Is it Islamic "extremism" -- or is it Islam itself

[♦ nivek ♦]

Wasn't sure if this was more a newsie or Op-Ed, or a treatsie on religon..

 

Here it is.. Hellova read:

 

kL

****************

 

 

Is it Islamic "extremism" -- or is it Islam itself?

The Reality Check ^ | 10 July 2005 | Robert Bidinotto

 

http://www.therealitycheck.org/GuestColumn...notto071005.htm

 

In the wake of the London bombings, we are forced again to confront this most uncomfortable question:

 

Do the Islamic fundamentalist terrorists truly represent a marginal minority among Muslims worldwide?

 

Or is the term "Islamic fundamentalist" really just a redundancy?

 

I am by no means an expert on Islam. But since 9/11, and countless terrorist incidents since, I have been patiently awaiting evidence that the majority of Muslims worldwide repudiate the premises and tactics of Islamic terrorists.

 

Well, I'm still waiting. And there comes a time when one must finally draw conclusions, however painful, from the facts presented.

 

If there really is some sort of ongoing war between "extremists" and "moderates" for the soul of Islam, it appears to be one of the quietest contests in the history of ideological warfare.

 

Whatever the ancient history of Islam, in distant days when more enlightened thinkers and civilized rulers prevailed, I see precious little evidence that these sorts represent any significant part of contemporary Muslim thinking or leadership. If they do, they certainly haven't been very vocal, or active, about rooting out the terrorists in their midst and repudiating their views.

 

When a supposedly Christian fundamentalist nutcase, Eric Rudolph, bombed U. S. abortion clinics and gay nightclubs, he was forced to live a marginal, virtually reclusive life hiding in a remote rural area.

 

Not so Muslim terrorists, who arise from even from the upper classes of Muslim nations by the tens of thousands, and find vast social infrastructures of sympathizers -- including governments -- throughout the Islamic world eager to shelter, support and protect them.

 

Where do we see remotely comparable numbers of religious terrorists quoting Confucius? Where are all the Buddhist terrorists? Or Christian, Jewish and Hindu car-bombers? Why, in nation after nation, bloody incident after bloody incident, do we find that those responsible for civilian massacres have been almost invariably nurtured on this so-called "religion of peace"?

 

Where, then, does the global Islamic community really stand on the issue of violence against civilians and non-believers? Inquiring minds want to know. No -- demand to know. Noted New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman, certainly no right-winger, is only one of the latest to call upon Muslims to clean up their own stables.

 

Will they, though? How many years, and how many more bloodbaths, will it take? And how long do we in the West patiently tap our feet, waiting for such reforms in the absence of any visible signs that they are taking place? Don't we have a right at some point to pronounce judgment on the Islamic culture itself?

 

And has that point now come? or even long since passed?

 

Among Western cultured classes, it is, of course, considered bad form to even ask such questions. Such words smack of (shudder!) intolerance -- and intolerance is the only thing intolerable to moral relativists. Let Muslim fanatics shoot babies, bomb nightclubs and buses and subways, chop off the heads of Red Cross nurses, hijack civilian airliners and ram them into civilian office buildings...and their immediate (and only) response is to wail: "How did we drive them to these desperate acts?" Let the victims demand violent retribution, however, and their immediate (and indignant) response is: "Warmongers!"

 

This moral inversion is fueled by toxic philosophy. Thanks to a long gray line of ideological dope-pushers, Western intellectuals, politicians and cultural leaders are addicted to the self-destructive hallucinations of moral relativism, altruistic self-sacrifice, cultural self-loathing and political appeasement of sworn enemies. Self-blame, along with cowardly calls for more "understanding" and "restraint," are their only knee-jerk responses in the face of each new outrage.

 

I wrote about this moral bankruptcy right after 9/11, in an essay titled "Unilateral Moral Disarmament." Sadly, not a thing has changed since I penned those scalding words, which I cite in part for your consideration:

 

No giants toppled the towers of our greatest city, nor drove a metal stake into the heart of our military's command center. No, these atrocities were performed by virtually unarmed, hate-driven midgets, motivated by a philosophy of destruction.

 

Their only power was what we willingly granted them, in large measure because of our own mixed philosophical premises. Our feelings of impotence, confusion and vulnerability are testaments not to the terrorists' strength, but to the ideas that have undermined our own determination, power and will to resist them.

 

More recently, this past May, Bruce Thornton offered his own quite similar assessment of Muslim culpability -- and cowardly Western "tolerance" -- in a brilliant essay titled "Suicidal Tendencies in the West." He closes thus:

 

Increasingly we Westerners resemble the Eloi of H.G. Wells' The Time Machine, beautiful, gentle, highly civilized hedonists whose fate is to be devoured raw by the brutal Morlocks. We are the beneficiaries of a culture created by those before us who forged European civilization in the fires of resistance to Islamic jihad: in Spain, in Sicily, in Eastern Europe, in Greece -- the plunder, rape, slaughter, massacres, sacks, kidnapping, and enslavement perpetrated by the armies of Allah were for centuries fought by those whose names now most Westerners have forgotten or would be embarrassed to claim as their own. Don John, Charles Martel, Leo the Isaurian, Prince Eugene, Montecuccoli, Andrea Doria, El Cid, Sobieski, Charlemagne, Suvorov, Boucicaut, Hunyadi, Fernando II of Castile, Alfonso I of Aragon, Guiscard, Harold Hardrada -- who among us knows anything about the men who fought and killed so that Europe, and Europe's offspring America, today looks like Europe and America instead of looking like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, or Syria?

 

Because of the brutal violence of those warriors against jihad, we in the West today enjoy the luxury of cynicism, cheap irony, effete tolerance, and hedonism. We moral dwarves stand on the shoulders of those giants and spit on their heads, thinking our ingratitude is really an intellectual sophistication superior to the primitive superstitions and naïve ideals that have made our lives of freedom and prosperity possible. Meanwhile jihad by other means -- demography, immigration, terrorism, the oil weapon -- continues apace, at least until the time when a nuclear, chemical, or biological weapon falls into the hands of a modern jihadist and we are returned to the sort of slaughter our ancestors suffered for centuries. Maybe then we'll wake up.

