Deva Posted May 4, 2008 Share Posted May 4, 2008 Because we would be just a product of our environment, and we are limited to that environment and we die and are no more. The constant would be that the only result of our humanity is order. Order would be the backbone of the mind, thought, our guilt, emotions. No more. Isn't it depressing? NO, and we don't see that the only result of our humanity is "order". What do you mean by order? We are limited to our environment and we do die. Those are facts. Why need it be depressing? To me it is. If we are basically just a substance of another substance that reproduces and dies; leaving behind generations of history in which our minds have the ability to think about. The process of thought would merely be as I said earlier. Emotionally challenged, or emotionally overloaded. You probably feel that way because Christianity emotionally overcharges and overloads the human brain. Quite frankly you seem overcharged and overloaded. The thought that we are a product of our environment, and in 40-50 yrs I'm going to be dust and thats that; is extremely depressing. It's only depressing because xtianity gives you a bunch of fairy tales to comfort and pacify you. Free your mind and you just look at the facts. So. I observe history of this world and religion, apply the story and concepts of Christ, and hope for life after I die; by having faith that Christ is the living water of life that is wrote in the story. Aside from the atrocious grammar, prove it that Christ is the living water of life. Life is life and no Christ need apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted May 4, 2008 Share Posted May 4, 2008 If his comprehension level is a function of the grammatical howlers and spelling errors, then I don't think he's understanding what he's reading in the bible, just what preachers tell him.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolution_beyond Posted May 4, 2008 Share Posted May 4, 2008 YoYo. I think the perspective of Jean Paul Sartre might be useful here. I've messed around slightly with what you wrote in order to make my point clearer. Because we would be just a product of our environment, and we are limited to that environment and we die and are no more. Isn't it depressing? To me it is. If we are basically just a substance of another substance that reproduces and dies; leaving behind generations of history in which our minds have the ability to think about. The process of thought would merely be as I said earlier. Emotionally challenged, or emotionally overloaded. The thought that we are a product of our environment, and in 40-50 yrs I'm going to be dust and thats that; is extremely depressing. The trick here is that we make our own meaning out of life. That's what free will is about. Unlike animals, who don't really do much thinking about 'why are we here?' - humans have to create their own meaning. We are like a blank slate. Objects we create have a purpose before they have an existence (eg. you need a knife, so you make one - knives exist for the purpose of cutting things) But human beings exist before they have a purpose. This means we get to create our own purpose. It's not depressing at all. It's freedom. Through this need to create our own meaning out of life human beings have created art, film, music, literature, philosophy, science, poetry, architecture, politics, etc etc etc (yes, and even religion) We would basically be like ticking time bombs. Some may even say that makes sense, and maybe thats why 'mankind' created God, as a relief valve for our mental, emotional state of being. Religion is really what Sartre calls 'bad faith'. We don't want to accept that we are totally free to create our own meaning. So we make up lies about someone else who gives us that purpose, someone who tells us what to do and will punish us if we don't do it. Some people just can't accept that they have freedom to act as they will and to create whatever meaning they want. Some people can't handle that they are responsible for their own actions - whatever mess they might make of their own life or other people's. So they invent a God to tell them what to think, what to believe and what they should be doing with their lives. And when they make mistakes then God can clean up the mess, punishing them if necessary. The God-belief might not make them free anymore. But at least they don't have to deal with the responsibility for making their own meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 YoYo Your religion is strict fear and worry. You're afraid of life and how it ACTUALLY is and you and many others apply the supernatural to it in an attempt to give it meaning and purpose. You apply mysticisim to it so you don't have to open up a science book to see how things truely are, but then you are afraid of what little you do know about life. Until you can appreciate life and existence without applying myths to it i really don't know what to say that can change your delusioned mind. Since you are back, why not at least try and counter ANY argument leveled at you in your long absense? Since your return you went right back to doing what you did before, spewing more shit and totally ignoring everything else said by others. How can you expect to be taken seriously around here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manditag in AK Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 personally I don't understand what the problem is.....my mom does, and I always thought that God created evolution. Heck, theoretically he could even put whatever time span on it he wanted, but change and survival of