Guest end3 Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 Just as faithful men will be reckoned to God at the end of this age, so were the children of that time. Ah, salvation by murder. I wonder why is it that Christians let their kids grow up? Take a few pictures and drown them in the baptismal fount. That's the ticket -- straight to heaven. Wanka! Wanka! Course the parents and the preacher might go to hell, but hey I'd go to hell if my kids didn't have to. Too late now though; they are both unbelievers. Even Hitler would be in heaven if his parents had been kind. Drown the little bastard before he could even say "gas chamber". I bet he'd a made a cute angel. Yeah, just like that Chef, he can take them prior to the the destruction of the evil men inhabiting the promise land, just like he will take his children prior to the destruction of the evil here on earth. Wanka, wanka...exactly! I think you got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. Actually, the commandment later on to smite every living thing of the Canaanites, would be a direct contradiction of this then, wouldn't it? I am adamant that God cares for children and does not consider them evil until the time of "youth"... So do you consider children evil at the time youth like God does? Did you ever once consider your own children evil? I guess the question is there any justifcation for God killing babies in the sense of having them killed because they are evil. My answer is no. I believe the answer to be simple. Just as faithful men will be reckoned to God at the end of this age, so were the children of that time. What Chef said. Why let anyone live to go to hell then? Kill all children that are born straightway out of the womb, that way as that generation dies off no more humans will be born and hell stops filling up. In fact, deliberately make more babies and kill them off so God have more little darling angels to adore him. Yikes.... see where this theology takes you? Same for the animals....the morals of the day were probably leading men to having sex with the animals, and hence the statement in the law Lev 18:23. That's beautiful. A man has sex with an animal, so you kill the animal. So if a pedophile violates an innocent child, should they execute the child? Now as far as the morality of the day leading men to have sex with animals... Show some evidence that there were any codes of conduct that made that OK in any society back then. Just wildly speculating? No, the morality of any age doesn't condone goat sex, but be well assured that great many an adolescent farm boy has either imagined having his way with an animal in his wild raging hormones, or has actually done so. Which leads to this verse, "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin." He. 4:15 Since he was a rural boy, and was tempted in ALL THINGS, did Jesus imagine getting it on with a chicken? And if so, isn't there a verse which says if you lust in you heart after another woman (substitute farm animal of choice there), you have committed the act of adultery with them? So how could he be tempted without feeling a desire, and if he felt the desire, then that was sin, and Jesus was not without sin. ....haven't figured out the take the women thing, but will... That's easy. Privative society attributing their thoughts to God. Happens all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 Came to me this morning Hans...6 years, 6 months and 6 days.... Not bad. Actually bar mitzvah comes to mind...just a wild guess I think that's 9 years of age, even though I don't think the Bible really specify it. But what if a child is born prematurely? Do you count from the day they were supposed to be born, or from the (premature) birth date? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 Came to me this morning Hans...6 years, 6 months and 6 days.... Not bad. Actually bar mitzvah comes to mind...just a wild guess I think that's 9 years of age, even though I don't think the Bible really specify it. But what if a child is born prematurely? Do you count from the day they were supposed to be born, or from the (premature) birth date? it's all relative...but I did have one weird graphical representation come into my head the other day(without drugs), concerning time and individuallity and moral movement of the individuals.... need to draw it out to see if it resembles anything...perhaps a dog or rhino... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 Actually, the commandment later on to smite every living thing of the Canaanites, would be a direct contradiction of this then, wouldn't it? Within that context, I think he was talking about the entire earth, so no, no contradiction. I am adamant that God cares for children and does not consider them evil until the time of "youth"... So do you consider children evil at the time youth like God does? Did you ever once consider your own children evil? Evil, as in the definition....bad morals....yes, got after both my daughters last weekend, ages 12 and 8. My little boy, not at all, he is near two. What Chef said. Why let anyone live to go to hell then? Kill all children that are born straightway out of the womb, that way as that generation dies off no more humans will be born and hell stops filling up. In fact, deliberately make more babies and kill them off so God have more little darling angels to adore him. Yikes.... see where this theology takes you? You are adding to the explanation....we take children away from bad environments all the time. "Why let anyone live?"