 

Will it take that? Must an entire American city lie in smoking ruins, or its population lay dying in the streets from some plague, before we get serious?

 

In the wake of the London atrocities, there is no time left to mince further words. Or actions. We must begin to place blame where it is due, and respond accordingly. It is time to hold the Muslim world to account for -- at the very least -- condoning the monsters in their midst. It is time for us to reiterate to them the words of moral clarity that President Bush uttered in the smoking aftermath of 9/11: "Either you are with us, or you are against us."

 

And to show them, in blunt action, that we really do mean business.

[nightflight]

Wow!! That was one helluva essay!

[Vixentrox]

It is pretty interesting. I'm quite sure even if terrorists managed to detonate an atomic bomb in an American city, leveling it, there will still be liberals saying it was OUR fault. Terrorists can do no wrong it seems to many liberals.

[TruthWarrior]

It is time for us to reiterate to them the words of moral clarity that President Bush uttered in the smoking aftermath of 9/11: "Either you are with us, or you are against us."

 

And to show them, in blunt action, that we really do mean business.

 

Yeh that'll teach em! More essays! More "words of moral clarity"!

 

The essay was a whole lotta nothing. A big puff of hot air. But it sure does sound good. So Einstien, what's the Final Solution?

 

Its uhh...we'll...er...YA DANG LIBERALS! IT'S ALL YOU'RE FAULT! You have to umm... well we have to do something I tell ya! NUKE EM ALL!

 

Stop you're feet more. Jump up and down more. Scream and yell, tear out some more hair if ya have any. God knows and he ain't telling.

 

Let me think. Think, think, think. Wait I need a glass of water. Ok. Here's an idea, "know your enemy". Anyone know anything about islam? Apparently this guy isn't:

 

I am by no means an expert on Islam. But...

 

And I know I'm not. Anyone else know anything? I was thinking of making a webpage, or more easily finding a webpage that actually explains all wacky sects and doctrines in this crazy holy war. But alot of good that would do. Goobernment would still be tossing dumb bombs at invisble moving targets. Its not a thing you can bomb to get rid of.

 

If fundamentalist christians went nutty in some county [or countries] as islamics are, under their own theocracies and societies, how would you stop them? Hmmm lets tell them to please stop, or else. No wait lets bomb em and whoever shoots or complains back is a terrorist. Toss them a few donuts to make them happy. Or take away their donuts to make them sad?

 

I have no idea. I stink at playing armchair commando. I'd say more good propaganda, better intelligence, more of making happy with the county's civilians that enemy hides under. Fundamentalists dont usually listen to reason, and dropping bombs on them just creates more of them. Maybe lay back on the bombing, increase defense and home? Build a better bomb detector and let a federal employee man the controls? Yeh, that will be a blast.

 

Eventually I do believe it will die off, literally. Fundamentalism is just going out with a bang. Yeh its the apocolypse, blah, blah blah. Things are changing and the fundies no likey. Worlds too corrupt for them and they cant preach anymore so they resort to crying really loud and blowing themselves up. A big game of Taliban Twister. Eventually no one will be left to play, or want to.

[Japedo]

Must an entire American city lie in smoking ruins, or its population lay dying in the streets from some plague, before we get serious?

 

In the wake of the London atrocities, there is no time left to mince further words. Or actions. We must begin to place blame where it is due, and respond accordingly. It is time to hold the Muslim world to account for -- at the very least -- condoning the monsters in their midst. It is time for us to reiterate to them the words of moral clarity that President Bush uttered in the smoking aftermath of 9/11: "Either you are with us, or you are against us."

 

And to show them, in blunt action, that we really do mean business.

 

 

Sorry, But I disagree with the premise of the "Fear motive". The saying ' Ignorance Breeds hate' should be a rule of thumb for supporters of this and any war. The Presidents with us or against us mentality leave very little room for honest questions and investigations. For if you question you must be against him, and if you're against him you must be against America. This state of mind causes paranoia, and labels people who questions as "Anti-American" or "Terrorist sympathizers" and it's nothing but propaganda to force support for a sham unlawful war.

 

The London bombings... First reports they were home-made devices, then later they were expert difficult ones which were timed to go off at the same time, then again, we're back at; they were home made simple ones and the terrorist supposedly died. The "Facts" keep changing like the time, to many facts out there same as all the reasons to go to war with Iraq. There were so many reasons that ALL reasons stated are now denied or pointed into another direction. Information over load is how it works these day's and one of them MIGHT be the truth. (? WTF?)

 

Sorry, I do not trust the Media, and I do not trust the government who blantly admits they use propaganda for the facts of the matter. I look how 'non-believers' are painted in the press. I'm completely skeptical about this supposes "WAR" and all of the reasons that go with it. Who's to say it's a Muslim and for Muslims reasons? Italy and Great Britain were having talks about withdrawing out of Iraq, can I be so bold to ask the question what purpose would it serve the Muslims attacking Great Britain? Italy has since given their pull out dates. Are we thinking people to believe al qadia was behind this? The boogie men no one knows or sees? What about other terrorist cells that have nothing to do with Al qadia? Has the IRA been investigated or even talked about? Questions aren't answerd and huge assumptions are being based on fear, that's the first sign to me that Mob mentality is being controlled.

 

 

If we don't know much about Muslims, I guess it's about time we start learning instead of writing articles based on what we perceive to be true?

[nightflight]

Sigh.

 

You know people, not everything is white and black. A person can be concerned, very concerned about the Islamic threat and still not support Bush's war in Iraq. I'm proof of that, and I'm not alone. The very reason I don't support Bush is because he does not take the Islamic threat seriously. This has put me in a real bind. I can't support my president, but I will not join with his detractors who think that joining hands and singing kumbaya will keep us safe.

[Japedo]

Sigh. 

