians being morons... Has anyone else noticed that Satan in The Passion was played by a woman? And that the witch also portrayed Satan in Narnia? And God forbid I suggest that God's a woman. But Satan on the other hand... In conclusion. Mel Gibson must die.

 

As for the Harry Potter bullshit. I find it amusing (and sad) that my neighbor won't let his daughter read Harry Potter, but he doesn't mind if she gets piss drunk every weekend and occasionally date-raped by a handful of her peers. I have reason to believe she's a boarderline alcoholic and just turned sixteen. But atleast her poor little mind isn't being tormented by those dirty witches! [sarcasm]

[Shion]

Speaking of Christians being morons... Has anyone else noticed that Satan in The Passion was played by a woman? And that the witch also portrayed Satan in Narnia? And God forbid I suggest that God's a woman. But Satan on the other hand... In conclusion. Mel Gibson must die.

 

As for the Harry Potter bullshit. I find it amusing (and sad) that my neighbor won't let his daughter read Harry Potter, but he doesn't mind if she gets piss drunk every weekend and occasionally date-raped by a handful of her peers. I have reason to believe she's a boarderline alcoholic and just turned sixteen. But atleast her poor little mind isn't being tormented by those dirty witches! [sarcasm]

 

This is one of the saddest aspects of Christianity. That the female is always, always dirty and inferior to some degree.

 

Secondly, that they are more fearful about what their children might read then what they may do in replacement of intellectual stimulus, is down right vile and neglectful.

[oddbird1963]

I chose this response: Men and women make their decisions together and must compromise until each is satisfied ,

 

but I think a more realistic response would be : "If the man is better at making decisions, then the man should make the decisions. If the woman can generally make decisions better, then she should make the decisions." Although compromise is a good ideal, nothing will ever happen if you wait until each is satisfied. usually, satisfaction is experienced after the fact and not before. And, if you wait until both are satisfied about the decision, you would probably have to plan everything months in advance and hold tedious negotiations all the time. Realistic? In what world?

 

Just because men and women are equals because there is no god to say who is the greater and who is the lesser of the two does not mean that they are equally good at making decisions. This requires that the two be open with one another about their strengths and weaknesses. So, good luck. It's usually the dominant personality that makes the decisions, whether or not those decisions are good or bad for the couple.

[OpheliaGinger]

I was attended churches that taught that women were inferior and should be subservient to men. As for me now, I'm an amazon that only keeps men around for the sex.

[BeckyJ]

I was attended churches that taught that women were inferior and should be subservient to men. As for me now, I'm an amazon that only keeps men around for the sex.

 

*laughs* I'm not an amazon but yes, men have their uses!! Killing bugs, I mean *blushes* Not what she said!

[RaisedPB]

The people at my church did not think they were sexist, and would be offended if you suggested it; they just thought they were following God's word. But the facts were that women were not allowed to hold leadership positions, were not allowed to speak from the pulpit, were not allowed to lead men in prayer in a public gathering of the church. Years ago most women covered their heads with lace type head coverings or scarves, though many do not these days. I look at it now, and seems so backward and archaic, the people involved there believe it and acccept their "roles" - men and woment.

 

Religion - jeez, how did I believe it all those years?

[hollygolightly]

ex mormon here ... exciting, isn't it. For us it went like this. Men were the heads of the household and head of the church. We generally didn't get a say in anything. If you were a daughter, you were at the mercy of your father's whims and as a wife you are at the mercy of your husband's. The saddest thing about all of this was that so many of my friends (female friends, that is) were so frightened by the prospect of having to make decisions they were eager to marry at very young ages. I think I was one of few women that wasn't married by 19, that didn't go on a mission. Perhaps, of course, that whole no sex until marriage thing figured into the young marriage ages, but then again these girls weren't marrying men that were their age. At the youngest, they would marry a man that has likely gone to college and definitely gone on a mission. So they were generally about 24 or there abouts. It is frowned upon for women to work, and since there is this weird notion that you are to "rescue," or provide bodies for, a predetermined (by god, of course) number of spiritual children, the majority of women were pressed to raise large families, making it all but impossible to work.

 

Then there is church life. Women can hold no positions of power within the church, largely because they cannot hold the priesthood. Interestingly boys get the lower level of the priesthood when they are teenagers so they are pretty much over even their mothers at this point. Patriarchs (sort of the seers ... I shit you not ... of the church), bishops, prophets, all preisthood holders, and all of the members of the quarem of the 12 apostles all have to be men. Women can be sunday school teachers and missionaries, thats about it.

 

One particularly amusing (I can say amusing, now) anecdote about mormon's and sexism as it pertains to the act of sex made me begin to question the whole thing at a young age. I remember when I first entered Young Womens, a class for female teenagers in the church, they were giving a lesson about purity. In this lesson we were basically accosted with all sorts of fear tactics preaching abstinence ... the normal churchy position. Where it got weird though was when they were teaching us how to "behave" around members of the opposite sex. They taught us how to sit, walk, etc. The thing that stuck me as hilarious was that we were to never, under any circumstances to lay on our sides in the presence of a member of the opposite sex (that we weren't married to). To do so would "accentuate the feminine figure." All implications from there out were that we were merely objects of temptation, and that if anything did happen it would be our faults, not the fault of the men involved.