...to dwell with God. He did kill all the children in the flood, but the nature cropped up again. Noah and the family were righteous relative to the time... Now as far as the morality of the day leading men to have sex with animals... Show some evidence that there were any codes of conduct that made that OK in any society back then. Just wildly speculating? No, the morality of any age doesn't condone goat sex, but be well assured that great many an adolescent farm boy has either imagined having his way with an animal in his wild raging hormones, or has actually done so. Do you wish me to provide an internet link to a beastiality site? Really....AM. And if so, isn't there a verse which says if you lust in you heart after another woman (substitute farm animal of choice there), you have committed the act of adultery with them? So how could he be tempted without feeling a desire, and if he felt the desire, then that was sin, and Jesus was not without sin. Hard even for me to fathom how one is all God and all man. Still working on that one.... That's easy. Privative society attributing their thoughts to God. Happens all the time. an easy out, but let's not forget to praise Occam.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 What Chef said. Why let anyone live to go to hell then? Kill all children that are born straightway out of the womb, that way as that generation dies off no more humans will be born and hell stops filling up. In fact, deliberately make more babies and kill them off so God have more little darling angels to adore him. Yikes.... see where this theology takes you? You are adding to the explanation....we take children away from bad environments all the time. "Why let anyone live?"...to dwell with God. He did kill all the children in the flood, but the nature cropped up again. Noah and the family were righteous relative to the time... I wish to make this more clear. You are adding to the explanation...we remove children from harmful environment all the time. "Why let anyone live?"....so they might have a choice, a choice to choose Him, to dwell with Him. He did already kill everyone in the flood, but the nature cropped up again. Noah and the family were righteous relative to the time.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 I wish to make this more clear. You are adding to the explanation...we remove children from harmful environment all the time. "Why let anyone live?"....so they might have a choice, a choice to choose Him, to dwell with Him. Should murdering children be legal then, since you think it's ok to murder babies as long as they get to go to heaven? Why don't you murder your own children then? And how can they choose to dwell with him or not if they're already dead? They had no choice to die because God murdered them himself. Tell me this End, if God commanded you to kill your children, would you do it? If you would, why do you think this is moral? If you wouldn't murder your children if God told you to do it, then why do you worship God? Oh wait, I forgot that End was ignoring me for no reason at all. So, can someone relay this question to End for me so he'll answer it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 Should murdering children be legal then, since you think it's ok to murder babies as long as they get to go to heaven? How did I advocate murder? Why don't you murder your own children then? Because I love them And how can they choose to dwell with him or not if they're already dead? Because at that age, the are not held accountable. They had no choice to die because God murdered them himself. No, He did not murder them, He took them to be with Him. Tell me this End, if God commanded you to kill your children, would you do it? If I knew full well it were God. If you would, why do you think this is moral? Not by my standards. Ok Neon, I didn't take it as bad after talking with you...quite possibly I was wrong... We can remember here, we are talking God.....with all the Godlike features...create, destroy, etc....and don't shoot the messenger here, the "God did it card". The explanation I am giving is not inconsistent with the Bible. The promise land is in "type", Heaven, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 it's all relative...but I did have one weird graphical representation come into my head the other day(without drugs), concerning time and individuallity and moral movement of the individuals.... need to draw it out to see if it resembles anything...perhaps a dog or rhino... There are lot of scientific evidence that adolescent kids are driven by emotions and that they don't have a fully developed sense of planning or understanding responsibility or acts and consequence. It seems like these faculties of the brain are not fully developed until around 20-25 years old. Would you consider all acts below that age as amoral (i.e. not to be judged on a basis of sin/moral/ethics)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 it's all relative...but I did have one weird graphical representation come into my head the other day(without drugs), concerning time and individuallity and moral movement of the individuals.... need to draw it out to see if it resembles anything...perhaps a dog or rhino... There are lot of scientific evidence that adolescent kids are driven by emotions and that they don't have a fully developed sense of planning or understanding responsibility or acts and consequence. It seems like these faculties of the brain are not fully developed until around 20-25 years old. Would you consider all acts below that age as amoral (i.e. not to be judged on a basis of sin/moral/ethics)? I think that's not a bad thought considering the purported lifespans in the OT. Don't we consider 30-somethings to be generally confused about who they are, and the "start living" phase at 40+. So yeah, I don't think it is out of bounds....I personally was a drunk until roughly 25... I guess one would have to look at the consensus. We hold children accountable for different aspects at different ages.....school age violations merit "detention" after school, then juvenile detention centers, then adult prisons (hell if you wish). What I was thinking of in my original post was the age where socialization creates a different person and actions than that of the child you know as a parent...I think you understand that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 How did I advocate murder?By justifying God's mass genocide and infanticide, it does give the implication of advocating murder. Because I love themThen, how would you feel if God murdered your children and tried to cover up the fact he murdered them by saying he "took them to be with him." If God slaughtered your children, wouldn't you be upset and furious with God? Why would you worship a God that could take away your children at any second and justify it as "taking them to be with him" yet in every other circumstance this would be immoral and unjust? Isn't this a double standard? Because at that age, the are not held accountable.How do you know they're not held accountable? Where's your evidence for this? And no, the bible doesn't count as evidence. No, He did not murder them, He took them to be with Him.If someone murdered your children, then said that God told them to do it to send your children to be with God, would you accept that as being justified? If not, how is that any different than God murdering children himself? Isn't it hypocritical for God to command humans thou shalt not murder and to punish them for murdering, yet God gets away with it because he "took them to be with him"? Why should we worship a God that doesn't follow his own rules? If I knew full well it were God.Why is it ok to murder children without God's approval but it's ok to do it with God's approval? Tell me this End, do you do things because they actually are good or do you do something only because God told you to do it? In other words, is following God more important than following what you know is right and wrong? Not by my standards.If it's not moral by your standards, then why should it be moral by God's standards? Why do you make excuses for him and follow a God who's standards that you know are more immoral than yours? If it's immoral for humans to murder children and God created morality, then why does God get special permission to break the morals he established just because he "sends them to be with him"? If a murderer kills your children and later makes it up to you with hugs and kisses, would that excuse their murder and suddenly make what they did just? If not, then why doesn't the same apply to God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 By justifying God's mass genocide and infanticide, it does give the implication of advocating murder. I think you are missing the point I am trying to relate. This is a potential action by God that is not inconsistent with what the Bible relates. Types and shadows are throughout the Bible. What I am trying to get across Neon, is... if there is a rapture, would it be call murder... Then, how would you feel if God murdered your children and tried to cover up the fact he murdered them by saying he "took them to be with him." If God slaughtered your children, wouldn't you be upset and furious with God? Why would you worship a God that could take away your children at any second and justify it as "taking them to be with him" yet in every other circumstance this would be immoral and unjust? Isn't this a double standard? That also would be inconsistent....if I am a believer, then the scenario would not occur IMO in the context of our my point. Certainly it is possible that a child is taken prior to us being ready these days...i.e. injury, sickness, etc.. Isn't a faith in God part of how we console ourselves now when a child is taken before they have lived a lengthy lifespan? How do you know they're not held accountable? Where's your evidence for this? And no, the bible doesn't count as evidence. The evidence are the very feelings we have Neon of what an injustice it would be to lose a child to murder. If someone murdered your children, then said that God told them to do it to send your children to be with God, would you accept that as being justified? If not, how is that any different than God murdering children himself? Isn't it hypocritical for God to command humans thou shalt not murder and to punish them for murdering, yet God gets away with it because he "took them to be with him"? Why should we worship a God that doesn't follow his own rules? Again, you use the word murder which in my opinion is a very different thing. And if we are following the story as I understand it today, then I would be dead in the battle and not much chance to change the issue. Why is it ok to murder children without God's approval but it's ok to do it with God's approval? Tell me this End, do you do things because they actually are good or do you do something only because God told you to do it? In other words, is following God more important than following what you know is right and wrong? Neon, if you choose to believe it, they had God speaking directly to them. If I had that experience, as they speak of it in the Bible, I sure might be inclined to kill a child, but would have to have the faith that Abraham had to know that God would stop me. If it's not moral by your standards, then why should it be moral by God's standards? Why do you make excuses for him and follow a God who's standards that you know are more immoral than yours? If it's immoral for humans to murder children and God created morality, then why does God get special permission to break the morals he established just because he "sends them to be with him"? If a murderer kills your children and later makes it up to you with hugs and kisses, would that excuse their murder and suddenly make what they did just? If not, then why doesn't the same apply to God? Neon, some people have exemplifed the very thing you talk of by trusting