My Video On Evolving Morality And Creationism

[Guest end3]

I'll respond to your other post later neon...

[Neon Genesis]

You are asking me to totally answer for God, the bible says we only see in part.

If we can only see part of it, why should we worship God if we can't understand all of it? When you try to solve a math equation, do you decide what the answer is before fully solving the equation? No, you have to go through every step properly and then when you've finally solved all of the equation, then you can claim to know what the answer is. So, how can you claim to know what the answer to our questions are if you only understand part of it? If you can only understand part of it, then you really don't have any actual answers and all of this is just pure speculation.

 

Because he is God Neon

Why is this a justification for God's dictatorship? I also noticed you didn't deny that God was a dictator, so do you admit that he is one, then?

 

I am yet to understand totally why I am here as well Neon

What does that have to do with any of what we've been discussing?

 

 

It's the explanation that works for me Neon, and buy the way, God has yet to appear in form next to me, save the Bible.

So, in other words, you only believe in these things because you want to, not because they are true or because these are actual answers to our questions?

 

 

by obediently doing what it says to do in the Bible...it hasn't failed me to date.

Huh?

 

"As I have expressed before IMO, He is the only one who can say when to live and die.

Why is this all-loving for a God to create things but to murder them on a whim because he says so? God sure sounds like a spoiled brat, doesn't he?

 

 

Why what?

Why is it more important to follow God than it is to follow the morals that God gave you? Why did God give us morals in the first place if he think it's more important to follow him than our morals he created?

 

 

 

 

I think it is a possibility that is not inconsistent in type with the bible.

Huh?

[Guest end3]

I'm done Neon, I've tried.....

[Deva]

Deva, I think your statements here are probably some of the best I've encountered to compare the schools of thought...thank-you for posting.

 

Thank you for the compliment but I'm not sure what schools of thought you are comparing. Christian and Ex-Christian?

 

You bring up a good point...such as, if man is created in the image of God, then how can man be corrupt as I profess?.....

 

I didn't say that. My point was that the world today is just as corrupt as in Old Testament Bible times so why hasn't the rapture occurred? That does not mean that I accept that the nature of human beings is that they are corrupted by sin.

 

Agree that there are few people who are consistently loving.

 

If God did not create man to a higher standard, perhaps exemplifying love 24/7, then why have we made up or profess of a place called Heaven. And isn't there a proposition in the Bible for why humanity is viewed this way.

 

These ideas came from human thought, End3. God as a creator is a supposition and a concept. Some people at certain times in history seem to have found it useful in their lives. To my mind God as presented in the Bible does not exemplify love 24/7, so I can't follow your last sentence very well.

 

We spend a large amount of time finding fault with others rather that finding fault with the behavior.

 

Yes, of course we do because right or wrong we attach the behavior that we disapprove of with the person who did it. Its quite natural.

 

The problem does not lie in humanity, the problem lies in the presentation by humanity as to an explanation for understanding and correcting the behavior(s). Point being, many come to ex-C, IMO, not with a huge problem with the Bible or God, but a problem with religion and people. And then it changes from the behavior of the people, to that of the Bible and God are all screwed...If there were no human interference between God and us, we might certainly view God in a different light.

 

Not sure I understand your point here End. Certainly the problems we have with the Bible and God are human problems. They arise in the human mind and, if you will, spirit. On the other hand, its a fact that many people here have huge problems with the Bible, including myself. We were told the Bible is "God's Word" and infallible. We found out differently. That presents a problem. We were supposed to view God through the lens of the Bible and found out it was only another product of human thought. Understand, End?

 

Certainly some of us have also had problems with people too. There is nothing BUT human interference/or, for that matter, harmony between God and us because there is no God "out there" End3.

 

So this takes us to degrading humanity as you say I am doing. I don't think it was the original intent of God to create an immoral being, and I don't believe that myself. I do think it is choice by humans to decide whether they want to be moral people.

 

Certainly, there are people, including me, that often have trouble finding the best in others, but I am a firm believer that God gives each person a special way to manifest His love, that is, find a moral way to treat others, through ourselves and through his human creation. I also think that no one person is strong enough to stand against the counter force (yes, this would be the evil debil), that makes us unable to manifest this love in more than just brief glimpses. I would deem these ways as Spiritual gifts, to be manifested physically.

 

You say above that humans have a choice and can decide to be good, implying that they have the power to do so themselves. However, you contradict yourself in the second paragraph by saying "no one person is strong enough to stand against the counter force (the devil)."

