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Goodbye Jesus

Did God Create hell?


Japedo

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  (simonpeter @ Jul 12 2005, 11:00 PM)

 

Suppose you discover that hell is not a creation of God; that, it is a creation of a being, an evil who is only concerned with torturing and murdering mankind. Would your opinion of God change?

 

 

Simon, have your debate here in this forum.

 

:thanks:

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I agree with Vixentrox ..... that is the defintion of the xtian god.

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Well, God Created ALL things didn't he? Are we to believe that Satan created himself and Created his "world" If it were to exist?

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The Xtian god claimed to have created all things INCLUDING evil.

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(simonpeter @ Jul 12 2005, 11:00 PM)

 

Suppose you discover that hell is not a creation of God; that, it is a creation of a being, an evil who is only concerned with torturing and murdering mankind. Would your opinion of God change?

 

No, because according to the bible nothing happens without biblegods approval.  If he choose to allow it, he is just as evil.

 

 

YES thankful which brings the question.

 

Christians hold god to a lesser standard then they do their fellow men. For example.

 

a tiny pipsqueak of a man is beating his child bloody in the street. Neighbors walk out the door and all stand around witnessing the child being beat. All have the capability of saving the child and no one does. Those standing would be Guilty in the eyes of Said Christians (for the sake of argument). However If God chooses to Stand and watch it's excused as a time to grow learning experience or Gods will. What utter BS. Why is God given excuses for his Unforgivable behavior of just standing their watching atrocities daily when he has the capability of stopping them? :twitch:

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its like you people are reading my freaking mind here reading the top of the thread I was gonna say that it seem that we hold our fellow man to a higher standard than we do god

 

damn beat me to the punch :)

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Hell cannot exist, or the benevolant view of God cannot exist.

 

What is hell? Eternal torture.

 

Torturing someone is an evil act.

 

A purely good God cannot committ an evil act.

 

Therefore, a purely good God cannot torture someone with hell.

 

So the Bible is wrong about God or it is wrong about hell.

 

Either God is an evil, twisted, vile bastard capable of committing the evil of torture, or hell doesn't exist.

 

Which is it?

 

And if the Bible is wrong about this (as it is with so many other things) how can we rely on it for anything?

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Hell cannot exist, or the benevolant view of God cannot exist.

 

What is hell?  Eternal torture.

 

Torturing someone is an evil act.

 

A purely good God cannot committ an evil act.

 

Therefore, a purely good God cannot torture someone with hell.

 

So the Bible is wrong about God or it is wrong about hell.

 

Either God is an evil, twisted, vile bastard capable of committing the evil of torture, or hell doesn't exist.

 

Which is it? 

 

And if the Bible is wrong about this (as it is with so many other things) how can we rely on it for anything?

 

Personally, I like to rely upon it as a handy wedge to put under the foot of my bed. Tends to tilt. I don't know about anyone el--wait, you meant as a moral system. Nevermind.

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Just want to add that since eternal torture is for the first time "revealed" in the NT, that Jesus is even more evil than the god they tried to rob.  ...

thankful,

 

The idea of "eternal" in relationship to both hell (and heaven) - is discussed in the MP3 audio talk available from this link: Time and Eternity.

 

I think the idea of hell expressed therein is another perspective (which I don't think has been discussed in this - or any thread on these boards - which I remember reading anyway).

 

-Dennis

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Dennis, I haven't read that link yet but I will.  Just want to clarify, that upon my deconversion I stopped believing in the hell doctrine that many denominations hold as literal.  My remarks about that and anywhere I else that I refer to hell, are to those who hold it as a literal place of eternal torture.

 

Which is an entirely reasonable viewpoint since so many Xtians belive in it as a place of eternal torment. Not only cant Xtians agree on how to get to heaven, that cant even fucking agree what happens if you don't.

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Why did the authors portray God as a sadist? Christians are a walking contradiction! :HaHa: Why does God intentionally create people, so they can fail? One just has to look at the Middle East (or other countries with few practitioners of the Christian faith) as an example of Him (Him or It?) creating people so they can flunk His ridiculous test.

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Dennis, I haven't read that link yet but I will. ...

thankful,

 

Actually the link I provided in the earlier post, was to an MP3 audio file (which you can't read) - since I personally prefer to listen.

 

If you don't want to use the bandwidth and/or would prefer to read first - here is some similar content (though IMO, not nearly as good and/or thorough - due to the limited number of words and lack of voice inflection: Hell - actually it is probably most "fair" if you also read the correlating (similarly small) piece : Heaven.

 

-Dennis

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Personally, I think if there was a god... Hes evil and twisted, and loves making human life as horrible as possible.

No typos? Horray! :D

If God created an angel that fell from his command and became satin, and angels are supposed to be a part of God (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm still young. Hehe.), then doesn't that make God evil?

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The whole piece is worth reading, but this parapraph seems of special interest to me :

 

from Hell (an excerpt from the book Fundamentals of the Faith by Peter Kreeft from Ignatius Press :

...