 

You know people, not everything is white and black.  A person can be concerned, very concerned about the Islamic threat and still not support Bush's war in Iraq.  I'm proof of that, and I'm not alone.  The very reason I don't support Bush is because he does not take the Islamic threat seriously.  This has put me in a real bind.  I can't support my president, but I will not join with his detractors who think that joining hands and singing kumbaya will keep us safe.

 

Who wants to sing kumbaya? Not many people that I see.

 

War can only be declared against another government. War can not be declared against an idea or Tactic. Which is what W and Co. are trying to do.

 

The evidence that I have seen has the House of Saudi behind (Funding and otherwise) terrorist activities. They are also considerd by the US Government as our biggest allies. W is seen holding hands with them and declaring war on terrah on countries that don't have the capability of fighting back. There is BS in what were being told here. It is clear by the actions of the Powers that be that's the case. The Job of the United States is not to spread Freedom either.

 

We are to Defend and Protect what is ours YES, I believe that absolutely. We are not to nation build and dictate to the world how they are to Live and what's theirs. That's it in a nut shell.

[Thurisaz]

It is pretty interesting.  I'm quite sure even if terrorists managed to detonate an atomic bomb in an American city, leveling it, there will still be liberals saying it was OUR fault.  Terrorists can do no wrong it seems to many liberals.

 

I wouldn't say that "liberals" think terrorists don't do the wrong thing when they kill. Of course I may be misinterpreting what I understand to be US liberalism, but... I'd say that the terrorists of course commit barbaric and criminal acts, although those by whom they feel provoked/compelled share the responsibility.

 

It's a difficult thing to decide "correctly". And it starts already by merely defining what "correctly" means.

[nightflight]

Who wants to sing kumbaya? Not many people that I see.

 

Those who preach "understanding" do. I don't need to understand the motivations of these killers.

 

War can only be declared against another government. War can not be declared against an idea or Tactic. Which is what W and Co. are trying to do.

 

I wish people would have thought that when Johnson declared war on poverty. But are you saying that Islamic terrorism is not a legitimate target? Yes, we can declare war on this movement using different tactics; force when necessary, economic sanctions, awareness, immigration policies...........what we cannot do is sit back and continually point the finger at ourselves and wonder "why they hate us".

 

We are to Defend and Protect what is ours YES, I believe that absolutely. We are not to nation build and dictate to the world how they are to Live and what's theirs. That's it in a nut shell.

 

I agree. We should only get involved and risk American lives when America is at risk. So no more Somalias, no more Haitis, and no more actions in the Balkans, and definately no more Middle Eastern conflicts that don't directly serve in the fight agains Islamic Terror.

[Japedo]

Those who preach "understanding" do.  I don't need to understand the motivations of these killers.

 

 

Even if it's because of our own policies why they are killing?  Who Trained Osama against the evil Russians?    Who Trained Saddam?  Saddam at one time assassinated his own daughters husbands to prove his 'loyalty' to the United States.  Who's training people now?  Who's being held accountable for training them, giving them aid, and what not?  How did they become the 'monsters' we all know today? 

People refuse to study the history of What this war is really about.

 

 

Iraqi President Saddam Hussein greets Donald Rumsfeld, then special envoy of President Ronald Reagan, in Baghdad on December 20, 1983. The US regime secretly supplied Iraq with CBW agents and other military equipment used in internal repression. It is believed that US-supplied helicopeters were used in the 1988 chemical attack on the Kurdish village Halabja, which killed 5000 people

 

I wish people would have thought that when Johnson declared war on poverty.  But are you saying that Islamic terrorism is not a legitimate target?  Yes, we can declare war on this movement using different tactics; force when necessary, economic sanctions, awareness, immigration policies...........what we cannot do is sit back and continually point the finger at ourselves and wonder "why they hate us". 

 

nightflight, War on a person(s), or Idea, won't work.  You can never "DEFEAT" a tactic.  You especially can't stop someone from dying for a cause, only way to stop it really is to educate.  They view us as a Great Satan for reasons, Not because they hate us for our freedom, but because we demand that they take our brand of Freedom and live like we do.      The ME people want us out of their business, they want us out of their land.  They like their tribal mentality, their comfortable with it.    Reading world news we are not liked because we are arrogant, we believe we have all the answers.  This is not the same America it was back in WW 2.  Today's America  is on the same level as Rome once was.  Where you either fight with us or  be defeated, we have an extremely fascists mentality as Americans today.  I love my Country, I however refuse to support Fascism on any level.  Fascism is not an American value, even if it is being advertised as such.    I believe only we the People can put a stop to this nonsense by Removing the participants from power and holding our own government accountable.  The American people are so blinded by fear they  are removing  logic and reason for war.

 

I agree.  We should only get involved and risk American lives when America is at risk.  So no more Somalias, no more Haitis, and no more actions in the Balkans, and definately no more Middle Eastern conflicts that don't directly serve in the fight agains Islamic Terror.

 

We are not the world's babysitters.  We are not the world's Dictators either.  Bring our Guys home to defend our home here.  If the war was for the reasons the government states, they would address the illegal immigrant issues, they would not create unconstitutional laws to infringe  on Americans (Patriot Act).  These laws don't effect any 'terrorist'.    I have a question to ask, and it's only a question, take it how ever you wish. 

 

hypothetically, What would you do if people of Islam  in the ME believed they were fighting a "War on Terror", and we were the Terrorist?  Would you agree that they are right, or be horrified and state they are very  wrong?  What if they showed you pictures of bombed busses, and buildings were innocent people died?  How are you going to answer or justify  that? 

 

[Druid]

Wasn't sure if this was more a newsie or Op-Ed, or a treatsie on religon..

 

Here it is..  Hellova read:

 

kL

****************

Is it Islamic "extremism" -- or is it Islam itself?

The Reality Check ^ | 10 July 2005 | Robert Bidinotto

 

http://www.therealitycheck.org/GuestColumn...notto071005.htm

 

In the wake of the London bombings, we are forced again to confront this most uncomfortable question:

 

Do the Islamic fundamentalist terrorists truly represent a marginal minority among Muslims worldwide?