 

Even if God and the Bible might be make believe, would it not serve us better to put the "enemy" on some other side than humanity?

 

I don't see how it would serve us better End. Making a human problem into a spiritual warfare problem? Does that solve it End?

 

Again, I don't see that the problem is in the inherent creation of man by God, but a lack of grace for each other by the choices we make.

 

I don't see the proof for a creator God. What do you mean by "a lack of grace for each other"? Are you just saying we should be more tolerant of others?

 

Small edit: there is nothing wrong with the pushing, it is how we push/treat/understand, I was banned for a month from here for a drunken tirade in chat. GH is currently taking a "time out" for what I would suspect as "showing his love" to harshly, as did I. We are diametrically opposed in belief, so why then does it work the same......and who among us can accurately be the judge of all this?

 

Things do get tough around here sometimes, End3, for me also, even though I am not a Christian. We all have strong personal beliefs and to see them challenged and even ridiculed is not easy. I guess the only "judges" we have here are the Moderators, End3.

[Kuroikaze]

"How is this reasoning any different than Adolf Hitler? Why is it immoral for a human dictator to demand us to worship them but it is moral for us to worship a divine dictator?"

 

Because he is God Neon

 

End3, I believe you will just have to accept, that we find this sort of thinking repugnant, and for many of us (including me) it was our refusal to accept this sort of thinking that caused us to deconvert in the first place.

 

You are free to think whatever you want, but I could never accept such a thing. Might makes right is not a good basis for a moral system, and the fact that Christianity uses it as is bases shows how utterly devoid of value it is for moral instructions.

[Guest end3]

You bring up a good point...such as, if man is created in the image of God, then how can man be corrupt as I profess?.....

 

I didn't say that. My point was that the world today is just as corrupt as in Old Testament Bible times so why hasn't the rapture occurred? That does not mean that I accept that the nature of human beings is that they are corrupted by sin.

 

So I won't inject anything you have not said, what is the source of evil, or to what do you accredit immorality to?

 

The problem does not lie in humanity, the problem lies in the presentation by humanity as to an explanation for understanding and correcting the behavior(s). Point being, many come to ex-C, IMO, not with a huge problem with the Bible or God, but a problem with religion and people. And then it changes from the behavior of the people, to that of the Bible and God are all screwed...If there were no human interference between God and us, we might certainly view God in a different light.

 

Not sure I understand your point here End. Certainly the problems we have with the Bible and God are human problems. They arise in the human mind and, if you will, spirit. On the other hand, its a fact that many people here have huge problems with the Bible, including myself. We were told the Bible is "God's Word" and infallible. We found out differently. That presents a problem. We were supposed to view God through the lens of the Bible and found out it was only another product of human thought. Understand, End?

 

fair enough, I can live with that

 

You say above that humans have a choice and can decide to be good, implying that they have the power to do so themselves. However, you contradict yourself in the second paragraph by saying "no one person is strong enough to stand against the counter force (the devil)."

 

Let me try to be more clear here...certainly I think we have a choice in the decisions we make regarding choices concerning our behavior, actions, etc...but I think we do a better job corporately in making the choices when we follow the Bible. I would regard Christ as the only one man show to overcome Satan.

 

Even if God and the Bible might be make believe, would it not serve us better to put the "enemy" on some other side than humanity?

 

I don't see how it would serve us better End. Making a human problem into a spiritual warfare problem? Does that solve it End?

 

fair enough, does that solve it?...not so far

 

Again, I don't see that the problem is in the inherent creation of man by God, but a lack of grace for each other by the choices we make.

 

I don't see the proof for a creator God. What do you mean by "a lack of grace for each other"? Are you just saying we should be more tolerant of others?

 

yes, understanding

 

Small edit: there is nothing wrong with the pushing, it is how we push/treat/understand, I was banned for a month from here for a drunken tirade in chat. GH is currently taking a "time out" for what I would suspect as "showing his love" to harshly, as did I. We are diametrically opposed in belief, so why then does it work the same......and who among us can accurately be the judge of all this?

 

Things do get tough around here sometimes, End3, for me also, even though I am not a Christian. We all have strong personal beliefs and to see them challenged and even ridiculed is not easy. I guess the only "judges" we have here are the Moderators, End3.

[Guest end3]

Thanks all for the conversation....I really enjoyed it I think for the most part, we are all where we are and happy with that. If someone has more, I sure don't mind giving it a whirl, but I think this one is winding down...

 

Thanks again

[Ouroboros]

... I guess the only "judges" we have here are the Moderators, End3.

Yea, you better believe it!