in God, to forgive a murderer. God assumably knows more than do we. I defend a God that I believe to be holy. God is the judge of what occurs and is the only one who is able to judge the just breaking of His morals set forth I would assume. People have a darn hard time with some of the questions you ask Neon. We have a system of 12 jurors and a lot of crap that goes down in answering these questions.... Thanks for the questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 I think you are missing the point I am trying to relate. This is a potential action by God that is not inconsistent with what the Bible relates. Types and shadows are throughout the Bible. What I am trying to get across Neon, is... if there is a rapture, would it be call murder...Huh? That also would be inconsistent....if I am a believer, then the scenario would not occur IMO in the context of our my point.No, I think it is you that's being inconsistent with the bible since there are clear instances in the bible where God murders innocent babies such as the first-born babies of Egypt in the book of Exodus, so yes, this scenario is most certianly likely to occur if Yahweh existed. Certainly it is possible that a child is taken prior to us being ready these days...i.e. injury, sickness, etc.. Isn't a faith in God part of how we console ourselves now when a child is taken before they have lived a lengthy lifespan?Again, huh? The evidence are the very feelings we have Neon of what an injustice it would be to lose a child to murder.Huh? Again, you use the word murder which in my opinion is a very different thing. And if we are following the story as I understand it today, then I would be dead in the battle and not much chance to change the issue.Again, you are confused as to what genocide is. We aren't talking about grown adults going to war, we are talking about children being killed by God. Or are you saying God would send us to battle against children? Neon, if you choose to believe it, they had God speaking directly to them. If I had that experience, as they speak of it in the Bible, I sure might be inclined to kill a child, but would have to have the faith that Abraham had to know that God would stop me.That's not what my question was. I'm not asking if you would copy Abraham. I'm asking you if you would kill a child if God commanded you to do it, no matter if God stopped you or not. Also, even if God did stop you, why would this not count as child abuse when in any other situation in modern times it would be considered abuse by civilized societies to even almost kill your child, let alone actually do it? I defend a God that I believe to be holy.If it's holy for God to murder children and you believe God is holy, and Christians are supposed to be Christ like and all, then why don't you kill children too if you think it's holy to kill children? God is the judge of what occurs and is the only one who is able to judge the just breaking of His morals set forth I would assume.Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 No, I think it is you that's being inconsistent with the bible since there are clear instances in the bible where God murders innocent babies such as the first-born babies of Egypt in the book of Exodus, so yes, this scenario is most certianly likely to occur if Yahweh existed. Again, if God is the creator, does he not have the option to save these children as well, or do you limit God to your perception Or are you saying God would send us to battle against children? I believe it is a point of the discussion, that God sent the Iraelites to kill all, as in everything??? Am I misunderstanding? I'm asking you if you would kill a child if God commanded you to do it, no matter if God stopped you or not. Also, even if God did stop you, why would this not count as child abuse when in any other situation in modern times it would be considered abuse by civilized societies to even almost kill your child, let alone actually do it? I don't know that we would know the difference until one, we die, and discover the truth, or two, have God to appear to all, and make it know to all what was happening. God is the judge of what occurs and is the only one who is able to judge the just breaking of His morals set forth I would assume.Why? Would have been better for me to have said...judge perfectly His morals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 Again, if God is the creator, does he not have the option to save these children as well, or do you limit God to your perceptionIs it moral to murder children as long as they're saved by God later? And should we murder children since you claim God has the options to save these children and that somehow magically makes everything better? I believe it is a point of the discussion, that God sent the Iraelites to kill all, as in everything??? Am I misunderstanding?Huh? I don't know that we would know the difference until one, we die, and discover the truth, or two, have God to appear to all, and make it know to all what was happening.So, you have to wait until God proves himself to you or you die to decide on whether or not you would kill a child regardless of whether or not God stops you, but you don't have to wait to decide that you would do it if he did? Huh? Again, you are still missing the point of my question. The point of my question isn't whether or not God would stop you if you killed a child that he commanded you to kill. My question is if God did not stop you from killing a child and commanded you to do it regardless, would you still do it if he told you to and did not stop you? Would have been better for me to have said...judge perfectly His morals.That still doesn't answer the question, why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Is it moral to murder children as long as they're saved by God later? And should we murder