the fittest does seem to be the natural order of things. Why does accepting evolution automatically mean EVERYTHING science says is true? Initially I thought a lot of scientific investigation was merely trying to understand 'God's glorious creation'. Everyone assumed when they learned more of the natural world, at least a long time ago, that they were learning what God did. Why is that so heinous? Furthermore, does that mean you think the christians who believe in evolution are lacking in some way? Personally I don't see why it matters to add one more confusing little tidbit to the bible. I never fully understood it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 Because we would be just a product of our environment, and we are limited to that environment and we die and are no more. The constant would be that the only result of our humanity is order. Order would be the backbone of the mind, thought, our guilt, emotions. No more. Isn't it depressing? Again this "just" thing. If God exists we are "just" his puppets, dancing on strings, limited to his environment and arbitrary will. I can make any state of affairs sound depressing. If you look for the depressing aspects, you'll find some. Get a life. Still. The thought that we are a product of our environment, and in 40-50 yrs I'm going to be dust and thats that; is extremely depressing. So. I observe history of this world and religion, apply the story and concepts of Christ, and hope for life after I die; by having faith that Christ is the living water of life that is wrote in the story. You mean you're scared shitless of life and of death so you'll sit in Plato's cave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 You mean you're scared shitless of life and of death so you'll sit in Plato's cave. you missed out '... muttering, mantra like, Pascal's specious wager...' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 We are like a blank slate Reading Suggestion: The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 Because we would be just a product of our environment, and we are limited to that environment and we die and are no more. The constant would be that the only result of our humanity is order. Order would be the backbone of the mind, thought, our guilt, emotions. No more. Isn't it depressing? If it is heaven that gives existence meaning, why do you hang out here? Is it because you find physical life more sweet than sour? Do you find sunsets beautiful? That is a physical phenomenon you know. Therefore there is no meaning in it, so why bother? Do you honestly think that the love of a good spouse is worthless simply because it doesn't last forever? Would you abandon your children as worthless if you discovered that God was not? If anything has value, it has value right now. The beauty of a sunset is no less for the fact that it lasts only a few minutes. Will heaven be an endless sunset? Then what about the dawn? The joy you receive in the presence of your significant other is right now, and the quickest way to turn the joy off is to wonder how long it will last. What is depressing is to think that this wonderful moment is not wonderful because it is --- well just a moment. Phooey! Still. The thought that we are a product of our environment, and in 40-50 yrs I'm going to be dust and thats that; is extremely depressing. So. I observe history of this world and religion, apply the story and concepts of Christ, and hope for life after I die; by having faith that Christ is the living water of life that is wrote in the story. 40 or 50 years ago you were dust. Did that bother you much? Edit: If it is heaven beyond that gives this life meaning what will give life in heaven meaning? Heaven 2? If it is as God said "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." is life meaningless? If God gave you a dust destiny instead of nature giving it to you, would dust destiny still make this life depressing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted May 6, 2008 Share Posted May 6, 2008 Because we would be just a product of our environment, and we are limited to that environment and we die and are no more. The constant would be that the only result of our humanity is order. Order would be the backbone of the mind, thought, our guilt, emotions. No more. Isn't it depressing? What is sad and depressing is you think the only way to have a meaningful, enjoyable life is to incorporate myths, the supernatural and ficticious bullshit into it. You believe our sole purpose in existance is to glorify god, basically kiss his ass in this life and for eternity afterwards. That is sad and depressing. I don't know about you but being created JUST to praise and worship a god isn't what i call meangful or enjoyable. Especially given the fact that you're doing it all for a made up sky man in a made up fucking sky kingdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted May 6, 2008 Share Posted May 6, 2008 Because we would be just a product of our environment, and we are limited to that environment and we die and are no more. The constant would be that the only result of our humanity is order. Order would be the backbone of the mind, thought, our guilt, emotions. No more. Isn't it depressing? To me it is. If we are basically just a substance of another substance that reproduces and dies; leaving behind generations of history in which our minds have the ability to think about. The process of thought would merely be as I said earlier. Emotionally challenged, or emotionally overloaded. We would basically be like ticking time bombs. Some may even say that makes sense, and maybe thats why 