 

 

:joke:

[Antlerman]

... I guess the only "judges" we have here are the Moderators, End3.

Yea, you better believe it!

 

 

:joke:

End3 needs to learn how to USE THE DAMNED QUOTE FUNCTION! That was actually Deva above who said this here:

Things do get tough around here sometimes, End3, for me also, even though I am not a Christian. We all have strong personal beliefs and to see them challenged and even ridiculed is not easy.

I guess the only "judges" we have here are the Moderators, End3.

But end3 F*'d it up with his bad use of quoting. (good god... how long does someone have to be here to get that right?)

[Guest end3]

A-Man,

 

See, that is the problem again, you put yourself as God, and once again you are proving just what type of elitist asshole you really are.

 

Quote that...

 

What's the real problem? You couldn't persuade me to come around to your superior thought processes?....Egotistical ass....

[Deva]

You bring up a good point...such as, if man is created in the image of God, then how can man be corrupt as I profess?.....

 

I didn't say that. My point was that the world today is just as corrupt as in Old Testament Bible times so why hasn't the rapture occurred? That does not mean that I accept that the nature of human beings is that they are corrupted by sin.

 

So I won't inject anything you have not said, what is the source of evil, or to what do you accredit immorality to?

 

First of all, what is considered "immoral" is relative and varies from one society to another. Yes, there are certain activities that are probably universally condemned -incest and child molestation, for example. But the tolerance level society has for most "immoral" activities varies depending on circumstances and culture.

 

End3, I don't think there is one source of evil. There are actions I would consider to be evil, such as creating something like the Auschwitz concentration camp. But I think evil exists in the mind of man and it is the result of suffering and ignorance. It is not the result of the actions of a supernatural being such as the devil.

[Antlerman]

A-Man,

 

See, that is the problem again, you put yourself as God, and once again you are proving just what type of elitist asshole you really are.

 

Quote that...

 

What's the real problem? You couldn't persuade me to come around to your superior thought processes?....Egotistical ass....

Don't mistake my boredom as being elitist. You're not offering any sort of challenge that interests me beyond trying to fathom your reasoning processes. What answers you offer are so disconnected from rationality that it's not worth offering further rebuttals.

 

BTW, you do need to learn how to use the quote function better, as it creates confusion about who is saying what, and work for me to clean up after you. Also, don't forget this discussion is in the Colosseum and not the Lion's Den, so your use of language in your temper tantrum above is out of place. There is a Latin term for that.... oh yes...

 

 

 

Carry on....

[chefranden]

Don't mistake my lack of interest as being elitist. You're not offering any sort of challenge that interests me beyond trying to fathom your reasoning processes. What answers you offer are so disconnected from rationality that it's not worth offering further rebuttals.

 

This is why I haven't replied anymore too.

 

For many people the preservation of the status quo is more important than finding out what is real. I fear that "truth" for End is about being true to his god and not about fact finding. For End his god is an axiom and not a finding. Therefore he must find for his god's goodness, no matter what his god has done. If scripture said that God personally fucked 8 year old boys and girls End would actually believe that was ok. All the logic in the world wouldn't convince him otherwise, and will only make him dig his position deeper.

 

On the other hand, End could be a troll.

[Ouroboros]

End3 needs to learn how to USE THE DAMNED QUOTE FUNCTION! That was actually Deva above who said this here:

Oh, damn. It sure did sound like something End wouldn't say, and that's why I responded to it. It was too good to pass up, and ... he didn't say it. *sigh* Damn, damn, damn...

 

And I rarely read his posts anyway, because they usually don't make sense... so when I do... then it wasn't he who said it... *gah!*

[Antlerman]

Don't mistake my lack of interest as being elitist. You're not offering any sort of challenge that interests me beyond trying to fathom your reasoning processes. What answers you offer are so disconnected from rationality that it's not worth offering further rebuttals.

 

This is why I haven't replied anymore too.

 

For many people the preservation of the status quo is more important than finding out what is real. I fear that "truth" for End is about being true to his god and not about fact finding. For End his god is an axiom and not a finding. Therefore he must find for his god's goodness, no matter what his god has done. If scripture said that God personally fucked 8 year old boys and girls End would actually believe that was ok. All the logic in the world wouldn't convince him otherwise, and will only make him dig his position deeper.

 

On the other hand, End could be a troll.

