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Goodbye Jesus

Question For The Atheists


leftofpunk

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I'm currently in a fairly polite email discussion with what I think might be a snooty agnostic, but possibly a christian. Basically it started with the age-old "Atheists have faith too" argument. I'm handling myself pretty well against that explaining the difference between not believing and believing a god doesn't exist but then he drops this on me...

 

"Why would the fact that being an atheist requires faith change anything for you? What real difference would it make?"

 

Now I know it'd be a slippery slope to say it really doesn't change anything for me. I wanna say soemthing like "it's not faith" because it's not, it'd be like saying evolution is a religion. Just stating that doesn't change the application of evolution, but it's acknowledging something that isn't true.

 

So how would you go about this?

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I would ask if he/she needs faith to NOT believe in Santa. How about Zeus. Or Allah.

 

If not, why not? Probably because they have no reason or evidence to believe it. On that basis, not believing is a logical conclusion, not an article of faith.

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Right, but the question was if that would really change anything and what difference it would make to call it faith. Really faith is just a stronger variation of trust. Unshakable trust is how I think the dictionary defines it.

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"Why would the fact that being an atheist requires faith change anything for you? What real difference would it make?"

What would it change if the statement "atheism requires faith" was true?

 

It would require that God can give faith in non-belief of him. At least according to the Bible, faith comes from God, so if atheism is a faith or a belief, then it must come from God.

 

This leads to one of following conclusions:

 

1) that God exists but don't want me to believe in him by giving me faith in atheism, so why would Christians fight their own God's will?

2) faith doesn't come from God and the Bible is wrong - and God potentially doesn't exit, but Christianity definitely believes in the wrong God.

3) faith and belief has nothing to do with being an atheist, and God potentially does not exist, and people can have unbelief, like in Santa Clause

 

Of those 3 (there might be more), I think door #3 is the best option for Christians, so why do they argue so much against it?

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I'm currently in a fairly polite email discussion with what I think might be a snooty agnostic, but possibly a christian. Basically it started with the age-old "Atheists have faith too" argument. I'm handling myself pretty well against that explaining the difference between not believing and believing a god doesn't exist but then he drops this on me...

 

"Why would the fact that being an atheist requires faith change anything for you? What real difference would it make?"

 

Now I know it'd be a slippery slope to say it really doesn't change anything for me. I wanna say soemthing like "it's not faith" because it's not, it'd be like saying evolution is a religion. Just stating that doesn't change the application of evolution, but it's acknowledging something that isn't true.

 

So how would you go about this?

If not believing in a proposition that lacks evidence can be deemed an act of faith, then I have faith. He is right that it would make no functional difference to me whether I acknowledge this or not; the fallacy lies in the equivocation of the faith I have just defined with religious belief-without-proof faith (i.e. believing and not believing). You had it right in the OP, but your friend abandoned that point and responded with a red herring.

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The difference it makes is that if being an atheist is a form of faith, then not collecting baseball cards would count as a hobby or not playing football would count as a sport, or not being alive would count as alive, and that would just be silly.

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Is the Christian who asked the question willing to allow atheists to start "Church of Atheism", get tax relief and even get monetary contributions from the "Faith Based Initiative" Bush established? I don't think so. So why not, if it's a faith and a religion?

 

If his counterargument is that atheism is a minority, then why the heck do Christian's keep on claiming they're the minority and all those "majority evil atheists" are persecuting them?

 

Lies, lots of lies and deceit. That's the "spirit" of Christianity.

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Guest Net Eng
"Why would the fact that being an atheist requires faith change anything for you? What real difference would it make?"

 

So how would you go about this?

 

I patently reject the his opening statement that being an atheists requires faith. Faith is belief without proof. And that don't fly in my book.

 

From my perspective the question is nonsensical because it just assumes that faith is required for the atheists.

 

Fruitloopism is a better definition for my views. Credit to REBOOT.