'mankind' created God, as a relief valve for our mental, emotional state of being. Some may say that is why we are made by God. Still. The thought that we are a product of our environment, and in 40-50 yrs I'm going to be dust and thats that; is extremely depressing. So. I observe history of this world and religion, apply the story and concepts of Christ, and hope for life after I die; by having faith that Christ is the living water of life that is wrote in the story. I don't find it particularly depressing, its just reality. Is it depressing that I live the same way every other creature on this world has lived? I'm happy to have the one life I get, I don't need another one after this to make the first one enjoyable. In any case, believing something simply because it is depressing to think it isn't true is not exactly rational. What does any of this have to do with evolution anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted May 6, 2008 Share Posted May 6, 2008 Because we would be just a product of our environment, and we are limited to that environment and we die and are no more. The constant would be that the only result of our humanity is order. Order would be the backbone of the mind, thought, our guilt, emotions. No more. Isn't it depressing? Nope. Rather I found it and still find it encouraging. Now at least I know what I deal with. To try to figure out what an invisible, silent, character that I can only really know through trusting other peoples ideas and my own ideas, instead of being able to test and confirm, is actually extremely frustrating. God of the mind changes by the minute. Your view of God is different today than it was last year. But when it comes to understanding nature and our place in it, even though my view is changing, it is so because of a deeper and more intricate and detailed knowledge, not really replacing the old view, but just confirm it by showing more details. Each theory is built on the previous. Relativity doesn't remove Newton, only explains it to a higher granularity. With religion I remember there were views of God that I had one year, and the next I had to completely forget, because now the idea was that God wasn't such and such, but now he was this or that. No middle ground, and without real evidence, or to be more exact, the only evidence was a book some people (who I don't know personally) wrote 2000 years ago. It takes a lot of trust to only believe the words of a few people you have very little documents about. Science builds on thousands and thousands of peoples voices and confirmed with experiments over and over again. Which one takes more trust? The one with 10 peoples opinions 2000 years ago, or some 100 thousands of people from today? To me it is. If we are basically just a substance of another substance that reproduces and dies; leaving behind generations of history in which our minds have the ability to think about. The process of thought would merely be as I said earlier. Emotionally challenged, or emotionally overloaded. We would basically be like ticking time bombs. Some may even say that makes sense, and maybe thats why 'mankind' created God, as a relief valve for our mental, emotional state of being. Some may say that is why we are made by God. Is it Biblical? Still. The thought that we are a product of our environment, and in 40-50 yrs I'm going to be dust and thats that; is extremely depressing. So. I observe history of this world and religion, apply the story and concepts of Christ, and hope for life after I die; by having faith that Christ is the living water of life that is wrote in the story. I think your faith and religion is based on that fear you have. You can't accept the possibility of being dead and not exist anymore. It is mind boggling, but only if you're able to come to terms to it can you be free from religion. And this mindset, or capability, is not for everyone. Clearly you don't have it, so you need religion to put your mind to peace. In other words, you need the self-deceit to be able to handle life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted May 6, 2008 Share Posted May 6, 2008 40-50 yrs I'm going to be dust A cheering spin on that... so will ever Mofo that's ever pissed me off... nuff to raise a smile on these raddled old features... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 Because we would be just a product of our environment, and we are limited to that environment and we die and are no more. The constant would be that the only result of our humanity is order. Order would be the backbone of the mind, thought, our guilt, emotions. No more. Isn't it depressing? “Richard Dawkins showed that a good way to understand the logic of natural selection is to imagine that genes are agents with selfish motives. No one should begrudge him the metaphor, but it contains a trap for the unwary. The genes have metaphorical motives -- making copies of themselves -- and the organisms they design have real motives. But they are not the same motives. Sometimes the most selfish thing a gene can do is wire unselfish motives into a human brain -- heartfelt, unstinting, deep-in-the-marrow unselfishness. the love of children (who carry one’s genes into posterity), a faithful spouse (whose genetic fate is identical to one’s own) and friend and allies (who trust you if you’re trustworthy) can be bottomless and unimpeachable as far as we humans are concerned (proximate level), even if it is metaphorically self-serving as far as the genes are concerned.†Pinker p. 191 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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