The thing is, this is why someone like this scares the hell out of me. They have no sense of their own moral compass, and can easily be manipulated into performing horrific acts against humanity by any charismatic leader who 'persuades' him through the "holy spirit". All it takes is being cleverly misled to believe it is the God's will, and considering the lack of depth of knowledge I've seen, it wouldn't take much. Classic cult victim, and potential threat to themselves and others. He said outright that he would even kill his own children if he was convinced it was God.

 

This is why all my arguments about "I would rather go to hell with my soul, than go to heaven without it," is a principle that's inconceivable to the one who does not have a sense of self independent from the system they look to for answers. To say the answers lie within, is to send them into blackness.

 

Just when you think there is hope humanity, along comes leaders convincing soulless sheep that "God" is telling them to murder for him. Never mind that God would never need a soldier on earth to do this... that never quite bubbles up to be computed. It's just them trying to define themselves off others. No sense of themselves exists outside that. Nothing to act as an anchor.

 

Two words:

 

"Know Thyself" (Plato)

 

"This above all: to thine own self be true" (Shakespeare)

[Ouroboros]

"Know Thyself" (Plato)

Actually (IIRC) it's a quote from the temple of Delphi, together with "nothing in excess" (the words of the Oracle). Plato very likely quoted it, but not sure (and I think other's quoted it too).

[Guest end3]

140 posts doesn't seem like you people were having too difficult a time understanding....

 

To Antlerman specifically,

 

I believe it was you Antlerman, who willfully participated in the foul language....to my recollection...."coward!", "fucked it up"...etc. are all statements accredited to you in the coliseum, so please, consider Captain Dave has made a piss-poor choice in bringing you aboard, moderate yourself, and resign.

 

I have noticed a lot of you moderating skills as of late...the banning of RXM for knowledge you did not wish to fight, Gramp's for not participating as you would wish him to, and now leaning towards banning an "illiterate" such as myself. Maybe it is your need for control, and people to acknowledge your superior wisdom that doesn't allow for the free speech of others.

 

I'd bet you don't have any children AM, due to your lack of understanding (grace),for others.

 

And towards the argument at hand....Let me give you a simple one...

 

1Cr 13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

 

You cannot even accept that the Bible doesn't hide this statement and tells you that our understanding is incomplete, yet you want all the answers dictated to you so you will not have to accept anything by faith. If you want His answers, ask Him, but I doubt your pride-filled soul would not let you admit to lack of understanding, and you will end up just where you are wishing. You probably don't even acknowledge your parents, if I were betting, the ones that wiped the shit off your ass as a child, as you probably thought you knew how already.

 

And one more for the road....the concept of an omnicient God, one who creates all from nothing, if there is such a being, what are you not understanding? It would be entirely logical for this being to do anything it wanted. Just because you refuse to take the Bible just as it is, even if it were nothing more than a book, clearly tells me you have no imagination or artistic ability. Now that I say that.., I have seen pictures of the interior of your home...

 

Note: So you will understand me completely regarding this last post. Do not consider anything said here to be Rogerian in nature.

 

To you, Aspirin99, and Captain Rogers....

 

Go fuck yourselves......wait, you probably do that already.... and pridefully say it is moral.

[Ouroboros]

I believe it was you Antlerman, who willfully participated in the foul language....to my recollection...."coward!", "fucked it up"...etc. are all statements accredited to you in the coliseum, so please, consider Captain Dave has made a piss-poor choice in bringing you aboard, moderate yourself, and resign.

 

I have noticed a lot of you moderating skills as of late...the banning of RXM for knowledge you did not wish to fight, Gramp's for not participating as you would wish him to, and now leaning towards banning an "illiterate" such as myself. Maybe it is your need for control, and people to acknowledge your superior wisdom that doesn't allow for the free speech of others.

To Antlerman's defense. RXM was banned for trolling, and all moderators were behind it. Gramp's was not banned by Antlerman, and it was also done with an agreement between the mods. Neither of them are on a full-ban, but they're on time-out, chill-out, for a time. When that time is up, they can come back. They just need to calm down.

 

And right now, it seems you're going that direction too. Is it something in the air? What's going on?

 

Go fuck yourselves......wait, you probably do that already.... and pridefully say it is moral.

You're stepping over the line. Take it back a notch.

[Guest end3]

Let me add one more thought that agrees with my premise. If my wife and I died, and it were only you Antlerman left in the world that was left to raise my children....I would pray with all my heart that God take them as well. Do you understand now?

[Ouroboros]

Let me add one more thought that agrees with my premise. If my wife and I died, and it were only you Antlerman left in the world that was left to raise my children....I would pray with all my heart that God take them as well. Do you understand now?