children since you claim God has the options to save these children and that somehow magically makes everything better? This is the last time Neon....No, we should not murder children, but if God appeared before me and said kill the enemy(which includes the f'n children), then I would do it, knowing full well Neon, that God sends the people that he deems guilty to die. I would expect every one of the children to be in Heaven with him as opposed to living with a bunch of terribly immoral people. And if you ask me another way, my answer will be the same.... Regardless of how you twist the question Neon, I suggest you go back and read my responses again, and if you still don't get it, pray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 This is the last time Neon....No, we should not murder children, but if God appeared before me and said kill the enemy(which includes the f'n children), then I would do it, knowing full well Neon, that God sends the people that he deems guilty to die.And again, why is it moral to murder children just because God said so and would make it up to the kids later with hugs and kisses? You also never answered my question if you thought following God was more important than following what you know is right and wrong. And you never answered my question as to why God should not be judged by the same standards he expects us to follow or why only God can judge others and not be expected to follow his own rules. I would expect every one of the children to be in Heaven with him as opposed to living with a bunch of terribly immoral people.Again, as I asked earlier which you never answered and denied you were making any such suggestions, should we legalize the murdering of children then since as long as they get to go to heaven, it's perfectly ok to kill them? Regardless of how you twist the question Neon, I suggest you go back and read my responses again, and if you still don't get it, pray.How have I been twisting my question? My question has remained the same since I asked you it. You're the only one who's been twisting my question here. First, you twist it around to make it seem like I asked you if you would copy Abraham which was not the question I asked, then you twisted the question around to make it seem like killing children because God said so is not the same as murder. You're the only one who's been flip-flopping since you've started posting in this thread. And it is insulting and immature for you to tell me to go pray to understand this. You know very full well that this site is called ex-Christian.net and we used to be Christians and prayed over many of these same issues before. We wouldn't be discussing these issues at all right now if they weren't important to us. But it's childish for you to tell me to go pray to understand what you're saying when it's your fault for not making yourself understandable. If you don't know the answers to our questions, then why don't you just be honest and say you don't know instead of essentially telling me to fuck off under the guise of "go and pray"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Is it moral to murder children as long as they're saved by God later? And should we murder children since you claim God has the options to save these children and that somehow magically makes everything better? This is the last time Neon....No, we should not murder children, but if God appeared before me and said kill the enemy(which includes the f'n children), then I would do it, knowing full well Neon, that God sends the people that he deems guilty to die. I would expect every one of the children to be in Heaven with him as opposed to living with a bunch of terribly immoral people. And if you ask me another way, my answer will be the same.... Regardless of how you twist the question Neon, I suggest you go back and read my responses again, and if you still don't get it, pray. You scare me End3. Let me go back to what I said earlier that seemed to scare you, for a reason I now feel able to conclude. I said, "I would rather go to hell with my soul, than go to heaven without it." You would rather sell you soul to escape displeasing some perceived deity, than knowing it and dying with integrity - having harmed no Life. Back to what I said rhetorically, and now said with conviction: Coward! Do you wish to retract your "hypothesis"? What does your heart, not you head, say?? P.S. For you to say such things makes me conclude you have never experienced Love and live under Fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 And again, why is it moral to murder children just because God said so and would make it up to the kids later with hugs and kisses? You also never answered my question if you thought following God was more important than following what you know is right and wrong. And you never answered my question as to why God should not be judged by the same standards he expects us to follow or why only God can judge others and not be expected to follow his own rules. Let me go at it another direction and maybe it will help....yes, I am frustrated, but will try.... Just suppose you did believe in the Bible....not saying you do, but just pretend....God in the NT will, if I am understanding correctly, and I know there are many pre and post tribulation theories, but this is a pre trib thing. When the world becomes morally corrupt enough again, as it was in the OT, God will call his people to Heaven to be with him before he sends the torment to earth. I am proposing the same theory happened to the "children" of the Canaanites or Egyptians as they are without fault in God's eyes....he created them, and he can make them "live" on earth or in Heaven. My hypothesis is that he "raptures" the children out of a bad situation as his "children" (those that believe in Jesus) will be spared the genocide when Jesus