 

Or is the term "Islamic fundamentalist" really just a redundancy?

 

I am by no means an expert on Islam. But since 9/11, and countless terrorist incidents since, I have been patiently awaiting evidence that the majority of Muslims worldwide repudiate the premises and tactics of Islamic terrorists.

 

Well, I'm still waiting. And there comes a time when one must finally draw conclusions, however painful, from the facts presented.

 

If there really is some sort of ongoing war between "extremists" and "moderates" for the soul of Islam, it appears to be one of the quietest contests in the history of ideological warfare.

 

Whatever the ancient history of Islam, in distant days when more enlightened thinkers and civilized rulers prevailed, I see precious little evidence that these sorts represent any significant part of contemporary Muslim thinking or leadership. If they do, they certainly haven't been very vocal, or active, about rooting out the terrorists in their midst and repudiating their views.

 

When a supposedly Christian fundamentalist nutcase, Eric Rudolph, bombed U. S. abortion clinics and gay nightclubs, he was forced to live a marginal, virtually reclusive life hiding in a remote rural area.

 

Not so Muslim terrorists, who arise from even from the upper classes of Muslim nations by the tens of thousands, and find vast social infrastructures of sympathizers -- including governments -- throughout the Islamic world eager to shelter, support and protect them.

 

Where do we see remotely comparable numbers of religious terrorists quoting Confucius? Where are all the Buddhist terrorists? Or Christian, Jewish and Hindu car-bombers? Why, in nation after nation, bloody incident after bloody incident, do we find that those responsible for civilian massacres have been almost invariably nurtured on this so-called "religion of peace"?

 

Where, then, does the global Islamic community really stand on the issue of violence against civilians and non-believers? Inquiring minds want to know. No -- demand to know. Noted New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman, certainly no right-winger, is only one of the latest to call upon Muslims to clean up their own stables.

 

Will they, though? How many years, and how many more bloodbaths, will it take? And how long do we in the West patiently tap our feet, waiting for such reforms in the absence of any visible signs that they are taking place? Don't we have a right at some point to pronounce judgment on the Islamic culture itself?

 

And has that point now come? or even long since passed?

 

Among Western cultured classes, it is, of course, considered bad form to even ask such questions. Such words smack of (shudder!) intolerance -- and intolerance is the only thing intolerable to moral relativists. Let Muslim fanatics shoot babies, bomb nightclubs and buses and subways, chop off the heads of Red Cross nurses, hijack civilian airliners and ram them into civilian office buildings...and their immediate (and only) response is to wail: "How did we drive them to these desperate acts?" Let the victims demand violent retribution, however, and their immediate (and indignant) response is: "Warmongers!"

 

This moral inversion is fueled by toxic philosophy. Thanks to a long gray line of ideological dope-pushers, Western intellectuals, politicians and cultural leaders are addicted to the self-destructive hallucinations of moral relativism, altruistic self-sacrifice, cultural self-loathing and political appeasement of sworn enemies. Self-blame, along with cowardly calls for more "understanding" and "restraint," are their only knee-jerk responses in the face of each new outrage.

 

I wrote about this moral bankruptcy right after 9/11, in an essay titled "Unilateral Moral Disarmament." Sadly, not a thing has changed since I penned those scalding words, which I cite in part for your consideration:

 

No giants toppled the towers of our greatest city, nor drove a metal stake into the heart of our military's command center. No, these atrocities were performed by virtually unarmed, hate-driven midgets, motivated by a philosophy of destruction.

 

Their only power was what we willingly granted them, in large measure because of our own mixed philosophical premises. Our feelings of impotence, confusion and vulnerability are testaments not to the terrorists' strength, but to the ideas that have undermined our own determination, power and will to resist them.

 

More recently, this past May, Bruce Thornton offered his own quite similar assessment of Muslim culpability -- and cowardly Western "tolerance" -- in a brilliant essay titled "Suicidal Tendencies in the West." He closes thus:

 

Increasingly we Westerners resemble the Eloi of H.G. Wells' The Time Machine, beautiful, gentle, highly civilized hedonists whose fate is to be devoured raw by the brutal Morlocks. We are the beneficiaries of a culture created by those before us who forged European civilization in the fires of resistance to Islamic jihad: in Spain, in Sicily, in Eastern Europe, in Greece -- the plunder, rape, slaughter, massacres, sacks, kidnapping, and enslavement perpetrated by the armies of Allah were for centuries fought by those whose names now most Westerners have forgotten or would be embarrassed to claim as their own. Don John, Charles Martel, Leo the Isaurian, Prince Eugene, Montecuccoli, Andrea Doria, El Cid, Sobieski, Charlemagne, Suvorov, Boucicaut, Hunyadi, Fernando II of Castile, Alfonso I of Aragon, Guiscard, Harold Hardrada -- who among us knows anything about the men who fought and killed so that Europe, and Europe's offspring America, today looks like Europe and America instead of looking like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, or Syria?

 

Because of the brutal violence of those warriors against jihad, we in the West today enjoy the luxury of cynicism, cheap irony, effete tolerance, and hedonism. We moral dwarves stand on the shoulders of those giants and spit on their heads, thinking our ingratitude is really an intellectual sophistication superior to the primitive superstitions and naïve ideals that have made our lives of freedom and prosperity possible. Meanwhile jihad by other means -- demography, immigration, terrorism, the oil weapon -- continues apace, at least until the time when a nuclear, chemical, or biological weapon falls into the hands of a modern jihadist and we are returned to the sort of slaughter our ancestors suffered for centuries. Maybe then we'll wake up.

 

Will it take that? Must an entire American city lie in smoking ruins, or its population lay dying in the streets from some plague, before we get serious?