 

I can't tell you the number of times I got into trouble for questioning mormon teachings while I was a member of that church, but I do know that that moment was when I started questioning everything aloud to the class. The entire concept seemed, to me, insulting to both the men and women. Coincidentally, from there out the ward leaders, sunday school teachers sent me directly to the bishops office every time I slipped up even the slightest bit (or any time I had a question). In addition to many "dresscode" violations, I once got sent to the bishop because I was wearing "seductive shoes" ... lol

[PiracyOfTheHead]

When I was at Calvary Chapel there was this subtle, but very recognizable consensus that women were to OBEY THEIR HUSBANDS AS UNTO THE LORD, but thatthe men were to PUT THE WOMAN ONTO A PEDESTAL. What i always saw though, was men who had to ask their wives permission to make decisions, and the husbands got back at the wives by using htem in demeaning anecdotes whenever they had the chance to speak in front of a group or the church.

 

Basically, a lot of bitter, pussy-whipped Chapelites with a power over the women that they were given permission to have, by the women.

 

 

In the Orthodoxy however, it was very old world, the women, most of them were definitely submissive. To be honest though, they all seemed to have very good relatioships, this probably arose from the fact that both sides ultimately believed this arrangement to be divine will and they didnt use it against eachother in a bad way. of course, who knows what was REALLY going on inside these peoples heads and hearts.

 

There were only a couple cases where I saw this arrangement taken too far and the women were nervous wrecks.

 

I think the overall impression that I fight with everyday was the constant reminder that EVE sinned, Calvary was big on mentioning that, but then again, in the Orthodoxy they revere Mary so much as they say "Christ could not have entered the world were it not for Woman"

 

So they also credit the Woman with bringing Salvation and if you know Orthodoxy, they are more into Mary than catholics.

 

I never sensed anything inherently wrong in their customs regarding the husband/wife relationship, just different than mainstream 21st century America.

 

My own personal beliefs are that there has to be a FINAL decision maker in the household, you cant stay stuck with 2 opinions and ever move forward, somebody has to make the call.......... and that should be the one who is the smartest...lol

[Mutate]

I was made sexist by the church - not because they taught sexism - on the contary, they were always had loud, feminist female speakers. But the women there were SO easliy led. I literally cannot imagine a woman who has come away from Xianity based on her own thought research - Oh I know women who came away, but only because they were led by a new influence, new boyfriend/group of friends. If they had a big female empowerment day, theyd be agresssivly shouting for God and trusting Christians - if they made friends with a cool gang of goths, God is forgotton and theyre out clubbing/sleeping around. Agressive and shouting for God, but with no thought, "just cause theyve been told to".

[gypsy79]

Tapophilia,

 

It was interesting what you said about your church putting the woman on a pedestal, doing things for her and talking about how wonderful she is. I have always looked at that as insulting to women (patronizing), maybe because I am strange, I don’t know. It just always gets on my nerves because it seems like those types of churches praise the woman regarding her cooking or childcare abilities, never her public speaking or leadership abilities…for example. Oh, unless those leadership abilities are discussed in the context of a children’s Sunday School class. LOL.

 

I knew these teachings were wrong at the time, but I think they contributed to my becoming involved in a marriage at age 23 that otherwise I would not have.

 

Me too. Age 19. *Shudders*

 

different manipulation games played including the good ole stand over tactic; often attempted on me because I am all of 5ft tall

 

I am also a shorty and tall people better take a step back if they think the stand over tactic will work with me. That raises my hackles faster than anything. So insulting!

[bird28]

My church was pretty sexist, but surprisingly I was supported in my decision to choose a career path and stuff by my grandma who raised me. But of course sex outside of marriage is sin, and I've heard all kinds of things like for example a woman is suppose to give her man sex whenever he asks and is suppose to stay at home, etc...

[godlessgrrl]

I literally cannot imagine a woman who has come away from Xianity based on her own thought research...

 

I did.

 

I bet I'm not the only one here, either.

 

It was interesting what you said about your church putting the woman on a pedestal, doing things for her and talking about how wonderful she is. I have always looked at that as insulting to women (patronizing), maybe because I am strange, I don’t know.

 

You're not the only one who finds this insulting, mainly because when it happens it isn't really about appreciating a real woman for her own abilities and character. It's about creating a limited role for all women and revering the role, and doing honor only to the women who fit the fantasy. Pedestals are tall, too, and it's easy to fall from them by being imperfect or human or real or somehow not fitting into the projected desires of the men in charge - and typically when a woman falls from her pedestal, she tends to get shamed for it.

 

Plus if you're up on a pedestal guys can look up your skirt.

 

That's all rather a different thing from men who can just dig a woman for who she is, not what they want her to be.

[DuchessAtreides]

 

 

 

There were only a couple cases where I saw this arrangement taken too far and the women were nervous wrecks.

 

I think the overall impression that I fight with everyday was the constant reminder that EVE sinned, Calvary was big on mentioning that, but then again, in the Orthodoxy they revere Mary so much as they say "Christ could not have entered the world were it not for Woman"

 

So they also credit the Woman with bringing Salvation and if you know Orthodoxy, they are more into Mary than catholics.

 

 

 

We're talking Eastern Orthodoxy right? Well I'll answer in the words of a woman university professor who is a Hellenic Pagan: "And what would you have expected? God to choose a man to enter the world through? He chose a woman to give birth! Very unusual!"

 

 

 

In the Orthodoxy however, it was very old world, the women, most of them were definitely submissive. To be honest though, they all seemed to have very good relatioships, this probably arose from the fact that both sides ultimately believed this arrangement to be divine will and they didnt use it against eachother in a bad way. of course, who knows what was REALLY going on inside these peoples heads and hearts.

They're both equally stupid, pardon me.