returns this time. As to your question....it is not perceived by us to be moral to even really consider this possibility, but it also says trust in God that he might do just as I have proposed, as I don't find the concept to be inconsistent throughout the Bible. But, my hypothesis may be wrong. It is not moral to murder children IMO, the reason he would have a "special" set of standards is because being God, I am assuming that he knows infinately more than do we. And just because we don't perceive God as being moral to us,there may be many things we do not know about a certain situation or even what God chooses to do with is Godly powers.....I know that is a copout to y'all, but he is God, and can do what God wants to do. So, in essence, how can the art judge the artist would be one way of putting it. I feel the only way now is to one, read the bible, or two, hope that the Holy Spirit makes himself known to us in a strong way. If though, God were appearing next to me in some form...I would not follow my own personal morals if He said do something contrary to them. Since God does has not appeared next to me in form, then for now, I have to follow what I think he wants me to do. As I have expressed before IMO, He is the only one who can say when to live and die. So, following God is more important than following my own morals. But hopefully, they are the same. Again, as I asked earlier which you never answered and denied you were making any such suggestions, should we legalize the murdering of children then since as long as they get to go to heaven, it's perfectly ok to kill them? No, we should not legalize the murder of children, as we do not know the purpose each child is to play in God's plan. I tried to answer your questions as directly as possible (the bolded phrases). My apologies for being an ass, but flowering words has never been a strong suit for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 You're funny AM, please read the post I just made to Neon and see if we still disagree... Do you wish to retract your "hypothesis"? What does your heart, not you head, say?? No, I do not wish....does it not say we all have the slant towards being bad? Heart, intellect, soul, any way you wish to express it, it doesn't matter. Make yourself a heart guy...doesn't matter...make yourself an intellectual...doesn't matter. P.S. For you to say such things makes me conclude you have never experienced Love and live under Fear. Oh, my dear friend, you are oh so wrong to the nth power. Edit: it was the pray comment that pissed in eveyones post toasties...yes that was incorrect for me to have said that...my sincere apologies to all offended, especially to you Neon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Just suppose you did believe in the Bible....not saying you do, but just pretend....God in the NT will, if I am understanding correctly, and I know there are many pre and post tribulation theories, but this is a pre trib thing. When the world becomes morally corrupt enough again, as it was in the OT, God will call his people to Heaven to be with him before he sends the torment to earth. I am proposing the same theory happened to the "children" of the Canaanites or Egyptians as they are without fault in God's eyes....he created them, and he can make them "live" on earth or in Heaven. My hypothesis is that he "raptures" the children out of a bad situation as his "children" (those that believe in Jesus) will be spared the genocide when Jesus returns this time. What? You don't think the world is morally corrupt enough now? Well of course it couldn't be because the rapture obviously hasn't happened yet. Sorry End, these children weren't raptured, they were killed. That is the reality. You have a very dark fantasy going here. End3, you are saying nothing new here. God knows much more than we do, humans are not good and cannot hope to understand God or his reasoning so we just need to have faith and accept it that things work out for the good somewhere down the line after death, no matter how awful they appear here. God is good no matter if he tells people to go kill other people (children or not). I think this position is indefensible morally but you are twisting around like an eel trying to make it moral. This idea is degrading to humanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 End3, you are saying nothing new here. God knows much more than we do, humans are not good and cannot hope to understand God or his reasoning so we just need to have faith and accept it that things work out for the good somewhere down the line after death, no matter how awful they appear here. God is good no matter if he tells people to go kill other people (children or not). I think this position is indefensible morally but you are twisting around like an eel trying to make it moral. This idea is degrading to humanity. Deva, I think your statements here are probably some of the best I've encountered to compare the schools of thought...thank-you for posting. You bring up a good point...such as, if man is created in the image of God, then how can man be corrupt as I profess?..... Wanted to put a personal thing in here so you might see where I stand. I believe I have encounterd few people that I would hold up to a "near God standard" when it comes to having shown love, or those qualities, to a high consistency in my life. With that said, I may certainly be unique in that situation, but would bet my left arm that I am not. My late grandmother, one really good friend, a couple of teachers, my dear ole mom and maybe one or two I have missed...and of course, my children. Again, these are the people that I would believe to have been consistently loving over the years. To the point, I think we can all agree that people have the ability to choose and show love, by that I mean doing for onesself