 

In the wake of the London atrocities, there is no time left to mince further words. Or actions. We must begin to place blame where it is due, and respond accordingly. It is time to hold the Muslim world to account for -- at the very least -- condoning the monsters in their midst. It is time for us to reiterate to them the words of moral clarity that President Bush uttered in the smoking aftermath of 9/11: "Either you are with us, or you are against us."

 

And to show them, in blunt action, that we really do mean business.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Signed: Joesph Goebbels.

[nightflight]

I agree that America gets in to the world's business too much. But the moslem world would hate us no matter what. Why is it that they target the West? Why don't they ever go after their own despotic leaders? Why aren't there bombings in Damascus or Cairo?

 

Personally, I hate Bush for getting us involved in Iraq. I think that Iraq was on the table even before Bush was elected. However, that does not negate the Islamic threat that is out there. We are in danger. Our efforts should be defense against that. Problem is that so many in the West are introspective and guilt-ridden. Europe is probably toast, seeing how they bend over backwards to be "tolerant" of people who openly call for the destruction of their cultures. Hell, there is even an idiot college professor in Norway who says that women should not complain if they are the victims of rape by Moslem men; they should be "understanding". With attitudes like this, we are sure to be bowing towards Mecca in 50 years.

 

"Norwegian women must take their share of responsibility for these rapes" [because Muslim men found their manner of dress provocative]. "Norwegian women must realize that we live in a multicultural society and adapt themselves to it."

 

Unni Wikan

[Amethyst]

It is pretty interesting. I'm quite sure even if terrorists managed to detonate an atomic bomb in an American city, leveling it, there will still be liberals saying it was OUR fault. Terrorists can do no wrong it seems to many liberals.

 

Sigh...please do not paint all liberals like this. This is a stereotype, true, but not all liberals fall into this category. I don't see ANYONE saying that terrorists do no wrong. It should be obvious to even the youngest child that terrorists do awful things.

 

War can only be declared against another government. War can not be declared against an idea or Tactic. Which is what W and Co. are trying to do.

 

Aren't the terrorists declaring war against democracy and freedom in general, as well as on those who don't share their extremist beliefs? Perhaps I am completely clueless here, but this is what it seems like to me, from everything I have read. Therefore, they are declaring war against ideas -- ideas they don't like. That's why they're not only targeting the U.S., but Great Britain and other countries as well.

 

There is BS in what were being told here. It is clear by the actions of the Powers that be that's the case. The Job of the United States is not to spread Freedom either.

 

True, but apparently it is in Bush's fantasy world of cowboys and Indians.

 

"Norwegian women must take their share of responsibility for these rapes" [because Muslim men found their manner of dress provocative]. "Norwegian women must realize that we live in a multicultural society and adapt themselves to it."

 

Unni Wikan

 

I agree that this is total and complete bullshit, and I'm getting sick to death of idiots saying stuff like this to justify it. Rape is NEVER justified.

[Vixentrox]

Nither is suicide bombing buses, trains, American soldiers passing out candy to kids, police stations, assisinating diplomats, taking hostages and cutting thier heads off and all the other wonderful things that terrorists love to do.

[Japedo]

I agree that America gets in to the world's business too much.  But the moslem world would hate us no matter what.  Why is it that they target the West?  Why don't they ever go after their own despotic leaders?  Why aren't there bombings in Damascus or Cairo? 

 

 

They do, They are extremely Tribal, and have a tribal mentality.  Saddam refused to allow the Muslim culture run his country and despised the 'fanatics' women could hold jobs, drive, and what not over in Iraq.    Other  Muslim Leaders detested him for that.

 

Not All Muslims want to Kill Americans, Many Muslims are Americans themselves.  The Afghani leader there just Survived an Assassination Attempt last Oct.  Each Tribe wants to rule the countries.  Saudi Arabia has what they (Certain tribes) consider holy lands that some of our bases  are on. 

You are under the impression that they just hate us for no reason, does that make sense?  Hate is a deep intense emotion that needs fuel to feed it.

 

Personally, I hate Bush for getting us involved in Iraq.  I think that Iraq was on the table even before Bush was elected.  However, that does not negate the Islamic threat that is out there.  We are in danger.

 

I detest the man for many reasons, He's done more to annihilate the constitution and Bill of  Rights then any sitting president  before him.

We are in danger from Asteroids, Pissed off North Korean men , KKK members, Fanatical Religious Zealots of the Christian persuasion, Amrageddonites,  the list is endless the world is full of Dangers.  There is no escaping that reality.  Ben Franklin once said, Those that  surrender Liberty for Security, Deserve Neither Liberty Or Security.

 

 

Our efforts should be defense against that.  Problem is that so many in the West are introspective and guilt-ridden.  Europe is probably toast, seeing how they bend over backwards to be "tolerant" of people who openly call for the destruction of their cultures.

 

You can't base decisions that kill or mame  people (war)  based upon might be's and probablys.  In order to Defend there must  first be an action.  A pre-Emptive Strike is an attack first move, not a defense.    Reality is this

 

The American Border is not being Protected, Millions of illegal are here living off tax payer monies, getting drivers licenses, working under the table and not paying their share of taxes.  With  this influx of massive illegal immigration  I'm sure 'terrorist' slip thru the boarders all the time.  This issue isn't at all being addressed by the government, why not?

 

The Patriot act has been used against Americans time and Time again and has not  been used one time for 'terrorist' reasons, It states time and time again Terrorist  and "OTHER" crimes, it loosly defines what those crimes are, (Money launderying, Computer crimes, and goes on about other crimes) So it could be anything really. 

 

The definitions of a terrorist is so loosely based that it's up to anyone's interpretation.

 

State Department definition, Title 22 of the U.S. Code, Chapter 38, Section 2656f(d): premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience.

 

FBI definition: the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.

 

Defense Department definition:  the calculated use, or threatened use, of force or violence against individuals or property to coerce or intimidate governments or societies, often to achieve political, religious, or ideological objectives.