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You could turn the question round and ask what difference it would make to them if your atheism is faith?

 

If atheism is faith then they should respect your right to believe in and follow what your heart tells you is true. If atheism is faith then you don't have to use reason to back up any of your claims.

 

Telling atheists that we have as much faith as those who follow religion means that we can play all the annoying little games that they play.

 

You can play them at their own game of not needing to use rational argument to justify belief because you have faith in what you believe in your heart to be true. And they have to be able to accept that is a valid position, because it's the exact same position that they take.

 

They compromise themselves a lot by using that argument.

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Is the Christian who asked the question willing to allow atheists to start "Church of Atheism", get tax relief and even get monetary contributions from the "Faith Based Initiative" Bush established? I don't think so. So why not, if it's a faith and a religion?

Good point. My faith requires me to sleep in on Sat. mornings and not knock on my neighbors doors or distribute corny leaflets. I'm also required to sit on my porch Sunday morns and drink and ale or two while laughing at the sheep headed for church. Those things aren't free. The fed needs to contribute heavily to the "church of Atheism." :lmao:

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We need to start knocking on doors, hand out pamphlets and stand on boxes in the corners in the city, and preach about the "end of days" and how the Atheist God Dawring will throw everyone in a black hole unless they convert and believe in Evolution.

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"Why would the fact that being an atheist requires faith change anything for you? What real difference would it make?"

 

Why the hell do you care? Why does it have to "change" anything?

 

Why would the fact that being an agnostic requires you to be a duck change anything for you? See? It's meaningless because you don't have to be a duck in order to be an agnostic, it just doesn't apply.

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I usually respond with this:

 

"The definition of faith as a religious person uses it is 'believing in something for no good reason. Believing despite the absence of evidence, or proof'. There's another word that means the same thing, 'Gullible'."

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Guest Zenobia
You can play them at their own game of not needing to use rational argument to justify belief because you have faith in what you believe in your heart to be true. And they have to be able to accept that is a valid position, because it's the exact same position that they take.

 

Evolution, I agree with your point MOL... a good example is the movie "Contact" based on Carl Sagan's book. In the end, Dr. Arroway couldn't prove what she had seen any more than the xtian preacher she was banging. So in a sense there is "faith" in believing god does not exist.

 

When the movie came out, some xtian dude tried to argue with me that Arroway "found god" in the end... I have no idea how he formulated that opinion, since that wasn't even remotely what Carl was saying...

 

I think what Carl meant is that Xtians don't have a monopoly on "faith" any more than they have a monopoly on "morals" or "family values."

 

These concepts existed long before xtianity was a gleam in Mary's eye and will probably exist long after xtianity takes it's final, dying breath.

 

Just MHO.

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We need to start knocking on doors, hand out pamphlets and stand on boxes in the corners in the city, and preach about the "end of days" and how the Atheist God Dawring will throw everyone in a black hole unless they convert and believe in Evolution.

 

I think "Darkwins" is a better name. A combination of "Darwin" and "Dawkins."

 

Darkwins!!! [insert metal guitar solo here] Darkwins!!!

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Guest WarrantedPVC
This leads to one of following conclusions:

 

1) that God exists but don't want me to believe in him by giving me faith in atheism, so why would Christians fight their own God's will?

2) faith doesn't come from God and the Bible is wrong - and God potentially doesn't exit, but Christianity definitely believes in the wrong God.

3) faith and belief has nothing to do with being an atheist, and God potentially does not exist, and people can have unbelief, like in Santa Clause

 

Of those 3 (there might be more), I think door #3 is the best option for Christians, so why do they argue so much against it?

1) is held by a lot of fundamentalists, though. Their view is this:

 

1. God loves me and gave me faith in him. Praise the Lord!

2. God hates the majority of the world and hardened their hearts so they can't believe in him. Praise the Lord!

3. God loves me so much that he said I can judge all those who don't believe in him. Evil evil heathens, to hellfire! Praise the Lord!