and for others, to benefit society. As it is now, I only see that we see or show this love in brief glimpses, rather than a constant, as I have described with people like my grandmother. If God did not create man to a higher standard, perhaps exemplifying love 24/7, then why have we made up or profess of a place called Heaven. And isn't there a proposition in the Bible for why humanity is viewed this way. We spend a large amount of time finding fault with others rather that finding fault with the behavior. The problem does not lie in humanity, the problem lies in the presentation by humanity as to an explanation for understanding and correcting the behavior(s). Point being, many come to ex-C, IMO, not with a huge problem with the Bible or God, but a problem with religion and people. And then it changes from the behavior of the people, to that of the Bible and God are all screwed...If there were no human interference between God and us, we might certainly view God in a different light. So this takes us to degrading humanity as you say I am doing. I don't think it was the original intent of God to create an immoral being, and I don't believe that myself. I do think it is choice by humans to decide whether they want to be moral people. Certainly, there are people, including me, that often have trouble finding the best in others, but I am a firm believer that God gives each person a special way to manifest His love, that is, find a moral way to treat others, through ourselves and through his human creation. I also think that no one person is strong enough to stand against the counter force (yes, this would be the evil debil), that makes us unable to manifest this love in more than just brief glimpses. I would deem these ways as Spiritual gifts, to be manifested physically. As strange as it may seem, I carry a weedeater and gas blower in my vehicle all the time. I weedeat old ladies yards (no wise cracks, please), and places where I feel called to weedeat. I am darn good at it, as being an anal retentive like the ole man, my attention to detail makes for a good job. I don't charge any money, I just do. And for those of you who are tempted, I don't need to be reminded that I just got my reward...thanks. Even if God and the Bible might be make believe, would it not serve us better to put the "enemy" on some other side than humanity? Again, I don't see that the problem is in the inherent creation of man by God, but a lack of grace for each other by the choices we make. I know this makes no sense but to me probably, but I am trying, and y'all have "pushed" me to achieve more, write better, spell better, think more, ask the hard questions......who knows maybe some day I might be a teacher rather that just the weedeating guy.... Small edit: there is nothing wrong with the pushing, it is how we push/treat/understand, I was banned for a month from here for a drunken tirade in chat. GH is currently taking a "time out" for what I would suspect as "showing his love" to harshly, as did I. We are diametrically opposed in belief, so why then does it work the same......and who among us can accurately be the judge of all this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Just suppose you did believe in the Bible....not saying you do, but just pretend....God in the NT will, if I am understanding correctly, and I know there are many pre and post tribulation theories, but this is a pre trib thing. When the world becomes morally corrupt enough again, as it was in the OT, God will call his people to Heaven to be with him before he sends the torment to earth. I am proposing the same theory happened to the "children" of the Canaanites or Egyptians as they are without fault in God's eyes....he created them, and he can make them "live" on earth or in Heaven. My hypothesis is that he "raptures" the children out of a bad situation as his "children" (those that believe in Jesus) will be spared the genocide when Jesus returns this time.First of all, the rapture is a 19th century Christian invention and has nothing to do with the biblical scriptures whatsoever. Even as a Christian, I never believed in that rapture bullshit even though I believed in the second coming of Christ. Second, the Jews didn't even believe in heaven and hell, they believed in Sheol, which simply means "the grave." So, if God "raptured" these children, how did the Jews interpret God's actions for all those centuries when the Jews didn't believe in the rapture or even in heaven and hell? Are you saying that God purposely confused the Jews and the 1st century Christians until someone came along in the 19th century and invented the rapture? Doesn't the bible say God is not the author of confusion? Third, nowhere in the scriptures does it even remotely suggest that God "raptured" the children, and I question whether you have actually watched Asprin and AM's video or if you lied about that. Biblical examples of God commanding the murder of children or God committing the murder itself: Exodus 21:15 Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. 