 

United Nations definition: any act intended to cause death or serious bodily injury to a civilian, or to any other person not taking an active part in the hostilities in a situation of armed conflict, when the purpose of such act, by its nature or context, is to intimidate a population, or to compel a government or an international organization to do or to abstain from doing any act. Article 2 ( b ) of International Convention for the Suppression of the Financing of Terrorism, May 5, 2004) 

 

It is so lose infact that it actually breaks the first amendment with the association clause. For examples,  Pro-Second amendment supporter?  Green Peace Supporter?  Animal activist? Environmentalist?  Anti-Christian (You get my jest) If any person belonging to a group commits an act of 'terror', the way the Patriot act is written is, all members associated  to that group could be 'detained' for being terrorist.  Very dangerous legislation that has been passed because people believe it will protect them from a Muslim terrorist.  let me also share this with you,

 

The only protected class of people in the Patriot act is listed are Muslims. NO other group is singled out for protection.

 

TITLE I  SEC. 102. SENSE OF CONGRESS CONDEMNING DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ARAB AND MUSLIM AMERICANS.

 

  Hell, there is even an idiot college professor in Norway who says that women should not complain if they are the victims of rape by Moslem men; they should be "understanding".  With attitudes like this, we are sure to be bowing towards Mecca in 50 years.

 

"Norwegian women must take their share of responsibility for these rapes" [because Muslim men found their manner of dress provocative]. "Norwegian women must realize that we live in a multicultural society and adapt themselves to it."

 

The guy is a bastid, perhaps he should be raped and just learn to 'deal',  and be responsible for it.  I don't agree how women are treated in Muslim nations, It's barbaric.  I'm not an advocate for Muslims, I have zero influence in the Muslim world and as a women would probably be shot on site for my mouth and contempt I show to their culture.    however I do advocate that it's not the United States Job  to baby-sit and shape the world to what makes us feel comfortable.

 

 

[Sokudo Ningyou]

Give me a break. Terrorists are terrorists even if they're Muslim or Christian. Timothy McVay was a white boy terrorist. Does that mean we should destroy all white hick Christians because one crazy motherfucker decided to go all the way with his heinous plot? Fuck no. That's the Bush mentality. Killing everyone who looks or even shares a random common theme with a terrorist doesn't solve the fucking problem; it just creates more sympathy, more terrorists willing to attack, and more damn problems. This is not difficult to grasp.

 

Yes, Muslim extremists are the ones who attacked us. Mostly Saudi Arabian Muslim extremists under the name of "Al Qaeda." Remember them? Curiously, we seem to have forgotten them thanks to Bushie's quest to Get Revenge For Daddy. The entire point of us being in Iraq has been bullshit from the start, because Saddam didn't give two shits about us; he was acting like the big dick to keep Iran from invading his ass. Fuck, I knew that before they even posted some of his interrogation in the paper. In an environment like the Middle East, you don't sit on your hands when you know you've pissed off the neighbors; you keep up the act of being a strong, badass motherfucker. And that's exactly what he did.

 

Religion itself is a bad influence, no doubt. But just like the few good Christians who actually don't try to convert everyone to their religion or brand them as heathens, there's Muslims doing the same thing. There's Muslims in the US who are appalled at what the terrorists are doing; should we apply the same "no more leniancy" tactic to them as well? Should we lock them up in camps like we did the Japanese-Americans during WWII? I'd hope not.

[Japedo]

Aren't the terrorists declaring war against democracy and freedom in general, as well as on those who don't share their extremist beliefs?  Perhaps I am completely clueless here, but this is what it seems like to me, from everything I have read.  Therefore, they are declaring war against ideas -- ideas they don't like.  That's why they're not only targeting the U.S., but Great Britain and other countries as well.

 

911 was an act of war yes. However they terrorist  haven't   declared war against democracy and freedom. That's what bush say's, I don't believe that to be true though.    How can the biggest super power in the world declare war on 19 people that died? What's the full number of 'al qada'? does anyone even know?  say their are 1,000 people, how can a country declare war on 1,000 people all spaced out all over the globe?  They are no army they are civilians,  they don't wear uniforms, they serve no government are we going to assume everyone is a member of al qada until proven otherwise?  how is it going to be done?

 

What about all the answers the family's of the 911 victims asked the 911 investigative commissions that have YET to even be answered?  I also ask why the media isn't running these extremely important questions 24-7, doesn't anyone want the answers?

 

Family Steering Committee Testimony

 

questions the Family Steering Committee has submitted to the 9/11 Commission

 

Until these horrific questions are answerd fully, I'm not buying anyone hates us for our freedom. 

[TruthWarrior]

Here's is Osama Bin Laden's from 1998. Some excerpts:

 

What is the meaning of your call for Muslims to take arms against America in particular, and what is the message that you wish to send to the West in general?

 

The call to wage war against America was made because America has spear-headed the crusade against the Islamic nation, sending tens of thousands of its troops to the land of the two Holy Mosques over and above its meddling in its affairs and its politics, and its support of the oppressive, corrupt and tyrannical regime that is in control. These are the reasons behind the singling out of America as a target. And not exempt of responsibility are those Western regimes whose presence in the region offers support to the American troops there. We know at least one reason behind the symbolic participation of the Western forces and that is to support the Jewish and Zionist plans for expansion of what is called the Great Israel. Surely, their presence is not out of concern over their interests in the region. ... Their presence has no meaning save one and that is to offer support to the Jews in Palestine who are in need of their Christian brothers to achieve full control over the Arab Peninsula which they intend to make an important part of the so called Greater Israel. ...

 

We heard your message to the American government and later your message to the European governments who participated in the occupation of the Gulf. Is it possible for you to address the people of these countries?

 

As we have already said, our call is the call of Islam that was revealed to Mohammed. It is a call to all mankind. We have been entrusted with good cause to follow in the footsteps of the Messenger and to communicate his message to all nations. It is an invitation that we extend to all the nations to embrace Islam, the religion that calls for justice, mercy and fraternity among all nations, not differentiating between black and white or between red and yellow except with respect to their devotedness. All people who worship Allah, not each other, are equal before Him. We are entrusted to spread this message and to extend that call to all the people. We, nonetheless, fight against their governments and all those who approve of the injustice they practice against us. We fight the governments that are bent on attacking our religion and on stealing our wealth and on hurting our feelings. And as I have mentioned before, we fight them, and those who are part of their rule are judged in the same manner. ...