4. God loves me so much that he said I can help some others recognize if He has given them faith, and this is so important that seriously offending the majority of nonbelievers I talk to is a small price to pay. Plus, they get to hell anyway so why do I care about their happiness on earth... Wretched beings! Praise the Lord!

 

Does any of you know "lucaslabrador" on Youtube (and many other video sites - afaik Youtube banned him recently, no surprise)? He's one of the prime examples of that view...

 

Anyway, I think it's very difficult to change a Christian's mind about how faith arises - for them it's "obvious" that God exists so they're convinced you just need to have "faith" if you don't believe it. Most of the evidence is in their personal lives like "I saw Jesus in my dream" or"Jesus saved my life on X occasion", stuff probably too private for them ever to tell you, especially for fear of you rationalizing their experiences and shaking their faith in them. And that's probably fine, I mean they're free not to want to deconvert! I've recently adopted the attitude that I don't want to debate with them about religion - it has always resulted in me getting very worked up and emotionally involved, without any good results... all I ask for is respect for my own views.

 

PVC

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I'm currently in a fairly polite email discussion with what I think might be a snooty agnostic, but possibly a christian. Basically it started with the age-old "Atheists have faith too" argument. I'm handling myself pretty well against that explaining the difference between not believing and believing a god doesn't exist but then he drops this on me...

 

"Why would the fact that being an atheist requires faith change anything for you? What real difference would it make?"

 

Now I know it'd be a slippery slope to say it really doesn't change anything for me. I wanna say soemthing like "it's not faith" because it's not, it'd be like saying evolution is a religion. Just stating that doesn't change the application of evolution, but it's acknowledging something that isn't true.

 

So how would you go about this?

 

 

Ugh, I can't stand the ridiculous "oh you have faith too!" argument. It doesn't make any sense. Just tell him/her the reason you don't believe in a god is because you see no evidence that leads you to such a conclusion. If atheism was a position which also required faith, it would be pointless for someone like us to switch from one to the other. Atheism is for those who do not use faith to believe in things (or pretend we believe), and for it to be a position of faith would render it contradictory to what we are.

 

 

And if s/he tries to pull the "well you have to have faith in science" crap, tell them that faith is believing in something with no evidence. Not believing in that which you cannot prove 100%. Nothing can actually be proven to be absolutely true. For all you know, I'm a figment of your imagination or vice versa. A lack of faith is not a position of nihilism - it is a position that requires reasonable evidence which is so great, we have no choice but to believe.

 

 

Edit: this is from the stance that atheism is simply a lack of belief in god, and not the flat-out denial of some sort of god. If you do happen to come from the position that god does not exist, then you are using faith, and you should probably rethink that one.

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For me to deconvert took a whole lot more faith than it ever did to be a Christian. Why? Because of the fear of hell. To just follow the herd and mimic the creed or whatever one's church does is the easy way out if you're born into it. Seeking truth for its own sake, testing every proposition to be sure it is, or is not, true--that takes energy no Christian I have yet encountered is up to putting forth. How do I know? Everytime I confront a Christian with my deepest questions--the few who bother responding tell me they have never thought things through so deeply. I then ask myself: Is the reason that they don't have the intellectual ability or that they just don't bother? Are they lazy?

 

I can't answer those questions. But I do know that they don't do it even after their attention is drawn to the fact that these questions exist and are important to me. They try to shut my questions down with the "You need to have faith" admonission.

 

Fact of the matter is, they can admonish all they want but that does not answer my absolute need to know. And they lost another member. The church would be better of if it had not lost all of us intelligent thinking people. It will realize this when it is too late. Not all of us are a Dawkins or Darwin but the accumulated efforts of our thinking will have an impact on the established religion, esp. with the internet.

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Sorry, I got off-topic in my last post. I appologize for that. I stand by the fact that it required more faith for me to deconvert than be a Christian. But to the question of this thread....