2 Kings 2:23-24 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. Leviticus 26:29 Further, you will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters you will eat.How are any of these verses in any way remotely similar to your "hypothesis?" And as I asked you earlier, which you still haven't answered, why is it moral for God to murder children as long as he makes it up to you with hugs and kisses later? As to your question....it is not perceived by us to be moral to even really consider this possibility, but it also says trust in God that he might do just as I have proposed, as I don't find the concept to be inconsistent throughout the Bible. But, my hypothesis may be wrong.Huh? It is not moral to murder childrenBut you said earlier in this thread that it was moral for God to kill children. Is killing children murder or isn't it? IMO, the reason he would have a "special" set of standards is because being God, I am assuming that he knows infinately more than do we.If God knows more than you do, why do you claim to know the word of God? Isn't it hypocritical for you to claim that we can't know God's ways but you then turn around and explain God's ways to us? Isn't it also disrespectful to your God to place the blame on God for not giving you all the answers by claiming it's God's fault for being too mysterious to understand? Doesn't the bible say to always be prepared to give an answer for the reason for your faith? Since you've just admitted you don't have an answer, then you've just admitted you committed a sin according to the bible, so are you now blaming God for making you sin because you didn't have an answer? And why should we worship a baby-murdering God that we can't even understand? Should a scientist be allowed to murder your child because scientists know more than you do? Should anyone be allowed to murder children as long as they're smarter than someone else? Why not, you said God can murder children because he's smarter than us, so why shouldn't the same apply to us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 And just because we don't perceive God as being moral to us,there may be many things we do not know about a certain situation or even what God chooses to do with is Godly powers.....But I thought the bible was supposed to be the truth and that it was supposed to have all the answers we needed to know? If God is all-knowing, why didn't he use his all-knowing powers to realize ahead of time that we would be confused about this and make the bible clearer to understand if the bible is incomplete? Or are you now saying God lied to us about how inerrant and perfect the bible is? I know that is a copout to y'all, but he is God, and can do what God wants to do.How is this reasoning any different than Adolf Hitler? Why is it immoral for a human dictator to demand us to worship them but it is moral for us to worship a divine dictator? I feel the only way now is to one, read the bible, or two, hope that the Holy Spirit makes himself known to us in a strong way.You do realize that this is ex-Christian.net and we tried all this before and it clearly didn't work, don't you? If though, God were appearing next to me in some form...I would not follow my own personal morals if He said do something contrary to them.Why should we change our morals to murder children just because God says to do so? You realize that this is the same rationalization that clinically insane criminals who kill their children because they believe God told them to use, right? How is this mentality different than say, an al-qaida terrorist who commits genocide because they believed Allah promised them 72 virgins? Since God does has not appeared next to me in form, then for now, I have to follow what I think he wants me to do.But you said before that we can't know God's ways because he knows more than us. If God knows more than us, then how can you claim to think to know what God's ways are? As I have expressed before IMO, He is the only one who can say when to live and die. So, following God is more important than following my own morals. But hopefully, they are the same.Why? No, we should not legalize the murder of children, as we do not know the purpose each child is to play in God's plan.Then, why did you claim to know what God's plan for the children in the bible were? Why should we worship a God who's plan for children is inconsistent as you've just admitted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 "But I thought the bible was supposed to be the truth and that it was supposed to have all the answers we needed to know? If God is all-knowing, why didn't he use his all-knowing powers to realize ahead of time that we would be confused about this and make the bible clearer to understand if the bible is incomplete? Or are you now saying God lied to us about how inerrant and perfect the bible is?" You are asking me to totally answer for God, the bible says we only see in part. "How is this reasoning any different than Adolf Hitler? Why is it immoral for a human dictator to demand us to worship them but it is moral for us to worship a divine dictator?" Because he is God Neon "You do realize that this is ex-Christian.net and we tried all this before and it clearly didn't work, don't you?" I am yet to understand totally why I am here as well Neon "Why should we change our morals to murder children just because God says to do so? You realize that this is the same rationalization that clinically insane criminals who kill their children because they believe God told them to use, right? How is this mentality different than say, an al-qaida terrorist who commits genocide because they believed Allah promised them 72 virgins? " It's the explanation that works for me Neon, and buy the way, God has yet to appear in form next to me, save the Bible. "But you said before that we can't know God's ways because he knows more than us. If God knows more than us, then how can you claim to think to know what God's ways are? " by obediently doing what it says to do in the Bible...it hasn't failed me to date. "As I have expressed before IMO, He is the only one who can say when to live and die. So, following God is more important than following my own morals. But hopefully, they are the same." Why? Why what? "Then, why did you claim to know what God's plan for the children in the bible were? Why should we worship a God who's plan for children is inconsistent as you've just admitted?" I think it is a possibility that is not inconsistent in type with the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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