 

Many Americans believe that fighting army to army like what happened in Afghanistan is heroic for either army. But sending off bombs, killing civilians like in the World Trade Center is terrorism.

 

... After our victory over the Russians in Afghanistan, the international and the American mass media conducted fierce campaigns against us ... . They called us terrorists even before the mujahedeen had committed any act of terrorism against the real terrorists who are the Americans. On the other hand, we say that American politics and their religion do not believe in differentiating between civilians and military, between infants and animals, or among any human groups. ...

 

Our mothers and daughters and sons are slaughtered every day with the approval of America and its support. And, while America blocks the entry of weapons into Islamic countries, it provides the Israelis with a continuous supply of arms allowing them thus to kill and massacre more Muslims. Your religion does not forbid you from committing such acts, so you have no right to object to any response or retaliation that reciprocates your own actions. But, and in spite of this, our retaliation is directed primarily against the soldiers only and against those standing by them. Our religion forbids us from killing innocent people such as women and children. This, however, does not apply to women fighters. A woman who puts herself in the same trench with men, gets what they get. ...

 

The American people, by and large, do not know the name bin Laden, but they soon likely will. Do you have a message for the American people?

 

I say to them that they have put themselves at the mercy of a disloyal government, and this is most evident in Clinton's administration ... . We believe that this administration represents Israel inside America. Take the sensitive ministries such as the Ministry of Exterior and the Ministry of Defense and the CIA, you will find that the Jews have the upper hand in them. They make use of America to further their plans for the world, especially the Islamic world. American presence in the Gulf provides support to the Jews and protects their rear. And while millions of Americans are homeless and destitute and live in abject poverty, their government is busy occupying our land and building new settlements and helping Israel build new settlements in the point of departure for our Prophet's midnight journey to the seven heavens. America throws her own sons in the land of the two Holy Mosques for the sake of protecting Jewish interests. ...

 

The American government is leading the country towards hell. ... We say to the Americans as people and to American mothers, if they cherish their lives and if they cherish their sons, they must elect an American patriotic government that caters to their interests not the interests of the Jews. If the present injustice continues with the wave of national consciousness, it will inevitably move the battle to American soil, just as Ramzi Yousef and others have done. This is my message to the American people. I urge them to find a serious administration that acts in their interest and does not attack people and violate their honor and pilfer their wealth. ...

[John]

911 was an act of war yes. However they terrorist  haven't  declared war against democracy and freedom. That's what bush say's, I don't believe that to be true though.    How can the biggest super power in the world declare war on 19 people that died?

 

Actually, the primary stated objectives of al-Qaeda are to demolish Israel, crusade American influence out of all Muslim nations (particularly Saudi Arabia since it is the birth place of Islam), and to collapse “non-Islamic” regimes around the ME. Bin Laden has also aforementioned that he wants to merge all Muslims and set up (by forcefulness if essential), an Islamic nation sticking by to the rule of the first Caliphs.

 

According to bin Laden’s fatwa, it’s the responsibility of Muslims around the globe to engage a jihad on the Jews and the U.S. Muslims who don’t recognize this are called apostates. By the way, Bin Laden did make out a “Declaration of War” against the U.S. in 1996.

 

Also, Al-Qaeda has its beginnings in the rebellion opposed to the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. The mujahideen (which amounted in the thousands) were essential in overcoming the Soviets in the Afghan-Soviet War. Osama bin Laden was the moneyman for the organization.

 

What's the full number of 'al qada'? does anyone even know?  say their are 1,000 people, how can a country declare war on 1,000 people all spaced out all over the globe?

 

Al-Qaeda’s leaders manage a slackly coordinated web of cells. It can enroll thousands of radicals around the globe. Each cell works without outside help, i.e., not aware of the identity of other cells. The infrastructure is mobile and not large. However, Al-Qaeda differs from more conventional terrorist organizations i.e. it doesn’t rely on the support of a state. Rather, al-Qaeda functions as a dealership.

 

By the way, there are numerous rogue regimes that support international terrorism (Iraq was one of them, but they were severely damaged during the Gulf War).

 

They are no army they are civilians,  they don't wear uniforms, they serve no government are we going to assume everyone is a member of al qada until proven otherwise?  how is it going to be done?

 

Just let the insurgents roll into Iraq... A few members of Al-Qaeda and the related group Ansar al-Islam (sp?) may be participating (unfortunately most are Iraqi). There are Wahabi fundamentalists who see Iraq as a jihad in the battle against U.S. forces.

[Japedo]

TruthWarrior, John,

 

Thanks so much for the education. Interesting, both of your comments, (Posts)

 

John, You seem to be very aware of things, What's Bin Ladins outlook with the Saudi Arabian Government (Princes) Holding hands with Bush, and acting like iron clad friends? I'd also like the question answered of why the bin ladin family was permitted to leave on 911 and had special military copters picking them up to allow them to leave the country while all Americans were grounded and before any investigations were done?

 

Saudi Arabia is their holy land, and Bin Ladins homeland. I'm just interested in why the Saudi government isn't a target for the 'terrorist cells', they allow much of the US occupation to go on.

 

 

Thanks

[nightflight]

Saudi Arabia is their holy land, and Bin Ladins homeland. I'm just interested in why the Saudi government isn't a target for the 'terrorist cells', they allow much of the US occupation to go on.

 

Bin Ladin opposes the Saudi regime; he bombed a year or so ago the city of Mecca.

[John]

John, You seem to be very aware of things, What's Bin Ladins outlook with the Saudi Arabian Government (Princes) Holding hands with Bush, and acting like iron clad friends?