Jesus says the way to hell is broad and many find it and that the way to heaven is narrow and few find it. And he means it: you don't get to heaven simply by being born, by being nice, or by oozing into an eternal growth experience. But "few" here does not mean that less than half of mankind will be saved. For God speaks as our Father, not our statistician. Even one child lost is too many, and the rest saved are too few. The good shepherd who left his ninety-nine sheep safe at home to rescue his one lost sheep found even 99 percent salvation too "few". The most important question about hell, as about heaven, is the practical one: What roads lead there? They are interior, of course. In fact, heaven and hell may be the very same objective place—namely God's love, experienced oppositely by opposite souls, just as the same opera or rock concert can be heavenly for you and hellish for the reluctant guest at your side. The fires of hell may be made of the very love of God, experienced as torture by those who hate him: the very light of God's truth, hated and fled from in vain by those who love darkness. Imagine a man in hell—no, a ghost—endlessly chasing his own shadow, as the light of God shines endlessly behind him. If he would only turn and face the light, he would be saved. But he refuses to—forever. Just as we can attain heaven by implicit as well as explicit faith ("Saint Socrates, pray for us," says Erasmus), so hell too can be reached without explicit rebellion. This is the terrible—and terribly needed—truth taught by C. S. Lewis in The Great Divorce and Charles Williams in Descent into Hell. We can drift, slide, even snooze comfortably into hell. All God's messengers, the prophets, say so.

...

(I added the bold for emphasis).

 

-Dennis

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Ah, okay, thnx for clearing that up thankful. i still think gods evil an crooked though.

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Personally, I think if there was a god... Hes evil and twisted, and loves making human life as horrible as possible.

No typos? Horray! :D

If God created an angel that fell from his command and became satin, and angels are supposed to be a part of God (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm still young. Hehe.), then doesn't that make God evil?

 

You are a product of your mother and father. If you are caught robbing a bank are your parents responsible? God created his angels with free will just as he did humans. In otherwords, His angels can choose to follow Him or they may leave. Lucifer, His most trusted angel, rebelled and took one-third of God's angels with him.

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You are a product of your mother and father. If you are caught robbing a bank are your parents responsible? God created his angels with free will just as he did humans. In otherwords, His angels can choose to follow Him or they may leave. Lucifer, His most trusted angel, rebelled and took one-third of God's angels with him.

 

 

If there is Free will then what's to rebel against?

 

The Christians Idea of Free will is absurd. If I hold a gun to your head and demand something from you, if you give it to me, is that exercising your "Free will" or is it thru brutal coercion that I got it?

 

This is the same idea as Hell. There is No free will. the gun to the head is Hell, where is the free will?

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You are a product of your mother and father. If you are caught robbing a bank are your parents responsible? God created his angels with free will just as he did humans. In otherwords, His angels can choose to follow Him or they may leave. Lucifer, His most trusted angel, rebelled and took one-third of God's angels with him.

 

Free will? Humans have free will? Damn...I must have lost mine in my memories...

 

<edited for punctuation>

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Soil,

 

I think that's an interesting interpretation of the texts, but I don't hate god, I just don't believe in him...

 

IMOHO

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On top of that, were they in heaven? How can the sin of rebellion exist in heaven? If that sin existed, who says it wouldn't again happen?

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Yes.  However, Satan falling is only a NT teaching, not an Old.  When Satan is referred to in the "proof" text used by mainstreamers, it really, when read IN CONTEXT is referring to Bablyon being fallen not Satan/Devil.  There was never a devil in the Old Testament.

 

You're almost right. The Jews of the O.T. were prohibited to mentioned Satan's name or to make any direct references about him, feeling that in doing do would honor him. Actually, The great Deceiver in Genesis is Satan and Satan is mentioned by name in the book of Job chapter 1. After Jesus came on the scene and publically used Satan's name on several occasions, the writers of the N.T. obviously felt that it was now permissable to use Satan's name and that's why you'll find his name frequently in the N.T.

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You're almost right. The Jews of the O.T. were prohibited to mentioned Satan's name or to make any direct references about him, feeling that in doing do would honor him. Actually, The great Deceiver in Genesis is Satan and Satan is mentioned by name in the book of Job chapter 1. After Jesus came on the scene and publically used Satan's name on several occasions, the writers of the N.T. obviously felt that it was now permissable to use Satan's name and that's why you'll find his name frequently in the N.T.

 

Dang! Is there anything else they didn't mention? :shrug:

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Ah, okay, thnx for clearing that up thankful. i still think gods evil an crooked though.

 

I think it depends on which god you are talking about. Personally, I can't see anything evil or crooked in the teachings of Jesus.

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On top of that, were they in heaven?  How can the sin of rebellion exist in heaven?  If that sin existed, who says it wouldn't again happen?

 

That topic has always interested me as well, even when I was a fundy.

 

Satan was the greatest angel. He was created by god and was close to perfect.

 

What did this perfect, greatest angel see in god that lead him to reason he could win in a war against god? What defect in god's character lead Satan to believe god was defeatable?

 

Further, if Heaven is without sin, then how could the sin of rebellion have occurred in the first place?

 

It, like the majority of Biblical fables, just doesn't make sense.

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I think it depends on which god you are talking about. Personally, I can't see anything evil or crooked in the teachings of Jesus.

 

 

Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has “come not to send peace, but a sword.” Matthew 10:34

 

Jesus explains that the reason he speaks in parables is so that no one will understand him, “lest . . . they . . . should understand . . . and should be converted, and I should heal them.” Matthew 13:10-15

 

Jesus explains why he speaks in parables to confuse people so they will go to hell. Mark 4:11-12

 

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Matthew 15:4-7

 

Abandon your wife and children for Jesus and he’ll give your a big reward. Jesus asks that his followers abandon their children to follow him. To leave your child is abuse, it’s called neglect, pure and simple. Matthew 19:29

 

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark 7:9

 

Luke 12:47 Jesus okays beating slaves

 

More Evils in the bible can be found at:

 

Evil Bible.com

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