End3, I'm not giving you any more chances, stop, or I'll put you on probation for a week. Seriously. You've been given slack because you've been around for a while, and usually is a kind-of decent guy, but seriously...

[♦ nivek ♦]

Endo..

 

Normally I don't give a shit, and fail to find a reason to 'splain to *outsiders* the why an' whofer actions I take while working for Webmaster Dave and ExC.

 

RXM acted like he has something burning in his rectum, and in turn had to spew that flaming feces all over ExC's new shag carpet. Was in turn asked, then warned, then given a month's time_the_fuck_out.

 

He was certainly not banned from ExC. After that cat has a chance to cool his attitudes down, he might be welcome to participate here again.

 

*I* am the responsible sunsabitch that gave him his vacation from ExC.

 

Already been through the progression leading to his not being here, won't repeat.

 

Will give you a careful asking to cool your excess verbage down lest I find reason to award another months away from ExC.

 

kFL

[chefranden]

...Just when you think there is hope humanity, along comes leaders convincing soulless sheep that "God" is telling them to murder for him. Never mind that God would never need a soldier on earth to do this... that never quite bubbles up to be computed. It's just them trying to define themselves off others. No sense of themselves exists outside that. Nothing to act as an anchor...

I couldn't agree more.

 

This last was going to be my next argument for for End, but then I thought --"why bother."

 

If God wants to end the life of a person or take a child to be with him, why does he use terror to accomplish that end? Why does God need a flood to kill people, just so Peter can later compare baptism to it? I think of Ananias and Saphira, when God didn't like them "poof they was gone". Why drown people slowly? Isn't eternal torture enough already? I think of some poor sod clinging to a mountain top in the Andies trying to keep his kid's head above water going, "hey WTF!?" This guy didn't know Noah from a drink of water, let alone get to hear him preach. And why subject children to being chopped up with swords after watching ma and pa being chopped up?

 

And the Cows, I just don't get the Cows.

 

Ya got to be pretty solidly stuck in faith to consider this good, or a psychopath.

[Antlerman]

Well that was certainly as display of bad manners.

 

For the record End3, I actually have more grace and patience than you can possibly imagine. What harshness I have shown towards you is because frankly, I feel you need to hear some harsh truth. It actually is from compassion I say this. I tend to be a highly empathetic person, and also deeply spiritual as well - despite my rejection of the ideas of traditional gods. You have no idea what you are accusing me of. If it's of any value to you, you may wish to go listen to the music that I compose and perform. This is not something that comes from the heart of a hard rational mind (since you seem to feel for some reason I, "Have no imagination or artistic ability" ): http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?show...c=10097&hl=

 

Not asking you to like it, but I think if you listen you're not going to hear the person you seem to imagine I am. I do have a son, 25 years of age now, and I would call our relationship a loving one despite the long distance apart we have had to endure. I also enjoy deep, long term friendship the newest of which is 7 years, others going back to 27 years. This takes something of a sincere, open person to maintain relationships like this. My parents are the most beautiful people in the world, and they are terribly proud of me as their son.

 

All this to say, "Judge not, lest ye be judged, For with what judgment you judge it shall be meted to you." For one who claims to believe in God, and to have a relationship with him, the fruits of this are in need of attention. You have taken your being upset by the criticims leveled at your beliefs and turned them on me as a person. I guess the only thing I would hope is that this display of yours might be an indication to you that something is broken in your beliefs.

 

Take some time, rest and think about things. I honestly don't think you're a bad person. I do feel though that your beliefs don't help you, and that you could be much more alive and in touch with yourself without them.

[chefranden]

Let me add one more thought that agrees with my premise. If my wife and I died, and it were only you Antlerman left in the world that was left to raise my children....I would pray with all my heart that God take them as well. Do you understand now?

 

Well, Why don't you send them to heaven now? They are bound to run across one of us sooner or later, and we might be able to talk some sense into them. In fact there isn't even any guarantee that you will make it all the way to The End in faith. I'm sure you feel like you would never deny God. I know I once felt like I'd be a Christian forever. Seems like it would be better to go now than take that chance. I took the chance of not checking out early, and now I'm going to burn in hell. Surely the few years you have left aren't worth eternity skinny dipping in the flames with me.

 

Just friendly advice.

[Kuroikaze]

Go fuck yourselves......wait, you probably do that already.... and pridefully say it is moral.

 

I think most of us have been pretty patient with you...for someone claiming to have the moral high ground you would think you would avoid being as overtly insulting as this.

 

Are you going to pridefully say the way you are behaving is moral?