 

Well, if you can recall during the Gulf War, Bin Laden was upset when the government permitted U.S. troops to be based in Saudi Arabia. Bin Laden volunteered to help support Saudi Arabia, but was snubbed by the Saudi government. Bear in mind, the Saudi government claims legitimacy founded on their function as defenders of the “sacred” Muslim centers (Medina and Mecca). This fired up anti-government Muslims (including bin Laden) since foreign military bases in the country were being established. Bin Laden’s more and more blatant disapproval of the Saudi autocracy led the government to throw him out to Sudan.

 

I'd also like the question answered of why the bin ladin family was permitted to leave on 911 and had special military copters picking them up to allow them to leave the country while all Americans were grounded and before any investigations were done?

 

Oh, the Saudi Embassy dreaded retaliatory action, so they brought the group together with the okaying from the F.B.I. They then took flight to Boston from Los Angeles, and were kept in secrecy. The F.A.A. then allowed overseas flights, so they took flight to Europe.

 

Saudi Arabia is their holy land, and Bin Ladins homeland. I'm just interested in why the Saudi government isn't a target for the 'terrorist cells', they allow much of the US occupation to go on.

 

Well, after the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, Saudi Arabia’s acknowledgment to the Taliban ceased. This definitely stressed relations between Saudi Arabia and the U.S. since just about all of the suspected hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.

 

Also, al-Qaeda has a worldwide base due to its decentralized structure i.e. they have terrorist cells around the world. Many of the top leaders of al-Qaeda are currently in custody or dead due to the invasion of Afghanistan.

 

As for bin Laden’s whereabouts, well his location is unknown, but recent sources within the U.S. intelligence community points to the possibleness that Iran may be holding him.

 

http://washingtontimes.com/national/200506...10148-6143r.htm

[shy1680]

I agree that America gets in to the world's business too much.  But the moslem world would hate us no matter what.  Why is it that they target the West?  Why don't they ever go after their own despotic leaders?  Why aren't there bombings in Damascus or Cairo? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sorry but the Muslim world does not hate the US. Thats like saying all white men are child rapist and murderers after watching all the latest media reports lately. Dont blame over a billion Muslim people for the actions and beliefs of a few thousand.

 

And the suicide bombers and brain-washers of those who are fighting this "holy war" have stated their reasons for hating the US so much. Its stated over and over because of the US involvement in their countries and the US governments finanical support to Israel who is illegally occupying land that belongs to the Palestinians.

 

Letter to the American People from Bin Laden, Nov. 2002

 

Text from Abu Mus’ab al-Zarqawi Letter, it explains a lot about why they are killing so many Iraqi's

 

I read the Haaretz online newspaper which is an Israeli paper and its amazing how much stuff they report on what their own soldiers and citizens are doing to the Palestinians but the US media only reports what the Palestinians are doing to the Israelis, isnt that bias?

 

Its no wonder the US citizens support Israel but the Europeans dont, their media gives more of the truth. Poll on US support for Israel

 

There has been many killings of Palestinians by Israeli soldiers and Jewish terrorist in the last 4 months prior to an 18 year old blowing himself up in a mall as a way of getting the Israeli's back. He stated in his farewell video that he was doing this in retaliation for the recent Israeli violations against Palestinians. Some days I seriously can understand why someone would blow themselves up, the Palestinians are living in hell and no one in the world seems to give a damn about them until they get fed up and began to blow things up. Sad thing is, his death only made it worse on his family because his father was arrested and then several non-militant Palestinians ended up killed and injured in the new attacks Israel launched in the past 2 days.

 

You have to read or watch international news to hear about 90% of whats going on elsewhere if you want to keep informed and know the truth.

 

Jewish Extremist Arrested for Attempted Lynching of 18 yr old Palestinian

 

More on near lynching

[John]

and the US governments finanical support to Israel who is illegally occupying land that belongs to the Palestinians.

 

Oh, we definitely saw this during the 1973 war with Israel... This is certainly cited by al-Qaida as one of the grounds for its battle with the western world.

 

Its no wonder the US citizens support Israel but the Europeans dont, their media gives more of the truth.

 

Israel has a democratic government, so that is a good reason for backing up Israel. Since we have Israel, we have a substantial grip in the region for our own national interests (politically and economically).

 

There has been many killings of Palestinians by Israeli soldiers and Jewish terrorist in the last 4 months prior to an 18 year old blowing himself up in a mall as a way of getting the Israeli's back.

 

Don’t you remember those violent demonstrations known as the Intifada?

 

The only real long-run Arab objective is the total destruction of the Jewish state. Here are statements made by Arab leaders during and coming before the wars:

 

“As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is total war, which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence.”

-Voice of the Arabs radiostation

 

“The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel...to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not declarations.”

-Gamal Abdel Nasser

 

“This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.”

-Abdul Rahman Hassan Azzam

 

“I declare a holy war, my Muslim brothers! Murder the Jews! Murder them all!”

-Haj Amin al-Husseini

 

“The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear - to wipe Israel off the map.”

-Abdur Rahman Aref

 

“Our forces are now entirely ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united....I, as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation.”

- Hafez Assad

 

“If war starts our basic objective will be to destroy Israel.”

-Gamal Abdel Nasser

 

Of course, civil rights and legal status should not be derived from ethnic and religious identity.

[shy1680]

The only real long-run Arab objective is the total destruction of the Jewish state.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Statements like this are INCORRECT and is what helps lead to hate. The Muslim extremist, Muslim terrorist you quoted have a long term goal of the destruction of the Jewish State, its not an Arab objective and also not all extremist want the destruction of Israel. There are millions of Agnostic, Atheist, Jewish (20% of Jews in Israel are Arab), Christian, Pagan, Hindu, Parsi, etc. Arabs who have no desire to see the destruction of the Jewish state.

 

And yes, the goal of the total destruction of the Jewish state is a goal of some Muslim Extremist, and probably some Christian Extremist also, they just know to keep quiet about it.

 

In my dream world I would ban all religions from the world and make loving your fellow human beings the only requirement.