 

I'm currently in a fairly polite email discussion with what I think might be a snooty agnostic, but possibly a christian. Basically it started with the age-old "Atheists have faith too" argument.

 

I guess it depends on what one means by faith. I didn't know the Bible says faith comes from God. It seems different people mean different things by the word faith. When I was still a Christian I spent a bit of time in the home of an atheist couple. They talked about concerns for the future regarding an aging parent who was very difficult to deal with and did not accept his inability to care for himself, etc. Though he was rolling in money he refused to arrange for services he needed. Part of the problem was that he lived on the other side of the Atlantic. I noted that the couple's attitude toward the situation was identical to that of Christians in similar situations--to take it a day at a time and trust things would work out somehow or other. In my mind that is faith and no human can live without it.

 

The Christian's next question would be: Faith in what?

 

Seems I've been asked that and I hazzarded a reply along these lines (which--to my surprise--was accepted): Why does it have to be faith in something? Can't it just be faith that it will work out?

 

"Why would the fact that being an atheist requires faith change anything for you? What real difference would it make?"

 

Given my understanding of faith and my position that being human in an unpredictable universe requires faith, I would be inclined to ask what he/she means by the question. I don't really understand the question. But one thing I do know: Given my understanding of faith, and my understanding that atheism means lack of belief in God, it is stupid to talk about faith IN atheism. However, that does not seem to be the question, so maybe it was a stupid thing for me to say.

 

Now I know it'd be a slippery slope to say it really doesn't change anything for me. I wanna say soemthing like "it's not faith" because it's not, it'd be like saying evolution is a religion. Just stating that doesn't change the application of evolution, but it's acknowledging something that isn't true.

 

So how would you go about this?

 

For the most part I avoid discussions about religion with Christians unless both parties know and understand that there will be a difference of opinion, and both parties agree that this will be okay. I have begun my first such informal discussion and will see where it goes and if it works. I've learned to know the person over time and he seems to be very respectful and accepting of me as I am regardless of my lack of faith.

 

In the few cases that evangelists or missionaries have approached me I did not have the choice to set up agreements regarding differing beliefs, but I did try to keep it simple and peaceful. And I tried to end the conversation as fast as possible. In both situations I was a captive audience--once in the back corner of a crowded bus and once at a bus stop waiting for my bus. Thus, keeping it peaceful and ending the conversation was in my best interests.

 

Let's see, I have written to organizations like Focus on the Family to challenge them on their beliefs. That did not include any pre-arranged agreements of any sort. Leftie, I understand your question regards a more personal situation, perhaps a friendship you care about. It was with that kind of situation in mind that I was responding here.

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LeftofPunk, I would ask for clarification of what is meant by the word “faith.†I have said several times here that I have a certain minimal amount of faith. And though some may grow weary of me quoting my favorite biologist, I will do it once more…

 

Natural Law makes two separate assertions about the self and its ambience:

 

1)The succession of events or phenomena that we perceive in the ambience is not entirely arbitrary or whimsical; there are relations (e.g., causal relations) manifest in the world of phenomena.

2)The relations between phenomena that we have just posited are, at least in part, capable of being perceived and grasped by the human mind, i.e., by the cognitive self.

 

Science depends in equal parts on these two separate prongs of Natural Law. The first, which says something about the ambience, asserts that it is in some sense orderly enough to manifest relations or laws. Clearly, if this were not so, there can be no science, also no natural language, and most likely, no sanity either. So it is, for most of us at any rate, not too great an exercise of faith to believe this.

 

Robert Rosen from Life Itself, pg 58

 

I think Rosen says it well here. I have faith that there are relationships between phenomena. In causality we trust.

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Make sure you are arguing apples vs apples by making him define faith. It may be that his definition of faith is broad enough to include you, but it is not likely. If it is not broad enough then restrict his use to his definition. If it is broad enough then the argument is over.

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